I’m not usually allowed out of Fine Homebuilding, but I hope you’ll put up with me just briefly.
On a job we did recently, and supplied the doors, the Fir Doors “changed’ about a month after they were finished. The sap-wood grain turned bright yellow and the owner is understandably upset. We’ve arranged to get new doors from T.M. Cobb, and the finisher is willing to finish the doors again without charge, but he says they might do the same thing again. The sap wood was not apparent when the doors were finished–so says the owner, the finisher, and our door hanger (the doors were hung pre-finished).
I suspect the finisher might not be doing something right. He told us that he put oil-based stain on the doors, then three coats of a UV Polyurethane finish, inside and outside. Nothing else.
Here’s a link to some pictures of the doors
http://www.garymkatz.com/doors/doors.htm
Any advice would be greatly appreciated,
Gary Katz
Replies
Do you have any pictures of what the door looked like before? That might help narrow down where the problem is.
I presume the finisher stained just the sapwood to get it to match the heartwood in color, since you say that the sapwood wasn't apparent when the door was hung. It looks to me like the upper two raised panels and the lower center stile have this color issue going on. Were the two lower raised panels also treated with the same stain and just not turning that bright yellow? Is there any other part of the door or the side lights that has sapwood that was stained with the same stuff?
One last question: does the poly finish look like it's still okay? IOW does it look degraded or is it just the wood color underneath that is the problem?
This is an odd one...
Regards,
Kevin
No, sadly I don't have pictures taken before the door was finished.
No, the finisher didn't do anything special to the doors. He didn't stain or color just the sapwood. He stained the entire door with the same material--oil-based stain. Then finished the door with three coats of Poly. The Poly looks great.
Gary
So am I correct in understanding that all of the exterior sapwood has turned this bright yellow? Or are there areas where the sapwood hasn't changed color even a little bit?
I'd suggest that you post this over at Homestead Finishing: http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/phpBB2/login.php
Jeff Jewitt, the proprietor, has a good knowledge of the chemistry of stains. There might be something that is neutralizing the oil-based dyes somehow. I don't understand the chemistry well enough to even hazard a guess. But, Jeff might.
Regards,
Kevin
I couldn't get in the site to pick up the pictures, but Fir is tough to stain, especially the stain is dark. I like to stain it a Cherry Red, and will sand to 180 or 220 (finer sanding reduces absorbtion and blotching) and apply a single coat of oil based stain. One can apply some mineral spirits before staining just to see what lies beneath, like sapwood, planer marks etc, but let it evaporate before applying the stain or fixing what ails it.
Depending on the temperature, I will leave it on the wood from 5-15 min. only. As hot as it is here this week, when I was staining fir doors outside yesterday, I think I barely left the stuff on 2 min or so; it was already starting to dry and tack up. I had to use a cloth with some thinner in it to even out the color and darkness.
If the single application of stain looks good, and I still want it darker, it gets complicated. I might try a second coat, but be prepared to quickly wipe it off it starts to blotch.
In such a case, I will apply a thinned down wash coat of wiping varnish like 1 part varnish and 2 parts mineral spirits, then after a day to fully cure it, apply the stain again. It will take forever to dry, and will not absorb. It just sits there on the wood. What you see is what you get and if you are happy with the color and darkness, then let it dry completely and varnish over it.
You can also apply a wash coat of varnish to the bare wood, and go with a dye type stain. Experiment on some scrap to get the right color and darkness; then apply, let dry, and varnish as usual. I apply several coats, starting with the stuff mixed 50-50 then graduate to a more straight mix, but always thin it down by at least 15-20%. It just seems to flow and wipes off better. Wiping varnish is very brainless and is hard to screw up.
There are some other products out there like sanding sealer, and other sealers specifically designed for the job, but I just use plain old varnish thinned down as a wash coat, and it works for me.
Hope this helps, and I am sure there are others with more experience than me on this issue.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
What may have happened here is that the oil stain the finisher used was colored with dye rather than pigments. If so, then he used the wrong product for the job because dyes aren't intended for exterior use due to their lack of lightfastness (ie., sunlight fades the dye). This may have been compounded by the oil stain not having been allowed to dry sufficiently before the poly was applied - allowing it to migrate (along with the non-lightfast dye) thru the wood, which might explain why you're seeing some fading on the sapwood coloration on the interior side of the door.
That's my hunch. If the problem isn't traceable to dyes then I'm at a total loss as to how to explain what has happened with the sapwood coloration.
Regards,
Kevin
Gary, I think the fault lies with the manufacturer. I have built a couple doors myself and had many built for me, both stock and custom.
I have asked that I approve the stock BEFORE it is glued up and assembled. If I do elect to inspect, I'll take some mineral spirits with me and wipe the rascal down. That will show you your sapwood.
The manufacturer should have seen the 3/4 stock that he was glueing up and simply cut out the sap wood. The panels are undoubtedly just pieces of 6" wide 3/4 fir glued up to form the panel. The laborer should have spotted those. Before you take possession of the door, you can wipe the rascal down at the shop.
However, what blows my mind is the fact that the sapwood continues past the panel into the quarter round trip surrounding the panel. That would seem to me to be another piece of wood, and I can't figure out why the sap wood lines up with that trim piece.
I think the finisher could have remedied the problem using a wash coat and aneline dye, but that is asking a lot for quality workmanship here in LA.
I can give you several references in LA to custom door manufacturers that actually make them in their shop and you can hand pick the wood and see it before it is glued up, and some finishers too, if you need them.
While I am a jack of all trades, for important stuff I sub out my finish work to guys who have the dust free shop space and all the gizmos. Let me know if you need referals.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Wow. That rather stands out. My vote is on wood selection when the doors were built, although you do state that it wasn't initially obvious, so it seems to follow reason that it wasn't obvious at that point either.
I do not think, based on your description, that your finisher did anything incorrectly, and judging by the pictures, I'd say he did a great job with the poly.
Actually, Jeff Jewitt isn't a bad shot, and neither is Mike Dresdner. I mean, when you really want to solve it right away . . . I think Dresdners site is finisherscorner.com or something similar. They ought to recognise your name and personally respond, IMHO.
BTW, thanks for the advice on the A&C mantle. I did show some of those pics to the HO and it lit up their eyes. The concrete is in the ground, but not much else. It will be a couple of months until I'm there.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
When you re-order the doors, specify 'No Sapwood'. If they come through with sapwood, reject them. BTDT. Some mfg's may charge a premium for this, but at least you get what you are looking for.
From what I remember there was no sapwood in the fir doors I hung in the past. Whoever made those doors accidentally put in some.
Learn to love sapwood?
I personally view the sapwood effect as a "rustic feature" of Doug Fir; not only our front door (which is close in design to the one you show) but every interior door in our house as well looks more or less like the one in your pictures. If your customer was promised and expected perfectly clear wood then I understand his upset, but I always assumed "that's just the way doug fir is."
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