I have a box made of cherry that I want to use oil (BLO, Danish Oil, Bush Oil, or such) for the finish.
It is my understanding that I can let it soak in oil, sand it into a slurry while wet, for two or three stages.
What are the details I need to know? Any good links that describe the process?
Thanks,
Alan – planesaw
Replies
Sanding an oil or oil/varnish finish has different purposes depending upon the wood. On walnut, the purpose is to create a slurry that fills pores, is let to harden without wiping off fully, and then sanding again. Lots of people swear this works, but I much prefer a pore filler to create a full filled finish if that's my purpose.
It's different with cherry and other closed pore woods. Here the slurry isn't the important thing--it will almost all be wiped off when you wipe off the excess. In this case the oil acts as a lubricant, smoothing the results you get when sanding with a 600 (say) sandpaper.
At the end of the day, with either kind of wood, you shouldn't end up with any build up of finish on the surface. If you do it is quite soft, making a very poor finish.
Steve,
Thanks. I am using cherry. The wood grain is tight. Dovetails that are appropriately tight, but I figure the slurry will fill in any small gaps.
Alan - planesaw
Let me make a suggestion on small gaps in dovetails. The best way I have found is to use small slivers of the wood, cut so the grain runs the same as the wood surrounding the gap. (ie. if it is the pin that has a small divit, use an end grain plug, and if it is the tail, use a sliver so that the flat grain will be up.) I like hide glue to glue them in, since there is less risk of a staining problem.
Smaller than that, and the slurry will work fine, if you can manage not to wipe it out of the gap when you wipe any excess off the surface.
Steve,
You must have been teaching me telepathicly (sp?). Only a couple "gaps" to need "plugs" but I did them the way you suggested. And, thankfully, only a few hairlines where the slurry will fill in.
Does the slurry in the gaps dry hard? Do I need to wait at least a week or so before in order to let the slurry set? Or does it ever set?
Alan - planesaw
It's never going to be really hard--no oil does that. You can't wait long to wipe off excess oil on the surface because if you do you have a gummy mess to remove on the surface. So about the best that can be done is to be careful to go across the gaps to minimize the amount pulled out while wiping off excess on the surface.
The other thing to be aware of is that if these are small enough that these gaps are too small for slivers then only you will ever be aware that they are even there.
Steve,
Yeah, you are right. But being raised by a perfectionist dad, it is hard to let those things go by. I know what you mean. Similar to "The enemy of good enough is perfectionism."
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
A real easy finish is using the Beal Buff System that woodturners use. Put on an oil finish such as Minwax Tung oil and let it dry 24 hours. Then use the three buffing wheels and three bars of .... Tripoli compound, white diamond (Talc?), and canoba wax. The wheel shaped buffs are run in a lathe; round buffs can be run in a drill press. Speeds must be around 3200 RPM. The finish is good for items not handled too much. Great finish.
Edited 4/23/2007 6:33 pm ET by PaulMassachusetts
Paul,
Amazingly enough I have said system. Will experiment.
Alan - planesaw
Minwax Tung oil finish is not really an oil finish in the truest sense. It is an oil/varnish blend. I don't think it even has any tung oil in it. Minwax is very good at.... let's call it "creative" marketing.
Rob
Rob is right on about the Minwax Tung Oil Finish being an oil/varnish not really an oil. But, they are applied in the same way, but the oil/varnish will cure faster than genuine tung oil, be harder, and not run the same risk of developing a "frosty" look that can happen with pure tung oil. So it is probably makes a better "in-the-wood" finish that the tung oil itself.
But it ticks me off that finish manufacturers can't even label their products well enough to tell what basic type of finish they are without having to do tests or to read between the lines on labels. Flexner's Understanding Wood Finishing is invaluable because of it categorizes many of the popular finishes.
Why don't the makers label correctly? Flexner says it is to preserve the fiction that there are dramatic differences among different brands. I think there are quality differences among the products (the differences among varnishes in the category "spar varnish" attest that.) We can't expect makers to say--this is mid-grade material, but we ought to expect them to say this is varnish or this is a mix of oil and varnish.
Yes the word is getting out about tungless tung oil. There is a difference between Formsbies Tung Oil and Minwax Tung oil. The Minwax gives much more Amber color. I use Minwax when I want to darken cherry or maple on a small craft. Formsbies is for leaving a lighter look. If used on the inside of a wood box an oil leaves a chemical order that stays forever. Should the box be used for linens or candy, etc the effect is quite unpleasant. We have some cloth remnants from Japanese Kimono shops that are used to line the bottom of some of the boxes I make. Lately I use aniline dye to change color and use another finish such as the Beal Buff System. varnish, poly, or (God forbid) gel varnish. etc
Formby's Tung Oil Finish isn't any kind of oil--it is a varnish, thinned for wiping. It seems to be an OK wiping varnish, but I won't use it because of the misleading marketing materials that makes it difficult to discern that. I like the Waterlox line of wiping varnishes, in Satin, Gloss, and my favorite Original/Sealer. Minwax Tung Oil Finish and its very similar product Antique Oil are both oil varnish mixes.
One of the reasons these Tung Oil Finishes seem so prevalent, I think, is that the superior properties of tung oil compared to linseed oil have been publicized, but not the very challenging working properties of tung oil. Tung oil should wait several days, not just overnight, between coats, and more like a week before overcoating with a varnish. It takes 4-6 coats before any sort of even finish develops, and, if you don't hold your mouth right, it can develop a "frosty" whiteness, either in spots, or in the pores. The oil/varnish mixes and wiping varnish versions don't have these defects.
