This message is for anybody with good wood finishing skills. I have taken on a job to refinish a couple of teak plywood kitchen cabinet doors but have run into a problem. After stripping the present wood finish with Circa stripper, I lightly sanded the door with 180 grit paper to a smooth finish then tack clothed the surface and vacuumed it removing any dust. I then applied a water based satin wood finish (Varathane Diamond Wood Finish). After letting it dry almost half has turned rough almost like a aligatoring appearance,it appears as though it has not bonded properly. I despratley need to correct this problem and complete the job. I have no idea what type of finish was used originaly nor do the owners, and I do not want to end up doing all the doors which look allright. Please Help with your wisdom.
Thanks woodplane
Replies
Wood:
My wife works for a firm that makes luxury yachts. Their woodshop staff turn out beautiful work , mostly in teak. The finish on this stuff is wonderful. It is sprayed. They use a product made by Awlgrip (mainly known for two-part epoxy paint for boat exteriors.
Go to this page:
http://www.awlgrip.com/awlgrip_pages/product_systems_awlspar.htm
Since it is designed for high-end marine it should do well in a domestic kitchen.
Good luck with the project!
Hastings
You might try Peter Gedrys in Ask The Experts. He is very knowledgable and also quite helpful. It sounds like you have a compatibility problem.
Good luck, Tom.
woodplane,
First, don't panic. There's nothing you've done that can't be corrected. I have had a lot of experience with the Varathane product you've used, in fact, it has become one of my favorite finishes. But not the satin version. I only use the gloss, because I rub out finishes to the look I want. I don't like the flatting agents used in finishes to achieve the satin look. They dull the appearance of the wood.
In all probability, the appearance you're describing is the result of the finish raising the wood grain. Without a sealer, the Varathane Diamond really raises grain. All you need to do is let the first coat dry completely - at least several days. That first coat will seal the wood. Level it uniformly with 220-320 grit. The next coat should not cause any further grain raising, but if there is still some slight fuzz, simply level again, with 220-320. You will need to level each coat anyway to get the best final finish.
However, I have some other suggestions regarding your problem. In no particular order:
1. Are you sure you washed all the stripper off the wood before starting on the refinishing? Residual stripper could be part of the problem.
2. While I really like the particular finish you are using, it would not be my choice for finishing teak. I would use lacquer over Boiled Linseed Oil. But the Varathane will work well.
3. It is very likely that the original finish went down over wood treated with BLO, as linseed is used almost without exception by the furniture industry to get teak to that toasty warm brown color that people like and expect. You stripped, then sanded, then finished with a water-borne product that does not develop the color of teak. Have you given any thought to using BLO before the Varathane?
4. With teak, I would sand to a grit higher than 180, because I think teak can be polished out to a much higher degree than non-oily woods. But that's a personal preference. I have had very good success leveling and rubbing out the Varathane Diamond to resemble a fine lacquer finish. Doing that requires the wood to be smoother than 180 grit.
Rich
I have done limited work with teak, and only for outdoor items, but a couple of questions for you who really know the stuff:1) I understood that teak dust is bad stuff, so breathing protection is especially important when sanding -- is this so;2) Is it possisble that the natural oilyness of the wood is causing a finish problem?
Joe,
I think it's very important to wear breathing protection when generating wood dust. I have worked teak for many, many years and so far I have been very blessed not to have any sensitivity to it. In fact, I really like it's smell.
Yes, there is a possibility of incompatibility of the varathane product with the teak, although I doubt it. When I "discovered" Varathane Diamond I tried it on a lot of woods, including tropical hardwoods and didn't have a problem. That doesn't mean it's not happening in this case. That's also why I asked about using linseed before the final finish. I always use linseed on teak as I really like the way it develops teak's color and grain. I was thinking that the cured linseed oil could provide a better compatibility for the water based finish.
Rich
Joe
Breathing protection is important with any kind of dust, be it wood or anything else. Keep your lungs as clean as you can.
A little info about teak. You may have noticed when you are cutting the boards on a table saw or with any electric tool, that you will see sparks, sometimes occasionally and sometimes often. Teak picks up sand and stone particles as it grows. These bits becomes incorporated into the tree. It is not great for cutting tools and I am not sure I would want to breath in more than I really had to. That being said, I love working with it. I just sharpen my tools more often when I do and I wear a simple particle mask when cutting and sanding. JL
Interestng. Thanks for the information.
Joe
Last week I had to refinish parts of some Danish solid teak chairs and I used Bartley's Honey Gel Stain. Wipe it on, wait, and wipe it off. Might be worth a try. The point is -- it matched the rest of the existing "natural" finish.
Edited 2/6/2007 3:50 pm ET by Jimma
I see two potential problems - roughness and adhesion problems. The roughness is probably because you didn't raise the grain before using a w/b product. Always raise the grain (preferrably) with distilled water and sand again with the last grit, usually 220 for me. The adhesion problem could be from the previous oil based finish, stripper residue or even the tack cloth, which is also generally a no-no for w/b finishes. Before trying another coat test for adhesion. Cut an a couple of x's in the finish with an X-acto knife and then cover the x's with some real good packing tape. Burnish the tape real well and then pull the tape. If the finish lifts with the tape then you'll need to start over.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
It is common to use lacquer thinner or acetone on the surface of teak just before gluing or finishing because of the oil in the wood.
gb93433
I agree that it is a good move to clean the surfaces you are gluing and try to remove the oils that are there to improve bonding, but not the surfaces you are finishing, unless you simply want to clean off all dust and are prepared to wait for the natural oils to return to the surface. You want the wood in a stable state when you start finishing. JL
Edited 2/7/2007 11:21 am ET by jeanlou
I agree. I don't think there should be any adhesion problems with freshly-prepared teak and any finish. But it would be interesting to test this.
Also, most experience has shown that wiping oily woods with solvent does little, if anything to improve glue bonding, and probably results in more oils coming to the surface after a few minutes, anyway. Freshly-prepared jointing is much more important to glue bond strength (jointing done no more than a few hours before gluing). Preparing the jointed surface longer than 24 hours weakens the joint (for all woods) due to oxidation.
Rich
Rich
OK...but I am still going to clean the faces for gluing with a lacquer thinner soaked rag before glue up because I believe it helps and I sleep better when I do. :-) .
I agree that it is better to glue up as soon as possible after machining, but keep in mind that in commercial shops there may be piles of prepared lumber for gluing on rolling carts. These piles may not be glued for several days, amd you can be sure that a class shop will not do this if there was room for joint failure or unsightly results. I have never experienced this type of problem. JL
"I am still going to clean the faces for gluing with a lacquer thinner soaked rag before glue up because I believe it helps and I sleep better when I do"
Yup.
I glue tropical hardwoods with Gorilla Glue. Works great. No need for special preparation. I joint just before glue up. But guess what I also do just before spreading the glue? I wipe the surfaces with acetone! Like the comedians say, "It couldn't hurt!"
Edited 2/7/2007 11:37 am ET by Rich14
I've tried it both ways with Cocobolo and I honestly haven't noticed any benefit to wiping with solvents so I stopped. Gluing a fresh joint seems to do the trick very nicely. That and using a really good quality glue. I prefer Titebond III on oily wood, although Titebond II seems to work pretty good too.
Rich
Let me see if I get this right...you don't need to do it because it doesn't help at all and is unnecessary, but you do it anyway because it can't hurt?. As I have said in the past, fence sitting can be hard on the sitting apparatus. :-) JL
I never said I wasn't a little crazy. It's funny how we get something into our behavior and it's hard to let it go. More than 40 years ago it was conclusively shown in a number of medical trials that swabbing the skin with an alcohol wipe did absolutely nothing to reduce the number of bacteria on the surface or prevent infection through a subsequent skin opening. It was possible to reduce bacteria slightly (but insignificantly) by physically abrading by rubbing hard for at least 2 minutes (but that's never done). Despite knowing, intellectually, that the process is useless (except, perhaps in situations of gross, surface accumulation of a visible dirt coating), psychologically, no doctor or nurse can draw blood without first swabbing the skin with alcohol. And you give me grief about MY neurotic behavior? ;)
Rich
I am not giving you grief. I am just advising you that the sitting apparatus of a human was not designed for sitting on fences. :-)
As far as alcohol goes, hospitals where I live now insist that visitors use their alcohol based hand cleaners (that they make freely available at stations all over the place) both before and after visiting patients...with budget cuts being what they are, I am sure that they would not be doing this if there was no benefit.
Back to woodworking - I wipe the faces for joining whenever I use oily woods, because I truly believe it makes a difference. When I learned the trade we did it because we had experienced glue failure. Now, years later, the glue manufacturers have surely developed glues that perform better and may very well be just fine under special conditions, but I do not use these newer glues, and still limit myself to the staple pvc, urea, resorcinol and epoxy based adhesives. Call me a woodworking throwback if it pleases you. JL
"visitors use their alcohol based hand cleaners (that they make freely available at stations all over the place) both before and after visiting patients"
Yes, and the disinfectant solution contains detergents, and other solvents, and the washing instructions include vigorous hand scrubbing for at least 15 seconds, some actually say 2 minutes.
The next time you have blood drawn, note the vigor and duration with which the alcohol swab is applied to your antecubutal fossa (that's the inside part of your elbow/forearm where the lab vampire sticks the needle). One single, gentle brush of the swab over the skin, almost too light to feel.
Don't ask me how I know these things . . . and
. . . who cares.
Rich
Edited 2/8/2007 3:01 pm ET by Rich14
As per your request, I won't ask. JL
As another poster noted, tack cloths may cause problems with water base finishes. Target Coatings recommends wipedown with a damp rag instead of a tack cloth.
Hope you get the problem solved. Good luck.
Ed
Before I wiped cocobolo I did have problems but not now. Been doing it for over 20 years without a problem. I wipe it with lacquer thinner or acetone.
Edited 2/7/2007 3:58 pm by gb93433
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled