Replies

1. 
   notDusty | Oct 06, 2003 08:09am | #1

             Hi John ,       Spraying is usually the best way to apply a lacquer finish, if that is not an option and you brush as you speak of , then make sure you are using a product designed to be applied by brush . Deft or Deftco clear wood finish is one type of self leveling finish .Used 220 or similar sandpaper will do a good job of sanding your first coat or two.Keep in mind a good finish is not necessarily real thick . Try to avoid too thick of coats . More thin ones will be better than fewer thicker ones .

                     good luck          dusty

2. 
   withthegrain | Oct 06, 2003 06:25pm | #2

   Hi John,

   I am by no means a finishing expert, but I have had a lot of success with using the spray cans of Deft (which is a lacquer finish). The cans are pretty cheap and have a nozzle that puts out a good pattern. After each coat, I usually apply 4 or 5 coats, I rub it out gently with wet and dry 600 grit paper. Use water as a lubricate and wipe down after each rub out. Wax after the final coat. Like I said, I'm no expert, but for an affordable spray finish without all the equipment and mess its hard to beat.

   Dennis

3. 
   LarryPile | Oct 06, 2003 08:49pm | #3

   Hi John,

   I'm going to try to talk you out of your plan.

   I build Mission and Shaker furniture and use Old Masters Polyurethane varnish, brushed on.  I do a couple of coats and then level with very fine sandpaper, steel wool and then use Briwax.  Why?

   I don't have a sprayer either..and without it, I don't think you're going to get laquer where you want it....you can brush a bunch of it on....but you'll still have to sand and level....probably more than if you use a slower-drying poly that will at least level out some.

   Other than the impracticality (IMHO) is the issue of durability and looks.  Lacquer is good..but I'd never use it for a table top...put a glass of scotch on it, or a clock radio for 10 years...and you're going to have to redo it.  With Poly, that will never happen.

   Finally, there are the aesthetic considerations.  I considered spraying and buffing the lacuqer on my Mission stuff...only to realize that I'd have to fill all of the White Oak pores and then I'd have this highly-refined finish that really doesn't reflect the simplicity and basic design/function that IS the Arts and Crafts tradition.

   I'd be happy to talk further.  My e-mail is:  [email protected]  Also see a website with some of my stuff:  http://www.kesslercraftsman.com

   Good luck!

   L~

1. 
   johnkollar | Oct 06, 2003 11:17pm | #4

   Thanks Larry,

   I have a can of good poly so that is an option.  I know I am still new at this, so I guess I just have to try stuff and attempt to get good at it.  My first piece was a mission style bed, that I finished with poly.  I did everything you are supposed to do between coats and the last coat I buffed the crud out of, with little improvement in the brush marks and drip lines especially the edges/corners of surfaces.  I was going to try Lacquer in hopes that it is easier to work with, given it melts into previous coats.

   Maybe I just have to stick with a finish, get good at using it, then try a new one.  FYI, I would steelwool with 00(fine) between coats, then switched to 0000(u. fine) for the last.  I also tried 600 wet/dry because the steelwool didn't seem to knock down the run lines/brush marks.  I don't know, I feel like a moron.  I get a piece that I assemble well and looking great, then I screw it up in the stain/finishing process.  I have had no prior experience and I get no help on this stuff.  This forum is the first help I have ever got.  So thank you to all for helping me out.  Keep 'em coming because everything helps me out.

   -John

2. 
   Elcoholic | Oct 06, 2003 11:20pm | #5

   If you must brush, use Deft gloss lacquer.  Level each coat or two with a hard block and wet sand with water and 320 or 400.  If the open pores bother you fill them by wet sanding with the oil and make your first coat sanding sealer.  I'm not sure if Deft has a sanding sealer but you can use Lilly and add some retarder and slow thinner if you can find it.  For a high gloss finish level the last coats with 800 and 1200.  You won't have a lot to do from there if you want a high gloss finish.  As one poster suggests a high gloss finish isn't necessarily authentic for Mission furniture but we all likes what we likes.  If you don't like the gloss rub it out with 4/0 steel wool for a satin finish.  Relax and have fun.  If you completely botch it you can wipe it off with thinner and some rags.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   johnkollar | Oct 07, 2003 03:59am | #6

   I have hit a bit of a snag.  This didn't happen until the second top I tried to smooth down before a final coat.  When I am sanding down the lines, block or orbital sander, little flakes are getting kicked up and then reimbedding into the surface.  You can knock them off with your fimgernail but these darn flakes keep flying all over.  Is it my finish that is flaking off or build-up on the sand paper?  How do I fix it?  This is now an uphill battle.