While I use lots of shellac, I've not found many situations where Waterlox has not been my final finish of choice. I build a lot of pieces where alcohol, water and heat can be issues, and Waterlox seems to beat out every other finish in its resistance to those.
My favorite is the sealer. It takes a few coats and cure time, but it's fairly foolproof, can be wiped, even thinned if you want, and it yields some chatoyance like BLO.
Tough to beat it, IMO.
Waterlox wiping varnishes are made with phenolic resin. This generally outperforms alkyd resin and is harder. This makes varnishes with it rub out well too. The down side of phenolic resin is that it tends to be relatively dark--not always a problem. However, it is more prone to yellowing over time than alkyd. Shellac changes color very little over time.
You seem to have somewhat of a handle on finishes. I am working on a sitting bench (indoor), quartersawn white oak, water base tinted lavender dye. I've done a sample of the tint on a board, then applied strips of .........
water base poly
boiled linseed oil
shellac
Far and away, the shellac retains (doesn't cancel or interact with) the color tint best. I've never used shellac on a piece that would get abrasion such as kids squiggling round on it.
What's your opinion of shellac in this situation? Would I be better to follow up the shellac with another material topcoat?
Edited 4/25/2007 9:46 am ET by blewcrowe
You might want the top coat, though there is nothing short of stainless steel that will really resist all damage from kids. Shellac will scratch easier, but also will repair much, much easier. A varnish top coat won't scratch quite as fast, but will be quite a bit more of a production to repair. I'd recommend a relatively light colored varnish on top. A good one is Pratt & Lambert 38. It's made with Soya (soybean) oil that is lighter to start and darkens less than linseed oil.
Pratt and Lambert 38? Never heard of the stuff. I'll google it and see where I can find it. Not around here: thet's fer sure.
Thank you, sir.
blewcrowe,
McCloskey Heirloom is also an alkyd resin, soya oil based varnish. Virtually identical to the P&L 38, it seems to be easier to find. If you can't find it let me know, I have a website where it can be ordered. Pratt & Lambert will let you know of any of their stores in your area that have the varnish if you call them. I think there number is on their website.
Rob
Thanks Rob. I checked with Pratt & Lambert. The closest place is about 50 miles and they have to order it. If you think of the website that has the McCloskey stuff, I'd certainly appreciate it.
Blewcrowe,
Here you go...http://www.o-geepaint.com/ArchiCoats/McCloskey/McCloskey.shtml
The heirloom varnish is the third down from the top of the page. They also make a poly varnish that is called heirloom, don't get the 2 confused. You want the alkyd resin heirloom. Although it will darken wood considerably less than varnish made with linseed or tung oil, it will still darken the wood slightly. I use this varnish quite a bit and it really is a quality product.
Rob
Thanks much. I'll get some.
Why did you do the series that you did? And why would you put something different on it now?
Ah, wait, I see you are doing a "sample". Shellac is the easiest of all to repair as a final topcoat, IF it is not being used like a table with other possibilities.Gretchen
It is an occasional bench seat.
The slurry produced from sanding with Watco oil will dry hard.
I normally use 320 grit, just get the surface wet and only sand about a square foot at a time. Wiping it will not remove it from the pores.
And if you have any large "gaps" :) to fill you can scrape the slurry off the sandpaper and use it like a wood filler.
Cheers, DonDon Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
Planesaw Danish Oil = oil + varnish: not the same as plain BLO. That said, I don't much care for look of BLO on Cherry without something over it. My preference is shellac alone or BLO and shellac if there is figure to highlight. Give them all a try before committing.
Stan,
I am using Bush Oil which is a linseed base. Haven't decided whether I will put a wax over it, or something like the shellac.
It is a candle box. Dovetail corners with a sliding top.
The oil makes the cherry look good. Just trying to figure out how to finish it after the oil.
Alan - planesaw
Use garnet sandpaper only.
Try several different oils or oil/varnish mixtures on scrap before you commit to the real project.
Plain BLO with a teaspoon of Japan Drier per pint of oil (added by you) is more or less the 'baseline' oil finish. And no fewer than eight applications.
I've always liked Watco, which of course has a touch of varnish added. Four to five applications really results in a stunning finish. It gets a bad rap as a dumbed down approach to finishing which is more a result of Watco's own ad campaign than anything else. A well done oil finish is labor intensive.
I often hear that certain finishes don't provide much 'protection.' When I hear this, I usually ask what they are trying to protect the furniture from. The first word out of somebody's mouth is usually 'water.' Then in another post, the woodworker talks about raising the grain with, you guessed it, water. Water disturbs film forming finishes much more than it does the wood itself. Water rings form on finishes, not on the wood.
I built the Southern Huntboard from the well-known Carlyle Lynch drawing and use it mostly as a bar. I finished it with three or four applications of Watco. Something is constantly being spilled on it, guests set wet glasses down on it. All it ever requires is a wipe up and a wax job twice a year. There are no rings or discolorations on the top of this piece. None. It sits in the dining room. Hot dishes have been set on it. Hot hors d' oeuvres have been dropped on it. Oily spoons have slid off serving plates and landed on it. Full glasses of milk have been spilled on it. Nothing bothers it. Nothing leaves a stain, discoloration, or any marks at all. I actually wish it looked a little more 'used' than it does.
Edited 4/25/2007 9:28 am ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled