Hi Folks! Well, it’s finally happening! Next spring my brother and I will begin ground-up construction of a 30 x 40 dedicated (pretty much) woodshop to support our “habit.” Actually, we’re in business together, so it’s not just for fun anymore. The new shop will allow us to increase work flow and productivity, and to bring in some more tools, and, of course, to have more fun! This time bigger is definitely better.
I’ve sure paid my dues when it comes to putting up with less-than-ideal work environments. For example, my shop in Great Falls, MT had seven foot ceilings! I built it from nothing but an old empty shell sitting on concrete blocks, and had to draw the line at raising the roof, though I was able to recess the lighting (the florescents never would have survived otherwise!)
OK, to my point! I’ve been doing behind-the-scenes planning of my Dream Shop for many years, hoping that I’d one day have the chance to see it happen (like most of us). I know a lot of the features I want to include now that the opportunity has arrived, but would LOVE to hear from any and all who might like to pass along an idea here, or a suggestion there. I’m sure there’s plenty I haven’t considered. I’ve gotten a lot of good ideas from books, websites, forums like this, and plain old personal experience, but there’s nothing like hearing from the masses! Any subject is fair game: flooing, walls, ceilings, windows/lighting, layout/work flow, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, anything. No matter how big or small, any idea is a good idea. (This is getting too long! Sorry… better quit!)
I would appreaciate any input you care to give. Thanks in advance! Oh, by the way, I’m designing everything in Sketch Up and will probably post it to the online 3D warehouse when it’s finalized if anybody’s interested.
Chris
Replies
Chris,
Congratulations on your shop plans. That sounds fantastic. The only thing that comes to mind right now in the form of a suggestion is electricity. Make sure that you have plenty of outlets, both 110 and 220, all over the shop. Nothing can be more limiting than not having a plug where you need one. Over the years people seem to add machines and move them around. Installing needed electrical later can add frustration and cost.
Oh, one more thing. I'm working on my own plan and a "must have" for me will be sky lights. I've seen many posts stating that they are fantastic for a shop. Just make sure that they aren't on a south facing roof if at all possible. A north facing roof is the best location followed by an east facing roof.
Good luck with your shop. The one item I think of is install some chases for dust collection, wiring, plumbing etc. either in the floor or build joists on top of the floor. Keeping all of that stuff beneath the floor is much easier to do and change (as it always does).
I would love to see your sketchup files.
Must my opinion.
stevo
Thanks Stevo. The DC will have to run on surfaces and over ceiling joists. Actually thought about running DC below-slab, but... well that's a pretty obvious NOT! Plumbing will be minimal (just need a feed to one sink and a drain). I'm going to put a H2O heater under the sink for instant hot. Plumbing will be below grade accept for where I tee off in the garage. What else.....?
One thing you might consider as part of the design stage would be to make a scale cardboard miniature of the building with window cut outs, take it to the building site, and see how natural plays in the space with the building oriented in different ways.
I don't know what type of work you will be doing but proper natural lighting will make the space much more enjoyable to work in, especially when doing hand work. In a production cabinet shop it might not be as critical but will still be worth the trouble.
"The Workshop Book" is worth a look if you haven't already done so. It's got plenty of useful info on this subject. Best of luck
Paul
Edited 1/1/2008 5:07 pm ET by colebearanimals
Thanks Paul. Yes lighting is kinda like clamps, isn't it:) I'm designing in six skylites and as many large windows as I can get away with. The building site is not all that exposed to open sky, mostly just that directly above, so there will definitely be a need for a good amount of indoor electrical ambient light too. I'm one of those over-engineers... in my mind more is ALWAYS better! And yes, I've got The Workshop Book (and several others) close at hand. Books are great! Keeps us from having to remember everything! Chris
There's a pretty cool Self-Centering Mortising Jig for the router that Dave Lehman built and demo'd in issue #191 of FWW. Check it out!
Chris
Chris,
Electrical recepticles - install lots, and then some more. Dedicate circuits for lighting, dust collector, air filter.
I don't know if it's to code, but I clad the walls of my shop with plywood. That way I can screw anything anywhere (to a degree). When putting up panelling, make a mark at the ceiling and or floor for each stud. That just makes finding studs easier.
Light. Lots of it. Windows, skylights, or big doors. I'm sure you already have a big door planned. An overhead door is okay, but when open the block any fluorescents in that given area. Also, they are difficult to insulate. I built a pair of barn doors each 7' high and 36" wide. Each is insulated just like a wall. I omitted the sill, by the way. Aside from your fluorescents, I would also plan some task lighting. Something at the bench, bandsaw, drillpress, etc. to elimate shadows. I've got a magnifying lamp attached to my bench which I find really handy. I can examine my tool edges, pick out slivers, and do detail work.
French cleats are awesome. I've built cabinets for my shop which start at the ceiling and come down to about 4 inches above my height. They provide lots of storage without any chance of bumping into them.
I realize you have a nice big shop, but depending on what you put in it and how you use it, it may not feel so big. Measure the height of your tablesaw and built bases for all of your benchtop tools so that they all have a common height. That's really important in a small shop.
The next shop I build, I'm going to cover the floor with heavy rubber underlay. Easy on the feet, easy on dropped tools, and it dampens vibrations from power tools.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Congrats on the new shop.
My two cents worth, radiant floor heat.
I have in my shop and it is the best! I have a seperate room for
hot water heater and the sink so no worries about dust and finish fumes.
The plywood on the walls is also a good idea.
Electrical, I ran surface mount conduit and plugs. I t's easy to add drops, plug ins or
switches where you need them.
Canoedog
Canoedog, surface-mount didn't even occur to me! It's not the 110V I have a problem with as far as burying it in the walls, ceilings and floors. It's that 220V stuff that has to be so carefully planned. I'm still planning on running a few circuits in conduit beneath the slab (yes, we're going with a concrete floor) for some flush mount receptacles (table saw, jointer, planer, etc), but surface-mount is a great idea. That would really ease the design pressure and build in some flexibility.
I would love to do radiant floor, and we considered it, but decided against. If I was still in Montana you better believe I would put it in, but over here in western Washington the weather is just not extreme enough (in my mind) to justify it (though I've been working in the garage with four layers these last couple of weeks). In Montana (east of the Rockies) I would quit working when it hit 20 F, and that was an unheated shop (just never got around to it).
Mucho appreciato your comments. Keep 'em comin'! Chris
Chris,
You mention running conduit under the slab and flush-mounting recepticles. If you mean mounting them flush to the floor, make sure that the recepticles are covered if not in use. Otherwise they would quickly fill with sawdust - not good!Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Yepper, Chris. Have been down that road with suspended wood floors. No prob with the 110V as covers are readily available. Couldn't find 220V receptacle covers, so either left tools plugged in (not always possible) or did A LOT of vacuuming! The other problem with flush-mounts is the 'C' word (code). I must admit that I got away with quite alot in Montana (what a great state, but things are a'changin' there... still miss it though. -- did you know that, up until a couple of years ago, you could drive down the highway sipping on the adult beverage of your choice... legally? And (I think) there are still counties where you can build a house without a permit).
Anyways... thanks again for your help. Gimme more!
chris
Hey Chris. Thanks for your input! Electrical is covered. That's from first-hand experience. I've wired a couple of shops in the past and now just figure on a 110V outlet every four feet, and of course most, if not all, of the 220V machines get dedicated circuits. If I keep the shop a one or two person operation, I'll probably double up some of the machinery electrically.
I've used OSB as wall paneling before for just the reason you stated, but don't much like the look of it. I'd like to try plywood if I can get away with it. Not sure about code either. May be OK since it's not a living area, but it will be attached so... we'll see how it pans out. I have yet to try the French cleat system, but definetly will this time around. Nobody has anything bad to say about it, and load capacity doesn't seem to be a problem. I'll be building some new shop cabinets too, so they'll get the cleat treatment.
Ahhh, the big door. Ya, I had already pretty much decided against an overhead, but I still haven't decided between a slider and barn doors. Point taken about insulating. I guess in that light, a couple of swingers would be the way to go. Planning on a 10' wide opening, so they'll have to be pretty beefy. I've used the full-thickness wall-door concept before on sheds and even a garage and it's worked well, but I didn't had to contend with weather sealing and insulation.
I can't tell you how nice it is having you guys bounce ideas around. So far, I feel like I'm on a good track. Like minds think alike, I guess. Thanks again!
Chris
For what it's worth,I used OSB in my shop. Giant mistake. ripped out and put plywood up.
OSB is lousy when it comes to holding nails, screws (esp. drywall screw)etc. Without backer boards between the studs for hanging things on, it's only good for light stuff..like conduit screws. Forget French cleats for heavy loads with OSB. I found out early before too many outlet box holes went in. Looks bad too! Go 3/4 ply or 3/4 t/g ply for looks.Re: 8'flour banks. Not many people do it but you might consider installing the closed banks. One of the hidden fire hazards in shops that get overlooked alot when cleaning up is the sawdust that collects on top of the light bank reflectors and on the tops of the individual tubes. It doesn't get vacuumed. This stuff becomes energy waiting to be expended.Don't forget to pre-plan the dust filter air return. Direct dump to outside is a waste of shop heat and causes your unit to intake from leaks in the shop. Locating the filtered return in a separate room is probably the most desirable. And of course, the most expensive.Another idea used in some luxury shops is sound control on the stud side of walls that are going to be near high noise (routers etc.) machines. Foam, baffles, alternating foam baffles etc. The reverb can really hurt your ears...even through muffs long term.39310.7 in reply to 39310.1"Congratulations on the new (future) shop. Here's my 2 cents worth... A small office where you can do planning, keep catalogs, and, most important, a clean place for your computer and coffee pot."Absolutely. Place to study and layout plans, have a comfy chair and a phone.In the best of all possible worlds, A separate spray/finishing room where you can also keep your more volatile finishing stuff and their odors. The Dupont Co. had a interesting design at their gunpowder works on the Delaware. Since it was also a volatile product, they built the individual mills with 3 sides of granite block. The roof and the waterwheel river side where of wood, so when it blew up, they only had to replace the wood parts....and the humans.....
Just design thoughts... :)Don't forget to wire for tunes (for when your doing hand work) It saves your whistler :)
Good luck on the project.John
Edited 1/9/2008 10:47 am by boilerbay
Forgot..plan in your dust ducting grounding needs. You can never have enough grounding. If it makes you feel better, have a direct to in-ground via copper grounding rods or to concrete rebar from any machine your concerned over. The integrated rebar ground in concrete is now code standard in most new pours in most states. Garage type of structures aren't covered. Some electricians will say foo foo, the good ones won't.John
Rebar-ground wouldn't bother me at all. Now's the time.
Congratulations on the new (future) shop. Here's my 2 cents worth... A small office where you can do planning, keep catalogs, and, most important, a clean place for your computer and coffee pot. Next would be a small sink inside the shop where you can wash up or rinse out brushes. I like overhead power reels instead of extension cords. You're less likely to trip over them and you will always have them when needed.
I don't know how cold your area gets, but one or two radiant heet panels should come in handy. How about a seperate room for the air compressor and the vaccume system?
One friend built a 'trap door' in the wall of his shop. It was high enough off the ground that he could slide wood directly from the bed of his truck into the shop without having to lift and carry it any distance.
And finally, do you need outside storage for air drying rough lumber?? It's easier to have a levil concrete floor pad in this area than a dirt floor, and if you plan for it, enough ectra bracing in the wall to support the rack.
SawdustSteve
Most excellent input Steve. I don't think the office is going to happen, but I've gone as far as designing a kind of Foreman's Desk that would also house a PC. Does that count? The office will probably be in the house, which is attached to the garage, which will (probably) be attached to the shop. I'm actually working without a real office right now (am designing a custom to-my-specs desk though), and it's been difficult. Not used to having that quiet little corner to go to.
