Hello,
I’ve been asked to look at building solid oak tables to replace MDF one’s at an upscale Eatery.
I like to use P & L #38 or shellac and rub out the finish & wax for my upper scale cabinets but I know this might not be the right finish for a commercial type hard wearing application.
I’m asking for someone’s experience to set me on the correct path !!!!
p.s. I can only apply a hand brushed or foamed on finnish. No spraying equipment, not an option!
Thank you for your help in advance,
Vance
Replies
Whats wrong with subbing out the finishing to a professional finisher? You do what you do best and they do what they do best.
Try spar varnish or a liquid plastic polyurethane.
Davis Paint has both, but you'd have to find a retailer.
kreuzie
Spar varnish is a very poor choice for restaurant tables. It is relatively soft, and not as moisture resistant as other varnishes. Varnish, including the P&L 38, is the toughest finish that can be brush applied.
But pro-level finishes--conversion varnishes and two part polyurethanes are as tough, but can achieve that toughness at thinner coating rates, which will look significantly better on oak, unless the pores are filled. These just can't be used in small shops because of the chemicals involved.
Guy's,Thanks for all of your input. I'll make up some samples with the P&L #38 and then start beating the finish up to see how it will stand up.I'm sure I can find lots of items in my shop to hammer on the finish to see how much it will take before marks start appear.I thought maybe the P&L might be ok but I haven't put this product thought any heavy scratch tests.Vance
The big issues in a restaurant setting will be heat from hot plates, and spills, most of which are water based. Hot coffee should also be expected.
There shouldn't be too many things beyond that, unless they dispense hard liquor, which would add alcohol to the list.
Hello,Yes I will only use a oil based product for this type of job. It is a nice restaurant, so nothing should be left overnight sitting on the top but you never no what can happen!thanks for the reply,Vance
You might try Behlen's Rock Hard Tabletop Varnish.
I've seen nicely grained oak tabletops with several coats of gloss polyurethane in restaurants. This gives a depth of finish that stands out. Very nice look and pretty easy to clean in that setting.
My personal favorite would be a shellac, varnish and hand rubbed wax combination, but that may not be practical in a high traffic restaurant.
Vance:
I've done a bunch of stuff for ski lodges and have had good success with polyurethane finishes.
Madison
I've been reading everything I can get my hands on about finishing. So I'm a true paper expert <g>. But seriously, my wife and I have been going to an upscale nice italian restaurant for several years and recently I noticed their booth table tops. The booth tables are oversized, three to four people to a bench seat. After reading so much on what to expect from a good varnish finish, I just looked down recently at the table top and realized I was looking at a nice varnish finish. Nice deep dark reddish brown color, and silky feeling. Not sure what kind of wood. The place is kinda dark. There were some dents in the wood but no scratches. Those tables have not been refinished in the past 8 years that I know of. While we have all noticed the quarter inch thick poly on restaurant tables, which I've come to expect, because I don't eat at many upscale restaurants, the varnish was a nice change. Don't know if it was sprayed or not. Probably was but I've read a bunch of articles on hand applied varnish. It's doable. Make up sample and let the client decide.
Sir,
I guess we try and figure out stuff our entire lives!!I'm going to start next week with a few coat of varnish a bit thicker than I normally put on and then start beating the crap out of it with chains and trying to scratch badly, to see how it holds up.thanks for your reply,,
Vance
vance,
There is no need to re-invent the wheel. Oak table top, need to use non-exotic hand methods of application. Need a beautiful and ultra durable finish for a discriminating client situation. Piece of cake.
Use Behlens Rockhard varnish over the oak surface, filled with a silex filler such as Por-O-Pac. The Gold Standard for this kind of thing. As beautiful a varnish as there is, durablility second only (slightly) to exotic epoxies.
Finish sanding the wood (180-220 grit). Stain the oak to liking. Scuff sand (320 grit) any raised grain from the staining step. Seal with a 1# cut of shellac (waxed or dewaxed - doesn't matter). Very lightly scuff sand (320 grit) any raised grain from the shellac application
Fill the pores with dark-tinted Por-O-Pac or equivalent silex filler. Dilute the filler slightly if needed with a little mineral spirits or naphtha, when filler begins to dry, completely wipe all excess from the surface with coarse rags, scraper, per instructions on can.
