Replies

1. 
   | Oct 15, 2006 04:07pm | #1

   Hello pmmatty,

   Shellac! You hit the nail on the head.

   Bob, Tupper Lake, NY

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 15, 2006 04:17pm | #2

   Yep, shellac is the way for walnut. 

1. 
   frenchy | Oct 15, 2006 06:17pm | #4

   pmmatty

     Shellac!

     Now a brief primer on shellac..  Thin it out.. you can't possibly get it too thin.. Use denatured alcohol not paint thinner!  I use two parts of alcohol to one part of Zinssers.  I thin the second coat even further with the washing out of the brush over the can of shellac  and the third coat is even further thinned out with the washing out of the brush from the second coat.

          Keep the sleeve from the brush and when you rinse the brush out over the can of shellac shake it dry and then spray some windex into the brush (really soak it)   and wrap it with the original sleeve.  (If you've lost the sleeve you can wrap it with newspaper)   That way you don't have to worry about the brush drying out.  (or even be really carefull about getting it clean) {the ammonia won't let it dry out}    When you next use the brush rinse out the Windex with water  shake and spin dry and pour some denatured alcohol into the brushes to remove the water..

    I like to give it three coats more and you risk having the finish checking on you in a few decades.  I give a light sanding between coats with 220 paper don't try to remove shellac, the first coat will slightly raise the grain so a brief wipe with the 220 eliminates that and use the same piece of 220 for the second coat.. I like to wait 8 hours beforse sanding but have sanded in as little as 15 minutes with no really noteable decrease in paint quailty.

       Now if you are going for one of those really deep forever finishes  the second coat gets sanded with 360 and the third coat gets 400, 1000, 2000. and a rub out, followed with a french polish..  (The french polish part should only be taken by those with little else to do  ;-))  

1. 
   joepez | Oct 16, 2006 07:42pm | #14

   Frenchy,

   Quick question for you. I have used spray laquear with great results, but the fumes restrict me to outside use. I would like to try using shellac, but is there a low odor, or water based product available with good results. Signed, never used shellac before?

   thanks very much-Joe P

1. 
   frenchy | Oct 16, 2006 08:16pm | #15

   joepez,

    Shellac has a semi sweet smell to it that isn't offensive to most.. however the alcohol smells just like when you walk into a bar or spill a drink.. it's the same stuff only denatured to prevent the whino's from drinking it..

     I have never had any sort of reaction to the smell and most smells really bother me. (I'm hypersensitive because I sprayed a two part paint with the wrong resperator)

    Because alcohol disappears so quickly you will only smell a wiff an hour later and if you open windows even sooner.. Remember shellac is on just about every pill you've ever taken..

1. 
   Rich14 | Oct 16, 2006 08:38pm | #16

   Frenchy and Joe,

   Denatured alcohol gives me (and others) a bad headache. I became sensitive to it from inhaling the fumes from an alcohol-burning stove on a sail boat. With plenty of ventilation there is no problem at all.

   You can use absolute ethanol instread of denatured, but it costs a fortune.

   Rich

2. 
   frenchy | Oct 17, 2006 04:49pm | #22

   rich14

     I'm sorry to hear about your sensitivety. I had the same thing at one time from spraying a two part paint with the wrong respirator.. it took years but eventually my lungs forgave me and I'm no longer hypersensitive.  I still avoid it like the plague but if I need to, I buy a good respirator designed for that type of paint, make sure it seals well, don one of those disposable suits (That I have had for over a decade)  and have at it..  The respirator is always new.  I've tried to reuse them by just buying new cartridges but it isn't the same.. maybe the seals aren't effective over time..

3. 
   Rich14 | Oct 17, 2006 05:31pm | #23

   Yeah, the respirator really makes a difference. Both denatured alcohol and mineral spirits give me a terrible headache that lasts for days.

   Lacquer thinner doesn't seem to do that.

   Rich

4. 
   frenchy | Oct 17, 2006 11:14pm | #24

   rich14,

    Then how do you have a drink?  or are you a teetotaller.   All denatured alcohol is booze with a tiny bit of something to keep the winos from drinking it..

    Lacquer thinner is fairly nasty stuff incomparison,  from a really nasty end of the hydrocarbon chain..  I used to love painting with lacquer because it's so darn forgiving.. I'd brag that I could paint in a wind storm with a brick and still have a great paint job..   Shellac is even better. 

5. 
   Rich14 | Oct 17, 2006 11:40pm | #25

   "Then how do you have a drink?  or are you a teetotaller."

   I'm not a teetotaller. And drinking alcohol does not give me a headace. It's the odor of denatured in the air that does it, especially burning the stuff, as in an alcohol stove. I can tolerate quite a bit of denatured when I'm applying shellac, but get me near an alcohol-burning stove and, whoa nellie!

   Mineral spirits is also murder, even just a little of it in the air.

   Instant pain. always one-sided, feels like it's going right through an eye (it's happened either side - never both at once).

   And even after I'm out of the offending fumes, I cam smell and taste the stuff for days.

2. 
   forestgirl | Oct 16, 2006 09:39pm | #18

   Joe, a good respirator (one that's rated for fumes) should take care of any breathing-related problems.  I have grown pretty sensitive to solvent fumes over the past 10 years, and use a respirator with filter cartridges.  I have no problems at all with even Naptha (the worst for me) when I wear it.  It's the kind that covers the mouth and nose, and has catridges on either side of the nose.  Sorry I don't have a link.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

3. 
   dull tool | Oct 15, 2006 06:06pm | #3

   pmmatty,
   For walnut, my preference is "Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane". Their "Clear Satin" goes well on walnut, thin 50/50 on the first coat, brush it on and while still wet wipe cross grain with a soft cloth. Allow 12 to 24 hours before brushing on subsequent coats. Sand lightly between coats. Finish with paste wax and you will see beautiful grain patterns.
   Attached is my latest projects. These are Eastern Red Cedar finished as above with Gloss Urethane.

   
4. 
   forestgirl | Oct 15, 2006 06:32pm | #5

   Know what you mean about "too many articles"!!  I just completed a small project with walnut.  I used TransTint dyes to even out the colors (sapwood v. heartwood, which were quite different), then padded on numerous coats of Zinsser shellac, buffed out with steel wool.

   I was probably lucky that the gal who was having me build this display (shadow-box kinda thing) didn't give me much lead-time, so I couldn't get tempted by anything time consuming (Danish oil and such).  The frame turned out great, and working with the shellac was easy beyond belief.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 
   

1. 
   Floss | Oct 16, 2006 04:35pm | #10

   forestgirl,If you like oil finishes that are fast then use danish oil and shellac.Apply the danish oil liberally but not enough to leave pools on the surface. Then immediately brush on a coat of shellac. When this gets tacky, in about 10 - 20 minutes depending on your shop conditions, rub off the excess with 00 steel wool and your done. Don't leave any excess on the surface because it will dry as a hazy film.This is the simplist finish I know of that I have used and it leaves a nice satin glow to the wood.Try it on some scraps of walnut.I read about the finish in Tage Frids book on woodworking one time while browsing through a bookstore.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 16, 2006 05:24pm | #11

   "Try it on some scraps of walnut."  I definitely will!!  Thanks for the tip.  I have several short pieces of scrap left from that project, which will work for a quick test.  I didn't know there was a "fast" Danish oil finish.  Normally, I'm not in a hurry for the finishing steps, but this project came up at the last minute, and didn't pay much, so I had to make it quick.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

5. 
   Rich14 | Oct 15, 2006 09:02pm | #6

   pmmatty,

   Do you get the impression that shellac is the thing to use? Brush it, pad it, spray it, but use it.

   Here are my general steps, very similar to Frenchy's discription, but I'm going to be a little more specific.

   Sand to 220, 320 is better. Meticulously clean the surface of sanding dust by wiping with clean rags, use a mineral spirits-dampened rag for the final wiping. Let the mineral sprits completely flash off the surface.

   Apply a 2# or thinner cut of shellac and let it harden completely don't rush this. Everyone wants to get done fast. Give it 24 hours. The alcohol will have seriously raised the grain (this is good!) and the shellac surface will be rough. Take the surface down with 220 grit on a sanding block. Go very lightly, using just the weight of your hand and the block, just taking off the raised wood fibers and roughness of the shellac. Don't try to achieve a completely smooth surface, because you can't. You're just taking off the tops of the "mountains," leaving lots of valleys. The sanding shellac dust should be a bone-dry powder. If it ever is not, give it more time to dry.

   Repeat. You will probably get some more wood fiber raising with this second dilute coat (good!). Sand with 220 and a sanding block again, lightly. This time, you will get wider areas that get sanded and the valleys will be much smaller in between.

   Continue to apply coats, and sand when dry. The surface will become more and more even with each coat, the valleys will become very small, then disappear at about the 4th or 5th coat and you will have a perfectly flat, smooth, ground-glass looking surface at the end of sanding.

   Be careful on edges, don't sand through to the wood. When the entire surface sands perfectly smooth, with almost just the weight of the sanding block, leaving no shiny valleys, apply one more coat, let that dry for several days, then sand with 320, then 400, then 4-0 steel wool. That will give you a beautiful, semi-gloss appearance. If it is too matte in appearance use finer grit abrasive going up through 800 grit and 1200 grit wet or dry, lubricated with mineral spirits, then automotive rubbing compound and automotive polishing compound. Stop at any of these grits when the surface is what you want.

   Rich

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 16, 2006 05:27pm | #12

   "Continue to apply coats, and sand when dry."  Rich, I thought one of the major advantages to using shellac was that you could avoid having to sand between coats, since each coat partially dissolves the previous one.  I can see where sanding after the first coat might pay off, but have you really found a noticeable difference by sanding between each and every coat??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   Rich14 | Oct 16, 2006 06:49pm | #13

   FG,

   It's true that each succeeding shellac coat will adhere to the previous by action of the solvent. I call it "softening" the previous coat rather than disolving it. But that's just semantics.

   Yes, you certainly can apply layer after layer of shellac without any worry of adhesion problems. Sanding between coats has nothing to do with adhesion. It has to do with achieving the beautiful finish that shellac (and some say, only shellac) can give. I don't call my final coat final, until the one before it can be taken down to a completely uniform scratch pattern at 220-320 grit.

   But sanding between coats, and after the final coat, is the only way I put any kind of finish down. It is part of the "finishing the finish" process and it completely eliminates any "problem" with dust nibs or other irregularities in the surface that are inevitable whether brushing, spraying or wiping. In fact, I often wonder what all the concern is about dust. I try to spray in as dust-free a place as I can, but dust in the surface of my dry finish is not a concern.

   When I spray lacquer, I shoot 3 thin applications in a day, without sanding in between. But I consider those 3 applications one coat.

   Rich

1. 
   forestgirl | Oct 16, 2006 09:35pm | #17

   "Sanding between coats has nothing to do with adhesion."  Rich, I said nothing about adhesion.  I simply wanted to know if you found a noticeable difference between sanding and not sanding (implied:  difference in appearance) between each coat of shellac.

   I'm still enough of a finishing novice to read and re-read Jewitt and others before tackling something important, when my memory may be spotty.  He, in particular, seems to handle shellac quite differently from you.  Not saying either of you is "wrong" -- just pointing out that it's not a universally held opinion on this particular issue (sanding between every coat of shellac).  forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 16, 2006 09:51pm | #19

   The difference between sanding and not sanding is mostly apparent on open pored wood, such as walnut (the wood is question in this thread) and mahogany.  The sanding makes it much easier to fill the pores with shellac.  On closed pore woods such as maple or cherry, the difference would be much less and sanding between coats would be more of a short cut way to remove imperfections before the final rubbing out. 

2. 
   Rich14 | Oct 16, 2006 10:04pm | #20

   FG,

   I know you didn't ask about adhesion. I just gave that information for clarity.

   I have no idea what Jewitt's intention is for the shellac finish he describes. Yes I always abrade the surface of a shellac finish before the next coat. As I said, this is mainly to take down the inevitable nibs, and other surface irregulatities. I don't try to achieve a perfectly uniform sanding with each coat, as I've described, that's not possible to do. But with each coat and each sanding, that goal comes closer and closer.

   I can't imagine not doing this, as I am after  a fine furniture finish. If I were just shellacing a shop-made tool or jig I probably would not do anywhere near the inter-coat sanding, but I would still knock off the raised grain and dust nibs of the first coat.

   I know lots of people who think that applying the finish, any coat of it, is the last step, and that nothing more needs to be done. I actually dislike a finish coat that has been left as the final surface, with the possible exception of automotive finishes which are applied using materials, spray guns and skill that are far beyond anything I could accomplish.

   I have seen furniture finished with shellac that has been built up with multiple applications, involving no sanding in between. Those pieces, in my opinion, give shellac a bad name.

   Rich

   Edited 10/16/2006 3:08 pm ET by Rich14

3. 
   frenchy | Oct 17, 2006 04:42pm | #21

   Forestgirl,

    I have noticed a real differance between sanding between coats and not sanding.. I'm lazy, well, overly ambitious and I like to move on quickly if I can, but I also like things done well, at least to the best of my abilitites.  If I could just slop on three quick coats and sand once you better believe that's what I'd do.. Actually if I could get away with one thick coat carefully applied that's what I'd do..

6. 
   BilljustBill | Oct 15, 2006 11:19pm | #7

   PMM,

   If I've used a film finish, I wipe the walnut with an oil based fruitwood stain to give it an even color.  The one piece I built and applied only clear, semigloss Deft to, has never looked like the deep walnut color it should have.  It "seems" that walnut lightens with time if only a clear film finish is applied

   On my writing secretary and bookcase, I used a clear oil finish.  But, with oil finishes, it seems there's never enough finish to look deep, nor does it seem to take wear-and-tear without having to be reapplied yearly.  So, after letting it dry for several days, I applied 3 coats of Deft over it.  Combining the two finishes seem to use the best of both worlds. 

   The oil finish gives the wood the depth and tone, especially in fancy grains and burls, and the Deft gives a protective and smooth finish.  On the leather writing surface, after I tooled the border and inlayed it into the folding door, I sealed it with a leather product I got at a shoe repair store.

   See what you think about combining the two finishes in the pictures attached.

   Bill

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/15/2006 4:36 pm ET by BilljustBill

   
7. 
   GotAll10 | Oct 15, 2006 11:35pm | #8

   I am just finishing a walnut bed.  Contrary to what seems to be the popular opinion, I am using Watco danish oil, let it dry well, sealed with a coat of dewaxed shellac, and covered with wipe-on poly.  I think the oil finish really brings out the grain.  Looks great.

1. 
   pmmatty | Oct 16, 2006 12:40am | #9

   Thank all of you for your input.  Looks like the consensus is shellac.  Appreciate your help.  PMM

8. 
   HoustonHeights | Oct 18, 2006 01:06am | #26

   Maybe I missed it, what is the context in which the walnut will be used?  Shellac may indeed be the best option, but the answer depends on the application.

1. 
   pmmatty | Oct 18, 2006 01:37am | #27

   legs and aprons of contempory end tables. PMM