I've been dragging a nice 4-foot stainless sink/basin around with me for some time, knowing that one day it would find a home in the new shop. Well, it's day has come. Plumbing is one thing I've NEVER had in the shop, and I'm really looking forward to it. I sharpen too, and I've always had to drag stuff into the house to clean it. By the way, I am planning dedicating a 10' x 10' space for a seperate filing room. It's a realy money-maker and it's nice being able to keep my carbide sharp no charge!
I've only got one cord reel (which I use a LOT), but perhaps I'd better plan on picking up one or two more. Good idea. Hadn't thought of that. But I will have several overhead receptacles anyway, so it won't be a problem adding them where need later on.
Do you have radiant panels? I've always found it difficult to believe they'd be that effective. I'd like to hear more about them, 'cause there are times where it would be nice to at least take the edge off. I was figuring on either a 220V blower or a wood stove. Don't really want to give up floor space for a stove, though.
Love the trap door idea, but my lumber storage will be right next to the big door, so shouldn't need it. Space will be limited though, so I guess I'd better start thinking about outdoor storage. There would be room next to the shop, but, unfortunately that side is the only one visible to the neighborhood. Hmmmm. Thanks for bringing it up.
Yes, the compressor and dust collector will be housed in a seperate structure... an 8 x 12 shed attached to the rear of the shop. That will be oh so nice! We'll pour a pad for that too.
Very nice of you to reply. So far so good!
Chris
Telle, Just did this!!!
Depending on your climate, Radiant heated floors,finish your interior walls, cyclone dust collector(Oneida), Hang some power from ceiling to key areas, plenty of t-8, 8ft 4bulb fixtures (about 8 per 600 sq ft),Plenty of air runs, Run tank drain to the outside so you can easily blow the water out daily. Go to the bank for mo money cause youll need it!!!!
Good luck my friend its a fun experience but remember you'll allways gonna say " should have done this, done that" so don't over think things
-Lou
Lou... "Don't overthink things???"..... guilty, but it's something I've had to come to terms with and have actually learned to use to my advantage. Paralysis by Analysis is the real devil, and THAT is what I have had to overcome. Getting all your input is the final stage of "overthinking" on this project, PRIOR to going to work. I'm looking for the minutiae, the more subtle details that are easier to include during construction. It's a luxury I've rarely been able to enjoy in the past. All that you mentioned, excepting the radiant floor heat and 4-ft floresent tubes (I was going to go with T-8 eight-footers and CW ballasts) is in The Plan. I've got an auto drain on my IR compressor that will either be routed through the wall or to a floor drain, and already have the cyclone (wouldn't have it any other way!... not true, I've lived without it until now). As far as $ goes....... hell, it's only money... can't take it with you...... besides, I'm not funding the project, just executing it! Yee Haw! The beauty of saying, "I should have done this... I should have done that," is that, as you move on, and if you live long enough, you CAN do "this" and "that!" That's where I'm at right now. There will always be change and improvement IN the shop, I know, but it's the underlying guts of the shop that, when you're in a position to build from ground up, you want to pay particular attention to... to OVERthink. What a luxury... I know all of you can relate. c
Paralysis by analysts!!! I like that one
-Lou
guilty :)
Good morning Chris,
One thing I didn't mention but wish I had done when I built my shop a couple of years ago was to form a channel in the concrete floor to the table saw location that dust collection and electrical could lay in. You could also form a lip on the sides to accommodate steel plates (or other material) that will be flush with the floor and allow easy access.
Even with a good size shop it's still a bummer to have a ductwork/electrical drop in the middle of your space. But if you are going to have a support pillar you could use that without messing with the floor.
It's just something I regret not doing.
Paul
Good thoughts, Paul. I was going to make sub-slab electrical runs and MAYBE put a sweep on the panel end so that I MIGHT be able to pull or run wire if need be in the future. A guy I know also suggested forming channels, but I really don't see the advantage. Help me out here...
Chris
Hi Chris,
Sorry about not responding sooner. We've had a pretty good storm blow through which pushed over a rather large Fir tree that in turn trimmed the overhead power lines and cable. But, all is now well.
What I wanted to do , for my tablesaw/ assy. table that's located out in the middle of the shop, was to run both dust collection ductwork and electrical through the concrete floor by forming it before the pour and use steel plates or other suitable material cover the channel flush with the floor. This would allow fairly easy access for clean-out or replacement of the DC and electrical changes or additions. This would then eliminate a vertical drop from the ceiling and leave a more open space.
Conduit with pulling ells would be a solution for the electrical but I figured that since I was making a channel for the DC ductwork I might as well run the electrical with it.
I really kick myself for not doing this at the construction phase. But, this summer I plan on getting a concrete saw and having at it.
Paul
I feel ya, man! I want so much to run DC in- or below-slab, but the thing's only four, maybe five inches thick. I'd end up with a series of mini-slabs! I am all into having as much open space as possible, but I just don't want to mess with the concrete for DC. If I'd gone with a wooden floor, it would have been a done deal. Electrical? Oh ya. E-conduit takes up a heck of a lot less space that 6" pipe. I don't evny you going to work on your floor with the saw. What kind of total cut length are we talkin?
I'm only talking about 20- 25' max. From one outside wall to the tablesaw location. All the DC " drops" for the rest of the machinery will be around the periphery. Well, I'm still not sure if it going to be worth the trouble. Darn. Should have done it during construction. Oh well. It's not the end of the world either way.
Enjoy the process. It's not everyday one is able to build a custom workshop
Paul
I keep thinking over and over about forming in DC runs. I'd really like to do it. I'll mostly likely have four or five machines located centrally, so it could get complicated. Also, I'm concerned with having floor runs "lock" me into fewer layout configurations, limiting my ability to rearrange in the future. Hmmmm. Better think quick. Spring's around the corner! Thanks
In my shop most of my machinery is around the perimeter. Those that need to be used out from the wall will be connected from above with a section (as short as possible) of flexible hose.
The only in-floor ductwork would be for the table saw. My plan is to build a large (8'x11') torsion box outfeed/side support table around the table saw that will double as a reference work table. With that arraignment I could come from overhead with my main ductwork line and drop down at one corner of the table and then over to the table saw. So, instead of having that always in the way I'm going to put that ductwork in the floor with the electrical.