   -John

1. 
   LarryPile | Oct 07, 2003 04:12am | #7

   Hi John,  Are you sanding lacquer down with the ROS?

   If so, sounds like your sandpaper is just clogging up...is your topcoat dry?  If not, sometimes it'll get soft and gum up your sandpaper.

   I read your other comment about wanting to use lacquer to avoid runs....lacquer can run too...the trick with poly and lacquer is use thin enough coats and patiently build it up so a) it doesn't run and b) so it's thick enought to sand, etc.

   I totally agree with you...I've seen woodworker buy the finest wood, use the best tools, take a million hours on joinery..and then use half-baked techniques, materials and equipment to quickly slop some finish on the piece and wonder why they're disappointed.

   Patience and practice...

   Good luck!

   L~

1. 
   LarryPile | Oct 07, 2003 04:37am | #8

   I also forgot to add this:

   If you want to get the best advice and, IMHO, very good materials...go to http://www.homesteadfinishing.com

   Jeff Jewitt is the king.  For Poly, I've used his high-quality (high $$) brush..and it is SOOOO worth it!  If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it!

   L~

2. 
   Elcoholic | Oct 07, 2003 07:10pm | #9

   Sounds like you're rushing it a bit and the runs aren't fully cured.  A 1/16" thick run is 21 times thicker than a 3 mil coat of finish.  The surface skins over and traps the solvent which keeps the run from curing along with the film.  Try scraping the runs level with a single edge razor blade.  Then level the entire surface by wet sanding with a hard block (I like the rubber blocks for autobody work).  The water will help keep the globs from forming.  In reference to your earlier post re: steel wool - it won't level a finish especially one with runs.  Steel wool is good for removing orange peel and very minor brush marks and final rubbing out.

   Purists may disagree (in fact many consider lacquer to be an abomination) but spraying film finishes is really the way to go.  I take it a step further I spray and rubout prior to assembly to eliminate the inside corners.  When you can afford to get a quality HVLP set-up, the learning curve will be short and sweet.  When you think about it, brushes are about as primitive as using shark skin or ground glass instead of sand paper.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

3. 
   jonsherryl | Oct 08, 2003 05:04am | #10

   John, I think you're getting some especially good advice from Ole el Coholic in his last post here. You must let lacquer thoroughly harden before trying to rub it out (even between coats.)

   Personally, I hate the stuff, but often use it...this seeming paradox results from the fact that I make dulcimers and lacquer (for all its faults) doesn't bugger up the tonal qualities as much as do oil based varnishes. It seems to leave a more topical and brittle film on the wood.

   The need to let each coat dry thoroughly (I mean like up to a week or more) before rubbing it out definitely puts a damper on the "quick dry" advantage lacquer claims to have...but frankly, this quick dry feature is really just another lacquer disadvantage all the way around...in that it makes it very difficult to brush on an even coat. If you attempt to work it with the brush (in the same way as a good coat of oil varnish is applied), you'll end up with what is probably best described as a hellofa mess. Lacquer is very difficult to control with a brush. You sort of have to let it flow on from a loaded brush...quickly in one direction...and then just once back so that the brush slightly overlaps the previous pass. This will help eliminate brush marks...But you only get two sucks at the pump to lay it down evenly: once to put it on and once to even it out...and you've got about a combined 3 seconds to complete both passes.

   Lacquer's saving grace (if it has any) is that it is readily soluable in its thinner no matter how long it has cured. This means that subsequent coats bite well, so you can take your time on the earlier coats and work them down well. If fact, if you almost totally remove the first couple of coats getting the surface glass smooth, no harm is done. Also, I've found that slightly thinning (and I mean very slightly...like one part thinner to ten parts lacquer) for the final coat helps a little...Then, for the final rub out, I use pumice applied with a damp rag, just to cut the gloss a bit.

   I can afford to baby the finish along like this on small projects like my dulcimers...but on a major piece, like a dining table or large cupboard, you'd have to be nuts to try and brush on lacquer. Spray it, or pick a different finishing treatment. (IMO)  

1. 
   johnkollar | Oct 08, 2003 09:38am | #11

   Jon-

   Thanks for the input.  I am finding it is hard to get a good coat of lacquer on the body of the nightstands with the brush.  I was going to poly, but thought I should at least try something new.  This project has taken forever for something so simple.  My shop resembles Frankenstein's laboratory, and I am the mad scientist.  Eh, just got to bite the bullet and try it out.