Repeat if needed.
Apply first coat of Rockhard varnish diluted with equal volume of mineral spirtis or naphtha. Scrub it on in any direction. Don't worry about grain direction. It will completely flow out and penetrate for adhesion.
At least 12 hours later, but not longer than 24 hours, lightly scuff any dust nibs away with 320 grit and apply next coat full strength. Brush in one direction only with the grain, using a full brush. Slightly overlap brush strokes. Don't go back over it. Don't cross brush.
24 hours later lightly remove all dust nibs with 320 grit and very gently level any high spots. Apply second full coat as before.
Wait 48 hours and level all dust nibs and high spots with 320, achieving as uniform a surface as possible with the 320 scratch pattern but don't try to get any difficult "valleys."
Apply last coat, diluted with equal volume of solvent like first coat. Scrub it on in any direction and let it self-level.
Give the finish at least 4 weeks to cure. Don't rush this step! Then gently, but completely level the surface with a sanding block to a uniform, dull 320 grit scratch pattern. It should sand easily to a fine powder with absolutely no clogging of the sandpaper. Follow with 400 grit wet-or-dry using mineral spirits or naphtha as a lubricant, achieving a completely uniform surface at that grit.
Then polish with automotive rubbing compound (red) then polishing compound (white). These steps will go very quickly. Then use Meguiar's Scratch X for a glass-like surface.
The surface will be very hard, but will get still more durable over the next several months.
The table will look beautiful, and 10 years from now will still be in great shape, even with restaurant use. Repairs? Scuff sand and re-apply, then rub out.
Rich
Rich,Wow, thanks for taking the time to type that all up!!!!!!!!!I'll give this a try for sure!thanks again,Vance
vance,You're welcome. What I described is just a generic finishing schedule for an open-grained wood such as oak using pore filler and a high-quality "short oil" (hard) varnish.There are many silex fillers around, but Behlen's Por-O-Pac seems to be the most available. You want to be sure it's tinted dark brown. The only place I see lately that carries a brown-tinted option (called "Mahogany") is Grizzly.If all you can get is the "natural" base color, you can tint it with any oil-soluble dye or pigment. Even artists' oil pigments work well. The color doesn't matter, but it should be quite a bit darker than the wood you're filling.If you apply the tinted filler to unsealed wood, it will darken the wood as well as fill the pores. The color that results may be acceptable, in which case you can skip the shellac step and the staining step before that. But the wood may look muddy doing it that way.It's best to stain first with the stain you want, then seal, then fill.Practice the whole sequence with scraps first, otherwise the final color will be unpredictable.And make sure that you completely fill the pores which may take more than one application of filler. Finishing an opened-grained wood involves deciding whether to leave the pores completely open and using an appropriate finish or completely filling and applying a thick film finish such as varnish. Partially-filled pores under a thick film finish don't look very good.Rich
Rich,I haven't seen that type of finish in my area (canada) but will use something similar from my supplier.
I'm going to visit the client this week and ask him what type of finished look does he except to see on his units and explain to him different and more time consuming types of finishing and there benefits.I'm finding that everyone wants a killer looking multi coat and colored finish but most people are amazed at how many steps it takes to achieve this look. I'm a small one man custom furniture dude who is finding that most people/clients, need to be educated into the world of finer woodworking and explaining to them that China isn't shipping quality items to the showroom for $300.00 bucks for a coffee table.Most of them understand it takes time to achieve quality and are willing to pay for a premium job/unit.Thanks again for your time and replying to me. I find that this forum is a wealth of information and craftsmanship which will do us all good when the Economy slows down further and people will understand that buying quality is far cheaper in the long run.Free trade, ---- that! (sorry, but thats how I feel when I see all of our jobs going overseas so the big guys can just get $$$$er.Vance
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