A maze of ducting in the floor probably isn't the best approach. Besides cutting up the slab too much it would limit your flexibility on machine placement, as you said.
With a group of centrally located machines (depending on what they are and how you use them) and with their backs to each other, a single ductwork drop should work quite well and wouldn't really be getting in the way.
A shop is a very personal thing .Depending on your work habits, type and size of your projects, only you can really decide what's right for you.Stay as flexible as you can. Work in the space and see how it goes. Maybe waiting and cutting in a channel later is the best approach after all.
Paul
Paul, it's always nice to hear the Voice of Reason in times of, well..... distress. Your counsel is well-received.
Hey Chris,
Just thought I would throw my two cents in about underfloor runs for dust collection. It's simple to form in when pouring your floor and after doing this in my last two shops to get collection out to my table saw it is well worth the effort. In my present shop I had to cut out the floor after the fact. It wasn't to bad you only have to score down into the concrete a couple of inches then a demolition hammer makes short work of removing the concrete. The worst part was cutting thru the wire mesh.
You might also consider placing a floating floor out of 3/4 inch plywood over your concrete. Lay down a layer of plastic sheeting then cover over that with 15# felt paper then lay 3/4 inch tounge and groove plywood over that. Drill and fasten along the outside edges with cabcon srews or install a baseboard. Makes the concrete floor much more comfy on the feet and more forgiving on dropped tools and parts. For my 1200 Sq foot shop it cost me about $400.00 in materials and a days work laying the plywood.
Have also found that a mixture of floresant and incadesent fixtures give a better balance of lighting in the shop.
Michael
Thanks Michael. One of the early considerations was concrete or wood floor. I've had both (last one was, in actuality, an indoor deck), but my strong preference is for concrete for a number of reasons. I could always retrofit a floater later on.
As far as lighting, this shop will have some of ALL of the commonly used sources: overhead floresent (CW ballasts) for primary nightime/inclement weather (and on at least three seperate circuits for limited use in daytime hours), a fair amount of task lighting designed in, and more added later where needed, several large-ish double hung windows (easter/western exposure... design constraints), four to six good-sized skylights, a ten-foot slider or barn-style door, and, of course, the bright light bulb above my head that clicks on with every great idea (I wish there were more, but that's what I'm talking to you all for!)
Michael, tell me more about forming in your DC. Were they central lines? Branches? What diameter ductwork? How deep? Mesh or rebar reinforced? Steel caps? Any problems after-the-fact? Any strong suggestions based on what you know now?
I'm thinking that, if I did go this route, I'd like to place a central trunk right down the middle of the shop to hit the 5 or 6 machines located away from the walls How's that sound? Thanks again.
For forming my run in the floor it was a retrofit so it was supported from the exsisting slab. For a new pour you could make a three sided box out of plywood reinforced across it with 2x4 blocking.Determine where the channel needs to be and drive rebar down into the ground fastening the channel box to the rebar to keep it in place. I would run some rebar that is bent to tie the channel and the floor together. On the last two pours for shop floors I have used the fiber reinforced concrete.In the last 10 years I have built one shop from scratch and retrofitted two exsisting buildings into shops. Hopefully the one I am in now is the last one.
One thing I have learned is do as much as you can afford initialy to make it the shop of your dreams because it's much easier doing it once and easier on the pocketbook in the long run.
My duct is the end of my main branch at this point it is a 5" diameter duct.I brought it up under neath the junction of my rightside wing table and my 4'x8' outfeed table for my saw. I sized my channel to be about an inch bigger than the duct on all sides. When I did my floating floor out of plywood I cut the plywood so that I could remove it over the ductwork in case of ant future plugs in the line or other need to get to the line.
Michael
Very cool. Thanks for the tips on the forms, Michael. I know what you mean about "investing" yourself into a shop, and then moving on to the next one. It's nice being able to incorporate past ideas and experiences into the next "dream" shop (it could probably go on and on!) I actually don't think this will be the last one for me, but what the heck... I 'm willing to go overboard (?) to make it right. The next one will just be that much better.
Love the fiber reinforced conctrete. I've done quite a bit of fiberglass boat-building (with epoxy), so it feels right at home. Besides, my Dad hasn't developed a single crack in his floor yet using it. Rebar's not that much fun. Thanks Michael.
On the electrical plan--
In my 30' x 50' shop, I've installed 110v electrical drops, from the ceiling to about 6 1/2 feet off the floor (or whatever suits you). When I built my shop, we ran everything in metal conduit, and fittings to transition from the conduit to the 12/2/G flex cord are available at any home improvement store.
Position the drops anywhere you do certain tasks fairly often (sanding, routing, drilling, etc.); they sure beat running extensions from the wall, giving you something to trip over!
I also have four of them over my 4 1/2 x 10 foot workbench; this way, you can leave multiple tools plugged in and not have to constantly switch receptacles when you use a different tool.
If space in your breaker box is limited, you should be able to put several of them on the same circuit, as the chance of running more than one or two 110v tools on a 20 amp circuit is usually slim.
Enjoy your new shop!
Interesting take on the drop using flex, Kreuzie. How is it holding up to mechanical loads? Do the drops ever seem to "get in the way?" I almost always use the portable belt sanders with overhead electrical. It sure is a great way to keep that cord in control. A previous poster mentioned surface runs, and it's now something I am considering, at least for some circuits. I've run metalic conduit before, and it certainly has it's advantages... hmmmm. Appreciate your thoughts.
chris
Chris--
No problems with getting in the way, as they are positioned above your head.
They'll take quite a strain, too. When tying into the metal handi-box (or whatever) on the ceiling, I used a kind of j-shaped fitting (not sure of the name) that has a box connector on the end that goes in the box, and the end that holds the flex in a vertical position has a screw clamp on the flex to relieve strain. Put a female receptacle (heavy duty) at a height that suits you, and you're in business!
Kreuzie
Beautiful! You're idea has now been "officially" incorporated into The Plan. Thanks!
Beautiful, Kreuzie! Your idea has now "officially" been incorporated into the plan. Overhead extension reels are fine, but with 10' ceilings?... I'd have to put a cord stop higher up to keep the thing from retracting out of reach anyway. I like the idea of the "toughness" of the EMT flex, too. Very good.
Chris--
Maybe you misunderstood me. I don't use flexible galvanized or aluminum conduit for the drops. Instead, I use plain old vinyl jacketed 12/2 with a ground, and it works great! I even used the bright yellow stuff for visibility. I think I found it at Lowe's.
Dave
As a woodworker in Great Falls, MT, do you still live in the Windy City?
Nope. Don't live in GF anymore. We've had some pretty strong and gusty stuff out here in Seattle lately, and I keep telling everyone that it's more like a light breeze. HA! I think it's been raining for a monthf! I miss MONTANA!!!
First off, if your addition is connected to "living" quarters you need a 2 hour fire break (double 5/8" drywall). You can however install anything over that once inspected (ie 3/4" plywood). If you are connecting to a garage wall then you can cover walls with anything you want.
Second is lighting. I would stick with regular 4' fixtures. But go with 5000k bulbs (daylight). Makes the area seem brighter while still using same power.
Third is windows. I would skip them. For me I would rather have the wall space than the many windows that would be needed for enough light to come in. Skylights on the other hand is a good idea. Also for me heating in the winter is an issue and solid walls are much better for heating. My shop is 24 x 60 and only have 3 windows on the south east wall.
One thing I did was install 4x4 boxes with 2 duplexes in each. 1 duplex was on a 20 amp circuit, and the other 15 amp. That way if I have too, I can run several high draw items with out having to run cords from some other part of the shop. I did this every 10' the lenth of my shop, 1 on each long wall, and 1 down the center. So 6 circuits for normal 110 power (3 - 20's and 3 - 15's). I have 2 different circuits within 6' from anywhere, and 4 different circuits available within 12' no matter where I am in the shop.
Thanks benhas. Yes the shop will be an attached-attachment (to the garage), and this is still actually only a "PROBABLY." I having a roof design problem due to position, orientation, slope and height that I have yet to overcome... at least in an elegant way, so the shop could end up being detached.
I like the daylight bulbs too, but I insist on HO/CWs and I don't yet know if daylights are offered in that config. Do you? Need to do some research on that.
No windows? Yikes. Couldn't do it, colonel. There might be a sacrifice of insulation and wall space, but one of the prerequisites is that the shop has to match the existing architecture, especially with it being positioned 'prior' to the house when driving in. And, being able to look out at 'the world' during the day has, to me, a positive pychological benefit on my work. Also, I believe the positioning and orientation of windows has a big effect on how much natural light you end up with indoors, especially if it's direct (which none of my will be). Retrofitting windows, even small ones, made a big difference in my previous shops, enough to where, at times in my last shop, I worked with only one floresent light circuit on (ie two fixtures) during the day. Must have windows.
Oh ya, I don't even install 15A circuits in my shops. Just go 20A all around, since the 20's will accept 15A plugs.
"For example, my shop in Great Falls, MT had seven foot ceilings!"
Ha, well my celings are 6'.
I should have a sign that says "you have to be under 6' to enter this shop"
well I don't have many cool Ideas (or any ideas at all come to think of it)
"I'd rather be a hammer than a nail"
Edited 1/16/2008 10:47 pm ET by andyfew322
While everyone will say to install lots of outlets, I will go one better. Surface mount your circuit breaker panel so that it will be easy to add whatever future changes you will inevitably need via surface run conduit. Most of your construction wiring will still be in the walls and cieling if it is stick-frame built. Have your electrician run a couple of large conduits to deep junction boxes in the cieling to allow for future needs. In my shop I use cieling drop cords with strain-releifs at both ends for machinery that sits away from the walls; I hate having to constantly trip over extension cords. In my new addition to the shop I spec'd 4-square boxes for 4-plex outlets every 6 feet along the outer walls, set at 44" from the floor.
I would also suggest to hang drywall on the walls and cielings. Building code will require 5/8" type x for commercial use. tape, finish, and paint it white. There are two reasons for this. First it makes it easier to control stray sawdust that will be everywhere. But more importantly this way the cieling will act like a giant reflector for your lighting. I find a bright shop to be easier to work in. Remember to plan for shop security. Burglar alarm system, security doors/windows, etc. Commercial shop just seem to attract the wrong kind of attention that way, and you need to protect your tool investment from the idiots. Best of luck.
Edited 1/17/2008 8:27 am by BigK
Edited 1/17/2008 8:34 am by BigK
Unlike many others here, I'd recommend not putting either electrical or dust collection in the concrete floor. In a few years, your shop layout may change due to a difference in what you're building, and you might find yourself moving major machinery around to accommodate those changes. Then the receptacles and dust collection pathways will all be in the wrong place. Also, as other posters have alluded to, it's difficult keeping debris out of floor receps. In my area they're pretty much being discouraged due to the potential problems they create. Water and nails can fall into them, they get crushed and walked on, they don't provide good protection for the cord or plug.
Hanging dust collection ducts and wiring from the ceiling makes it a lot easier to make changes down the line - surface mount wiring is a good idea that someone else proposed. And, because that space is wasted anyway, it makes sense to fill it up with that stuff.
I'd ditto using plywood or OSB on the walls - and especially painting it white. Drywall on the ceiling works fine, and is the cheapest way to go.
Another poster commented about installing no or few windows. Though I like natural light as well as anyone, that's something to consider. Wall space is valuable in a shop. I have floor to ceiling shelves in several areas of mine. Be sure to plan such storage items in your layout. And, most importantly - lumber storage. Too often we get caught up in other things and don't pay enough attention to what generally takes up the most space in a shop - raw materials. Designed in from the start, you're better off than a lot of us are having to fit things in here and there as our lumber piles grow.
You said you were going to have a concrete floor. Someone mentioned floating a plywood floor over the concrete, and that's something to think about. Sticking an inch or so of rigid foam board insulation under the ply would yield a very comfortable floor - and one that would contribute to the energy efficiency of the shop. Bare slabs, like the one I have in my shop, act like a big heat sink. And they're uncomfortably hard and cold to stand on for any length of time.
Good luck, Zolton
* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Ya, that's the rub, isn't it. The relative inflexibilty of forming DC runs into the floor is what holds me back, more than anything, from that idea. I'm on the fence with that. I don't see a problem with the electrical though. Even if I do move machinery, those e-runs can be used by something, and if I allow myself enough room in the panel for add-ons I'll be OK. I was even thinking about including some spare runs in various spots around the floor for future circuits. I'd just have to make sure I somehow install sweeps or pulls in such a way that I can get to them and pull heavier gauge wire...... maybe I'll just keep everything above ground. We'll see. I appreciate your take
I've used flush mount receptacles, some of my "design," and would recommend it to anyone (as long as they're in code, of course.) You're right, it can be a challenge to keep the crap out. I mostly use them for stationary stuff that stays plugged anyway, stuff that isn't hardwired, which has been pretty much everything up to this point, because everything has had to be mobile. Hopefully, that will change with this shop.
I've been racking my brain trying to come up with more lumber/plywood storage. As the design stands, I'm limited to a 12' section next to the big door with 10' ceilings. I've got a plywood rack sitting below three or four shelves worth of length storage. It's OK for what I'm doing now, but I can see it becoming a real problem in the future. I'm going to have two interior rooms (filing/sharpening and a spray booth) that I could possible lower the ceiling height on to store lumber above, but...
I may be an exception, but I've always been as comfortable on concrete as wood, so a poured floor doesn't bother me in that respect. I thought I might put a couple of inches of rigid foam under the slab (was thinking about radiant floor). Not sure how much good it wood do though. I'm so used to working in an unheated shop in very cold weather that I probably really don't know what I'm missing. Anyway, wood floor is a possibilty, but later.
Even if it's stuff I've thought about and decided on, it's great having you all throwing stuff at me. Keeps me on my toes, and I want to do this as "Right" as possible. I want any changes/modifications I make later on to be minor ones... if possible
Thanks Zolton
Thanks BigK. I am my electrician, and I like the idea of surface-mounting the e-panel. Are you suggesting that I place several J-boxes within the wall near the panel location, and then run conduit to the panel from there? Point taken on running some extra conduit for future use. I'm was actually thinking about doing something like that for the floor runs too.
No, there will be absolutely NO extension cords, or anything else for that matter, to trip over in this shop. Clear, clean traffic flow is JUST ABOUT as important as the space the tools take up in my opinion. No point in HAVING the tools if you can't get to them, right?
There will be no shortage of 20A circuits in this shop. I had something like 25 duplexes in my 14x24, including flush floor- and ceiling-mount... every four feet, and then several long power strips, too.
The only reason(s) I don't like rock is it's ability to stand up to the corners of sheets of plywood and the fact that I have to tape and mud... and I DO tape and mud. I could never see the point of bothering to hang sheetrock and then leaving it bear to yellow and deteriorate, and we see it all to often, don't we. Anyway, if I do go with rock, it will be finished and painted semi-gloss white, or at least some light color (that's another "light source" I forgot to mention in a previous post: the indirect reflected light from the bright colored walls and ceiling). I used sheetrock in the last shop, finished and painted, even in the recessed lighting boxes, and boy did it take a beating, but things were packed in there pretty good, and the 7' ceilings didn't help AT ALL.
7' ceilings. No wonder that the rock took such a beating. I painted mine with a stock white latex, eggshell sheen. It has just enough of a sheen so that it can be scrubbed if necessary. My sheetrock has not taken very much abuse, but I have 14' ceilings.
I meant to suggest that you place a couple of deep junction boxes in the ceiling, fed with 3/4" conduit. That would make it easier to supply some of your machinery drops with surface runs later and also easier to move things around as the need arises. My sparky set these up during the rough-in with full size extensions to poke through the rock for later use. He actually went one step further and set a j-box fed with 3/4 about the middle of each long side wall for added flexibility with machinery later also.
Congrats on the shop. I'm hoping to start a new one this summer also. For suggestions have you seen the write-up on Matthew Teague's shop? (Tools and Shops annual issue) I'm planning on using quite a few of his ideas since I was planning on the same size shop. There are only a few changes I'll make. One is to make the office and bathroom a spray room. I'll move the bathroom a little. I was only going to have one rollup door and I am going to run the dust collection and power for the tablesaw in the slab.
Hey W, congrats to you, too. Yes, I've followed Mathew's progress. As always, more good stuff to pick up. Nice lumber rack. Good for you building a spray room. I'm really looking forward to that. We've been improvising big time ever since we got here. During the summer months we were painting cabinets/cupboards in the back yard with my brother's airless. We then put together a rusty old stell tent frame (10 x 14 x 10 high), slapped a tarp and some 4mil over it (and lots of duct tape... I wasn't involved in that project) and called that the spray booth... it's sitting on the deck just outside the garage/shop door. Well, the weather got cold, and it's pretty humid here near Seattle, and he kept a grill and propane heater under there too. Needless to say, it started raining on the new paint. Then the wind came and blew the house down (I'm not making this stuff up!). When it got really cold, he moved into the shop and hung plastic from the rafters. Of course, I could build while he was finishing, so that was down time (hard to make money when you're not working). He then scored some 4 x 8 sheets of corrugated sign plastic, did some cutting and folding, and presto, something that looked almost professional. Problem is, he didn't set up a draw, so now I've got what looks like soot (black latex overspray) settled onto, well, everything close anyway.
To make a long story short (too late) sure can't wait to build that spray booth. 10 x 10 minimum and I'm trying to come up with a way to increase the size.
No offense W, but I couldn't imagine wasting shop space on a bathroom (I probably just offended a BUNCH of folks... sorry). But then, I'm used to not having much shop space... I couldn't have afforded a bathroom. Thanks for writing and hope you get your shop up soon!
c
Chris,
If you're going with a 30x40' layout, think about these things,too.
Go for at least a 4/12 roof pitch. That will give you room for attic storage. Use an extra truss or two to carry the plywood decking, or go for 3" tubing for the trusses on the ones you are currently planning. If the building is in your backyard, you might consider a 9ft. wall so it looks good in relation to yours and other houses.
Use as much insulation as you can afford. While working, you'll use the "open door" concept as much as possible, but when the extreme heat or cold hits, keeping a working temp inside will be easier to work in and more affordable. Spend the dollars if you are using forced air heating, so you can get a unit that uses outside air for combustion. Having one like that won't be effected by a dust collection system's pull if ducted outside. Also wire your ceiling for plugs and ceiling fans. I use my two 48", three speed, reversible, even during the winter.
Use WHITE for the metal roof if heat will be an issue. The "Phone Company" spent many dollars on research of what roof to use on their booster buildings. They chose White because next to reflective silver, it reflects the most sun back to the sky while it looks good too.
Consider at least 4 floor plugs that have a 4 wire run. That way you can add a sub panel and keep the Netural and Ground separate as required by code. That way you can have additional 110v plugs for those machines and tools without extension cords. Remember to add one or two outside plugs one or two of the outside walls for weed-eaters, outside motion detection lighting and that future additon on the back of the shop for lumber storage and noisy things like air compressors and dust collector motors.
Think about putting slider windows in and raising them to 6'-6" so air can get in and out, but the height slows down peeking eyes and night visitors trying to take your stuff...
I used 4x8' sheets of Exterior Hardiboard siding as my inside drywall and painted it with a light color of Exterior Semi-gloss paint. The light color helps and wall cleaning can easily be done with low pressure compressed air. QUALITY AND CHEAP Paint and Hardiboard can be found a the Big Box stores when "Oops" mismatched paint comes back or material is returned. Mine is Sears' Weatherbeater Exterior. They get gallon cans that are dented and sell them for $5 because they won't put dented can in the paint shaker. The color in the photo is "A-081".
Stay away from open shelving' somehow it seemingly sucks in dust and dirt and covers everything. Flea markets are great places to find enclosed metal cabinets that just need a coat of paint.
Wiring your lighting, I found 3 forty watt tubes per 100 sq. feet is bright, add at least one bank of lights on a 3-way switch with it on the other end of the building. Sure saves time.
If you use a garage door, think about one with rails, one that is insulated and opens high enough for a big SUV to drive into. Rollup doors are Okay, but hardily any insulation value can be gained.
Lastly, I know you can't do it all and all at once. But, if you plan for "when" you find your materials at a bargain price, you'll be so glad you did by saving tears, time and dollars. Good luck with your Dream!!
Bill
Edited 1/17/2008 11:28 pm ET by BilljustBill
If you are going to run plumbing to a sink, think of installing a toilet or at least a urinal.....seriously. Save alot of trips to the house or out back of the shop!!
I lined my shop with OSB. Yes it does have it's drawbacks as to holding drywall screws and heavy loads, but maybe that's not a big deal. I trowled on a coat or two of drywall mud and then sanded it down, painted it with semigloss latex and that improved the looks of the OSB....gave it a leathery texture. When I hang anything heavy, I can see where the studs are every 4 feet and fo from there.
Definately put in a trench for DC and elecrtical to the table saw, planer, etc. I wish I had it in my shop.
The 6'X6" windows are going to appear in my shop when I re-do the aluminum siding that was damaged by a hail storm. I'm going to install them up high for light and "night stalkers" as mentioned before.
Good luck with the new shop.
Hey Bill, why so may trips to the urinal??? Hmmmmm?
Thanks for your input on DC, e- and OSB (hey! I'm a poet! Didn't even knowit!)
We live on a cul-de-sac outside of town, and in twenty years have never had a single incident. Now, I know that doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but we'll put a good security system on the shop to be sure. We still leave the vehicle and house doors unlocked around here and we're only 25 MILES from Seattle! Who'd o' thunk?
Why aluminum? Maybe YOU ought to think about Hardi Planks. Good stuff. Very tough... hell, it's concrete for cryin' out loud. Thanks again, Bill!
Bill. 4/12 pitch and 10' walls is a done deal. We want to keep the profile as low as possible due to the position of the shop relative to the house. 9' walls wouldn't help much for the same reason, so I just as soon gain the overhead space.
Still haven't quite decided what to do with attic space. I know I want to put in a ceiling, which means lots of fun framing in skylights, which is about the only reason, other than lighting and coziness... and insulation, I don't leave it all open. I figured on an attic ladder, but that space, which will be limited anyway, won't do much good if access is limited too. Following me here? What would you all do with the overhead in my place? It'll be a stick frame (ALMOST surely), I'd like four to six skylights and a ceiling...... and I wouldn't mind blowing in some R40+ either. Thoughts?
Another reason outside air combustible is necessary is to keep the orange stuff forming on your tools. No gas here. Will probably rely on 220V electrical heat when needed, and local electrical for task work. There will be plenty of ceiling-mount receptacles. Hadn't thought of ceiling fans. Ya, keep that warm air where it's needed most, right? Very good.
Roof will be architectural asphalt to match the house and garage. Preferable in winter around here anyway. No worries on electrical. If a sub-panel goes in, it will be during new construction (I may need it anyway). The shop will have an attached insulated shed for the DC and compressor, and yes, there will be at least four exterior 20A receptacles (and one 50A for the welders) and exterior lighting.
On windows, I'm going with double hung this time, and I thought about raising them to above eye level, but I'd rather risk it and keep them relatively low. That way I can see them coming, right? Ha! Everyone's got there preferences and priorities, and one of mine is feeling, as much as possible, that I'm working outside. Pring eyes? That's what the security system and AK-47 are for!
Hey, I like the Hardiboard idea! I've installed the siding. Not fun to cut without the shears, but I'd put my money on it for durability. But 4 x 8 sheets INDOOR? Hmmm. I would think you'd still have to hit studs with anything of weight though. Did you go with it mainly for the ease of cleaning? I mean, it's not cheap and it sure as heck isn't light.
My partner and brother is a commercial painting foreman. I'm in paint and finish heaven over here! No worries getting whatever we need cheaply, but more often, freely. We're going to seal the concrete with the best epoxy (or whatever) money can buy. Yee haw!
Thank you for the shelving comment. I don't don't do open shelving. You're right. It collects and, to my eye, is cluttered, no matter how organized. I avoid shelves at all actually, and use drawers whenever possible.
No SUVs around here. Thanks Bill!
I figured on an attic ladder, but that space, which will be limited anyway, won't do much good if access is limited too. Following me here?
I used two pull-down stairs. One is placed about 1/3 th length from the end of the shop and opens toward one end of the attic. The other opens facing the opposite end of the shop. This way if I need to store something long, it's got about 12' the distance before it would hit the end wall.
I would spend the few extra dollars and get the stairs what have a 25" wide opening and 6" wide stairs. The are so much more safe and comfortable than the narrow 3" stairs.
Hey, I like the Hardiboard idea! I've installed the siding. Not fun to cut without the shears, but I'd put my money on it for durability. But 4 x 8 sheets INDOOR? Hmmm.
I used the ungrooved, soffit material on 24" centers. It's a bit lighter in weight and cheaper than the Serria siding. Just hang anything on the studs or if you know where your cabinets or heavyweight glue clamps are going to hang, just add a 2x6 between the studs before you hang your walls. I bought latex, semi gloss exterior paint and rolled it on the walls. Sure makes dusting and wall cleanup easy. A local lumberyard would deliver the sheets, and sold any damaged sheets for half price. On my present shed project, several months ago, I stumbled across some returned/stored damaged Serria sheets with 3"-10" of the corners broken at the local Lowes one evening. The store manager sold 16 sheets for $30. A gambrel roof has to have the corners sawn off anyway.... Before that, I saw a sign on a stack of Hardiboard sheets at the local HD. They had been damaged by the prongs of a forklift with a set of 6" wide by 1" deep clips knocked out. They had 32 of them for $10 a sheet; plus the amount qualifed for no intrest/no pymts. for 12 months.... The 3" wide Hardiboard trim easily covers the damaged area. Just keep your eyes open.
As far as attic storage, plan to have "Walk through" trusses. It will give you a pathway to crawl or stoop, and allow you to divide your "stuff" into certain storage zones. I used Sturdifloor decking for the attic floor on 24" centers. I don't store V-8 motor blocks up there, but it will support most of the items you'll use for a shop.
Those ceiling fans run on a very slow speed. Now that it's Winter, one runs in reverse and one in the normal direction. They are across the shop from the forced air vents, so they spread the heating and cooling evenly all year long.
The height of the garage door to clear a SUV is only for a reference. You'll like that high of an opening when you start backing in and unloading your 20" bandsaw or tall metal cabinets. I've found that buying old "Laterial Filing Cabinets" that have150lb rated ball bearing guides and the front pops open like old Barriester Bookcases are great storage.
Good luck with your shop. I think you'll find it's a never-ending quest....
Bill
Telle,
Be sure to your ceilings are no lower than 10 feet. This allows you to install ceiling fans as needed and still be able to turn a sheet of plywood without much trouble.
Install either roll up doors (armadillo style) or double, barn style doors that hang on rollers and a metal track and are opened by pushing to the right and left. The metal tracks that are typical of garage doors will significantly reduce ceiling height and often times gets in the way, not to mention blocks lighting when they are open. I would also suggest a large front and back door in the main working area for good, open air, ventilation during the times of year when the weather is pleasant.
Just a personal preference thing; When I built my shop last year (32x40). I wanted it to look like a barn. I feel the barn design inspires creativity. It also has an 8 foot by 32 foot loft that is accessed by a pull down ladder inside the shop. The loft provides additional storage and during the summer acts like a chimney helping to pull the heat out of the work area. I live in NE Florida, so we get plenty of heat. The loft also has a large, removable, panel type opening/door at each end.
Good luck and have fun, Screen
Good tips, 56. The ceilings are 10'. Can't go any higher for asthetic reasons. Belive me, I know about low ceilings! I was flipping full sheets under 7-footers prior to this!
I had already decided on barn style or slider doors. Can't use the split slider 'cause there'll be a walk door on one side. Might be able to work with that if we go detached. We just designed in a rear walk door that will open onto the back yard deck area. I'm still not sure I'm going to put it in because it's a potential sacrifice to work/wall space. I'd like to have it. We'll see.
If we were'nt limited to the 10' ceiling/4-12 pitch I would seriously consider a barn style shop. I love the idea of your spacious loft, but it's just not gonna happen with this one. Maybe the next??? I hope!
Thanks Screen!
My grandfather built all the buildings at the farmstead where I grew up in the early to middle part of the last century. All the doors to the barn and shop-granary were of the sliding type. They were all solid doors except the shop door which had a walk-in type door incorporated within the sliding door. Pretty neat.
I forgot to mention this very important tidbit. I have lived in 3 cities where you can have your building taxed as a barn because it has sliding doors! Much lower tax than a garage. You may want to check with your local tax people if your town has same or similar rules. So it may be beneficial to have sliding doors. My father-in-laws neighbor just did this with a large 2 story shop in MA. Just becasue he used sliding doors. It is being taxed as a barn. It has concrete floor, windows, and power. He just had to have sliding doors for the tax break.
SWEET!!! I will definitely check into that one! I know I was going to be very careful about designating this as a "Shop" vs. a "Garage" because I think they differentiate between the two up here. I've been down to County twice and need to make a couple more trips to ferret out some more needed info before we get the permits going. Thanks a lot, benhasajeep! (year and model?)
My screen name should be plural. We currently have 5 jeeps. 1982 scrambler, 1988 Grand Wagoneer, 1993 Jeep Wrangler, 1999 Jeep Cherokee, and a 2000 Jeep Wrangler. Wife wants a new 4 door model but going to have to wait till our truck is paid off first.
Ha! Right! "Ben&WifehaveJeeps!" (I'm getting writer's cramp!)
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