   I had never really though of a spray on finish before.  I guess it has a lot of advantages.  I was wondering about a recommendation for maybe a HVLP setup, or something around those lines.  Money is kinda a factor.  Although, my shop has gained all the major woodworking power/hand tools needed for any project in the past 3 months.  Dove into this one head first, and loving it.

   Bought 2 aerosol cans of Deft Lacquer in lieu of HVLP, I know it isn't the same.  Just wondering some thoughts on an upgrade.

   -JohnP.S. - Going to be building 2 End tables, 1 Kitchen table, 2 coffee tables, 1 Dresser, 1 Entertainment center and a Bird House in the next 8-12 months.

2. 
   jonsherryl | Oct 08, 2003 10:38am | #12

   John, I'm pretty much a traditionalist when it comes to finishing techniques. I don't own spray equipment. I either rub it on or brush it on...and the finishes I use the most are penetrating oils, shellac, and the older resin varnishes. I use very little lacquer (pretty much just on dulcimers) and even less polyurethane (only when I need it for its greater durability on table tops.)...and I NEVER use the new water based acrylics.

   ...But if you're able to convince the wife you absolutely must have an HVLP system in order to put a good finish on your bird houses, I sure would be interested in a copy of your sales pitch. :O) 

3. 
   Elcoholic | Oct 09, 2003 10:44pm | #13

   Chiming back in.  The demands on an HVLP gun to properly atomize the finish with no more than 10 psi at the nozzle require very good engineering and machining.  That said you're better off with a cheap conventional than a cheap HVLP.  Most states with low VOC and HVLP regs kick-in at 1 gal per day which means that many pros may have $300 & up guns laying around that they can't use.  You might pick one up cheap with some checking around.

   I'm still using an excellent Binks Model 95 that is an automotive quality gun.  I'd like to switch to a turbine HVLP set-up and will do so when the next commission comes along that will pay for it.  My motivations are next-to-no overspray (80% vs 30% transfer efficiency) and relative quiet compared to my P.O.S. oiless compressor.  I've used and will buy the Accuspray #10 gun http://www.accuspray.net/turbine_guns.htm with their 23 Series Turbine http://www.accuspray.net/23_series.htm as well as with a homemade turbine.  I figured I could save $100 if I bought the vacmotor from Graingers, but then I'd forego the warranty on the turbine, so I'll just save my time for woodworking and spend the extra $100.

   BTW I've heard that most conversion guns are worse airhogs than conventional guns so I've eliminated them from consideration.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

4. 
   Tao | Oct 10, 2003 01:32am | #14

   My Binks Mach1 "converson gun" with a 90P  air cap uses a maximum of 6 CFM at 15 PSI to the gun. With a 92P, it uses 8 CFM at 15 PSI, and it uses 13 CFM at 33PSI with a 94P air cap.  The 90P is good for stains and light bodied materials, the 92P handles lacquers fast enough for most people, while the 94P will handle up to 12 oz per minute of medium bodied material (ca 44 seconds in a Zahn no.2 cup).  That's over 5 gallons per hour, and it puts down a very good finish.

   My Sharpe 998 HVLP uses about 7 CFM at 50 PSI to the gun, atomizes beautifully with lighter bodied materials, and flows about 6 to 8 oz per minute.

   MY Asturo Eco sprays just about anything with only 5 CFM or so at 17 PSI to the gun.  I can use it to spray conversuion lacquer all day on site with a P-C twin-tank compressor.

   I wouldn't call these air hogs, yet any one of them will widely out-perform any turbine rig I have ever used, and they are a heck of a lot cheaper to boot.  I have owned two of the $1000, three and four stage turbine setups, and tested several others, and none of them comes close to a good "conversion" gun in terms of speed, versatility, and effective quality.

   You might be doing yourself a favor if you took a look at some of these guns before you spend that kind of money.

   By the way, I have a Binks 97, a couple of DeVilbiss JGA's and MBC's, all top quality industrial guns that I  just never use any more, even when I was spraying every day.

   Another thought in response to others' opnions on lacquer:  If it's such an abomination, why do firms like Thomasville, Baker, Whitticomb, and Henredon still use it?  Why does Dakota Jackson use it on their ultra-expensive designer furniture?  There are all kinds of lacquers with all kinds of characteristics, from short resin, "high build" cheapies (probably qualify as abominations) to high quality nitrocellulose lacquers with alkyd additives, acrylic modified lacquers, CAB lacquers, catalyzed lacquers of various kinds.

   One can certainly like whatever one likes, but to condemn all lacquer  as unsuitable for furniture finishes defies reason, as well as the considered opinion of a whole lot of furniture designers and engineers.

   Sorry to get off  topic, but "friends don't let friends buy turbines" -- at least not without knowing the options....

   Michael R

5. 
   johnkollar | Oct 10, 2003 02:44am | #15

   Any rig you got laying around you would want to get off your hands??  Haha.  Sounds like it is a contested subject with Lacquer and spray rigs.  I really have no clue about spray, this forum is the first time I have heard of it used on furniture . . . I am sure some people are surprised at that.

   I am only doing this as a hobby, but I am attempting to make stuff as good, if not better than what is in the stores around here (higher end stuff, not walmart).  Is a spray setup worth it given what I will be building.  I always tend to buy things after a ton of research, and it sounds like a spray rig would cut a lot of time out of finishing.  I like the tung oil, but I also like the way my nightstand tops look lacquered.

   I am just a little man, with a simple mind at this point.  Thanks for the info!  I will look up all the products talked about in the previous two messages.  BTW, finishing the body of the nightstands is going VERY slow.  It is starting to look ugly as well.  I am just going to wait for the Deft aerosol can sI ordered to finsh the Lacquer job.

   -John

6. 
   Tao | Oct 11, 2003 10:42pm | #17

   John,

   A Sharpe 998HVLP costs a little over $200 with a pressurized quart cup.  It will do everything you need.  If that's above your budget, Astro (not Asturo) makes a gravity gun for around $100 that I have seen recommended by a lot of pros. 

   As an alternative, Behlen and Mohawk and several other companies package furniture lacquers in spray cans, and this would be adequate for small projects.  Try http://www.meritindustries.com or http://www.woodfinishsupply.com, among others.  You'll want the topcoat, not the touchup lacquer.

   As for extra rigs -- they're just gathering dust around here.  A couple of them are more than 30 years old.  I'd have to clean one up & check it out before I sold it, but if you're interested, Email me privately & I'll figure out a reasonable price.  I see lots of DeVilbiss JGA guns in the pawnshops around here for $50 or so.  They are an excellent industrial conventional gun.

   John O.,

   Up until this year I was a full time woodworker who sort of leaked over into being a full time custom finisher because my experience in furniture manufacturing gave me the background to do things hardly any other finishers in the area could or would do, and I just followed the demand.

   A lot of turbines do a great job.  I had a professional painter in my shop this morning who had his crews using two of them, along with a conversion rig, and was very satisfied.  I just think they are a ripoff because you get even better performance and versatility for a lot less money with a good conversion setup, and with some of the low air consumption guns, you even get equal portatbility.

   If you get a conversion gun, get one with a quart cup and a regulator that regulates the pressure in the cup.  They use less air and are easier to use.  Later, you can get a cheap 2-gallon pressure pot that you can set a gallon , quart, or even a pint can inside.  This will allow you to spray inside cabinets & such easier.  I bought both my pressure pots at garage sales for $25 each -- at separate sales.  Saw another one a couple of weeks ago, but had no need for it.

   Binks Mach1's are kind of expensive, but they are a good solid industrial guns and will spray anything from water to roofing tar with the right setup and enough air.  If you have a limited air supply and don't do a lot of finishing  I would recommend the 92 fluid tip and the 92P air cap.  I think the model number for the gun with pressure assist cup and regulatior is still 98-1141.  If I could only ever have one gun, it would be a tossup between the Binks and an Asturo.  Sata's are right up there in quality, but they use a LOT of air and aren't suitable for on site work.

   Michael R.

7. 
   Kevin | Oct 12, 2003 06:15am | #18

   I see lots of DeVilbiss JGA guns in the pawnshops around here for $50 or so.  They are an excellent industrial conventional gun.

   Agreed. I shoot all of my lacquer, conversion varnish, etc out of a 2.5 gallon pressure pot with a JGA 510 and I absolutely love it. I used to spray with the older JGA 503 years ago.

   As for pawnshop deals... they are well worth looking thru periodically. I picked up a DeVilbiss HVLP "GTI" gravity gun, one of the early English made models, for $72 a couple years ago at a pawn shop while getting a stereo installed in my car down the block. At the time the newer Taiwanese made GTIs were retailing for $450. The gun was in mint condition and came with the original box and everything, including the big quart cup instead of the more common pint and a half cups that most gravity guns come with. I couldn't believe my good fortune. My biggest worry was that the pawn shop guy would catch on to my excitement and raise the price. I would have paid twice the asking price in a heartbeat 'cause it still would have been an awesome deal. LOL it was the acting job of the century to pretend that I was only casually interested in the gun.

   I personally don't care for the Binks Mach1's atomization. I don't think they atomize very well. But, my good friend and mentor on automotive paints absolutely loves his Mach1 and he's one of the best automotive painters on the west coast. C'est la vie. I'd rather use a Mach1 than a turbine unit, though.

   On the lacquer suitability issue... I agree with what you've said. Straight nitro lacquer isn't used much any more for many of the reasons lacquer as a whole has been criticized in this thread. But, the newer formulations and variants perform much better as a dry film and still retain most or all of the positive aspects of lacquer in terms of sprayability. I haven't used straight nitro lacquer for a long time. But, I use precat and some CAB lacquer regularly and intend to continue to do so. Combined with a vinyl sealer they will stand up to moisture far, far better than straight nitro lacquer.

   Regards,

   Kevin

8. 
   Tao | Oct 12, 2003 08:35pm | #19

   Regarding Mach1's, picking the right fluid tip and air cap has a lot to do with performance.  A lot of them are sold with air caps that are designed for industrial situatons, require over 20 cfm and don't function well with less air.  The 92/92p and 94/94p fluid tip and air cap combinations can put down a flawless furniture finish if set up and maintained properly.   The 94 is faster, but requires more air. 

   Same goes with the JGA.  The right fluid tip and air cap are critical to performance.

   A funny thing about atomization.  My Asturo gun would appear to have rather coarse atomization, but the pattern is extremely uniform and gives a very good finish with very little overspray.  My Sharpe appears to have finer atiomization, but is harder to get a fine finish with.  The Mach1 is somewhere in between with finer atomization than the Asturo, a little more air consumption, and a fine finish if the operator does his part.  Viscosity and wet film thickness appear to be more critical to getting a fine finish than with conventional guns, but the tradeoffs are definitely worth it to me.

   Michael R

9. 
   Elcoholic | Oct 13, 2003 06:53pm | #20

   Thanks for the info, I will do some more checking before I buy a new setup.  I re-read a sidebar by M. Dresder on conversion guns in an FWW article circa '91 and the air consumption numbers you're getting are much better.  I pretty much spray by the seat of my pants.  I have a little cheater valve and gauge on the my #95 and between it and the fan adjuster I can get the finish down shooting at around 40 psi.  I usually just run the fluid adjustment wide open (I can feel you cringe).  My biggest problem is that I spray outside and just a little breeze can really make it tough to find the line between a coat that's too dry and one that's too wet.  This is why I'd like to go to HVLP, so I can spray indoors without all the overspray.  Is there a book or video you can recommend so that I can have a better idea of what I'm doing?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

10. 
    Kevin | Oct 13, 2003 08:21pm | #21

    One thing I can tell you is that once you get used to spraying with HVLP conversion guns, you won't set up a conventional gun the same. I used to spray wide open too. But, now days I keep my conventional gun (on my pressure pot) set at the pot at 20 lbs fluid and air pressure. Although... some of that is also due to having sprayed a lot in the past with air-assisted airless conventional guns (DeVilbiss and Kremlin). It takes a little getting used to spraying with the lower air pressure on conventional guns. But, the trade off is that overspray is less of a problem. I rely on reducing with MEK and PM Acetate to assist in flow out. I imagine that were I reducing with just lacquer thinnner, I would probably not be happy with the performance of a conventional gun at those low pressures.

    Regards,

    Kevin

11. 
    Elcoholic | Oct 10, 2003 07:40pm | #16

    Full time finisher? 

    Thanks for the info.  Maybe I've been unduly influenced by my pro-turbine buddies.  Maybe their experience is based on early or lower quality conversion guns.  I have used the Accuspray #10 with Enduropoly several times and got very good results.  I shoot a limited range of finishes - nitro lacquer (Lilly), 2# shellac (from flakes), and mostly these days I'm using Enduropoly.  When I shoot stain I usually use my little el cheapo touch-up gun from HarborTool and Freight.  I'm partial to Binks because there's a dealer 20 minutes away.  Maybe the Mach 1 w/ #92 or #94 air cap would be worth a closer look.  Are your endorsements based on using a siphon cup, gravity cup or a pressure pot?  I don't want to mess with a pot, not nearly large enough projects for that.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

    Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne