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| I’m new to the discussions…Not knowing the lay of the land, I posted the following in the Ask the Experts section; should’ve posted here!
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| I’ve been coveting one of the biggest shoulder planes out there: the Lie-Nielsen 073. However, after reading Chris Gochnour’s current article on Reasons to Own a Shoulder Plane, and re-reading an older article on shoulder planes reviewed, I am left with uncertainty as to which shoulder plane I should purchase as my first (and possibly only – though who am I kidding?). I see in the photos in the current article that Mr. Gochnour uses the two different relative sizes (let’s just call them medium at 3/4″ wide and large at 1-1/4″ wide). I realize that use should dictate which size plane I purchase. However, Peter Korn, in A Woodworkers Guide to Hand Tools, states that a large plane is often be preferable and may be used for even small work. But, you can’t get into 3/4 dadoes with a large plane. Is that the only thing that I’d be losing with the large plane? If one were to purchase only one plane, which should it be? I’m really getting at size here…
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Edited 10/24/2006 7:51 pm by Ananda
Replies
Ananda,
Reading between the lines - it wasn't all that cryptic - it sounds like you have already bought both of them, so the real question is: Which one do I buy first? :)
Since cleaning up 3/4" dados is a task you seem to have in mind, it would make sense to buy the 3/4" plane first. Who knows, you may find that it does everything you need. Keep in mind this is from a guy who's only shoulder plane is a 1" skewed woody - which works great by the way.
-Chuck
P.S.
Welcome to Knots.
Edited 10/24/2006 9:55 pm ET by chuckh
I'm not so sure about cleaning up a 3/4-inch dado with a 3/4-inch shoulder rabbet plane...
First if the body of the plane is really 3/4-inch, the iron is going to be .005-inches (or more) wider so running it into a dado is going to widen it, if you can do it at all. It won't clean the sides in any case, for that you need side rabbet planes like Stanley 98/99s.
To clean up the bottom of a dado a router plane is better, or to cut them in one go a dado plane with nickers and a depth stop is the thing.
So I wouldn't worry too much about the dado-ing aspects. FWIW I'd recommend the larger of your two choices.
Best Regards,
David C.
Ananda,
For your initial shoulder plane, get the one that fits your hand best. That way you can maneuver it around the work piece as necessary and it is comfortable to use. Otherwise, you'll likely be more inclined not to use it.
There has been some good advice posted above. I second the idea that a router plane is the first choice for flattening dado bottoms, as well as using side rabbits for widening them. If you want to use a shoulder plane for flattening ¾" dadoes, then you probably want the 11/16" shoulder plane that Clifton makes (#410), so that the body and iron will fit in the dado; it will work, but is not the best tool for that job.
I have one each of LN's 073, LN's ½" bronze, and Clifton's #400 (3/8") shoulder planes. All of them are superb tools, so you really can't go wrong with any of them. IME, it mostly depends on what kind/size of work you're doing and the size of your hands. A longer (shoulder) plane is better for registering the plane to the work and keeping the cut flat. A smaller plane gets into places that a larger one won't. Sometimes the extra weight of the larger plane is desirable, at other times, it isn't or is irrelevant. FWIW, for a medium size shoulder plane to be purchased sometime in the future, I'm looking at the Clifton 11/16" #410.
Shoulder planes are great and very useful tools. It is good that you have done the research before spending your money, and you appear to understand that shoulder planes are pretty specialised tools that do a couple of things really well. If most or all of your intended use is for trimming rebates or tenon shoulders and tongues, then you might instead/also consider a low angle rabbit block plane; its length and width have some advantages over a shoulder plane for some applications.
Bottom line here is pretty simple: 1) Buy a quality plane (new: LN, Clifton, LV; vintage: pre-WWII Stanley, Preston, Record, Spiers, Norris, Matheson, etc.); 2) Get a shoulder plane that is comfortable in your hand; 3) You're probably going to end up, eventually, buying more than one -- buy the size that fits most of the work you do now, and buy the other(s) when you need them in the future; 4) Use the right tool for the job -- if you need to flatten dado bottoms, use an appropriately-sized (crank neck) chisel or, better, a router plane; if you need to widen a dado, use a paring chisel or a pair of side rabbit planes, etc.
Good luck and have fun! Hand planes are like clamps: you can never have enough. It's a slippery slope you're standing on the edge of... <shove> <shove> Oops! sorry...didn't mean to push you over and onto that downward slide, there... Heh, heh, heh. ;-)
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
You've already received good suggestions. I have owned the large Lie Nielson for several years and have found many uses for it and use it often. Raising fielded panels is where it last came in handy (a use not found in Chris Gochnour's article). However, as previously noted in another post cleaning dadoes might be a bit of a stretch IMO.
However in all my uses I have found no complaints with the large LN except one, and it is only a minor one. On certain occasions I wish it were a bit smaller. For adjusting shoulders and tenons on smaller doors and frames the large one can be a bit unwieldy for me (small hands). It still does the job of course. But that is why this coming Friday I'll be in Warren, Main getting the medium shoulder plane from LN.
Bob
Ananda,
Welcome to Knots. This is a great place. Not everyone agrees on anything but it's fun to get the variety of responses. The question of shoulder planes was the first thread I ever read on Knots. It keeps coming up.
What you are about to read is pure opinion. It contains no facts. It is not in the mainstream of what you have already gotten as answers. It is as far from the mainstream as you can get.
Woodworking is like love in that means different things to different people. We all do it for a variety of reasons, and sometimes they overlap with why others do it. Sometimes not. Whenever you ask the fun question of "which shoulder plane", there is a tendency for the "hand tool folks" to come out and play. Also the "Tool collectors". and the "Lovers of excellent hand tools". There is a great deal of overlap among these groups. I am not really a member of those groups, although my interest in hand tools is growing -- just because it's fun, not because I need them. I am primarily a power tool guy. My question to you is: Do you really "need" a shoulder plane, or are you merely in love with the idea of owning a shoulder plane? You only hinted at one possible use -- finishing up dados. Why do your dados need to be cleaned up? Is the blade on your table saw in need of sharpening? Can't you just run a chisel over any little imperfections in a dado? When you use a router, the dados are as near perfection as you can get.
So what about trimming tenons? Well, some folks use a shoulder plane for that. I use a tenoning jig that I made for my table saw. It does a great job. Whenever I feel the need to grab a handtool when I am making tenons, I grab my Stanley #71 router plane. My table saw does just fine without the Stanley #71, but what the heck. My router makes nice tenons and they are trimmable down to a gnat's eyebrow with almost perfection in smoothness.
So help me out? Why would anyone with a table saw and a router need a shoulder plane? I do use my chisels when making tenons and mortises, as well as to handcut dovetails, so I am not "anti hand tool". I own a hammer and some screwdrivers and measuring and layout tools, but so far, I have made a lot of things without a shoulder plane.
Would I like to have a nice Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley shoulder plane? You betcha! Why? Because it would be fun to try to see what it can and cant do, and because they are things of beauty, and because the Lie Nielsen doesn't ever lose more than about 10% of its value. They sell often on EBay for almost the cost of new!!! So I guess it's worth buying, because if you don't like it, you can sell it on EBay and only be out about $15 after five years. Can't beat that with a stick. Both the LN and the LV big shoulder planes are so beautiful that you could also use them as a centerpiece on the dining room table. Just put on candle stand on each side of it.
The real way to make an intelligent decision is to go to the shop of a friend who owns a shoulder plane and who will let you trim a few tenons and see what the thing can do. Reading other people's reviews just isn't as good as hands on experience, especially if those reviewers got money or a plane from the maker to do the review.
So do you need a SawStop? A nice 8" jointer? A bigger bandsaw? Have you seen the Dowelmax? How about a nice Adria saw? Better still, have Mike Wenzloff make a couple of saws for you. I have this long long list of things that I want. Why not get a rabbet plane if you want to clean up rabbets and dados? I saw a guy make some moulding a few weeks ago with a Stanley #55 plane. Wow. I want one of those. I told my wife it if for a weight loss program.
Hope you enjoyed my ramble. I hope it caused you to think. Then after you think, just buy a big shoulder plane anyway. They only cost about the same as five tanks of gas. They are things of beauty. They are objects of desire. You will have a fuller life and be a better person for owning one.
Whatever you do, have fun!
Let us know what your decision is.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You are Toyman after my own heart.
Why just make furniture when the making provides a fine excuse to Consume and Acquire? At least our Acquired Things can be used to good purpose, unlike the old stamps or pointy high heeled shoes that other obsessive horders go for.
I have a friend who collects defunct old weapons but has to hide them from his disapproving spouse. Where is the utility in that? No, no - we are Fully Justified in our Excessive Spending on tools, as the lovely tallboys and dining tables will testify.
(That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it).
Lataxe, a victim of Engineers and Toolsellers everywhere.
Lataxe,
Great to hear from you. Glad we are on similar wavelengths. I thought I was going to get flamed. Actually, although I would like to collect, I have some things to keep me in check. One is a workshop that is too small to hold much more.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A while back, when I had some money, I bought the L/N Large shoulder plane to replace my Stanley 93. Although it is a beautiful plane, I find it too large for most work so I continue to use the 93. I can use the 93 one-handed like a block plane, but the LN is definately a two-handed plane.
Dan
Hey Ananda,
Choosing any plane is a pretty subjective decision. There are so many factors, not the least of which is how does it fit your hand, and the type of work you do.
With that disclaimer out of the way, I'll say that I use an old Stanley #93. I initially chose that because although it's only 1/2" wide, I can used it nearly anywhere. It also has an adjustable throat, and in a pinch, you can take the toe piece off and use it like a chisel plane.
It does the job, however, I don't like the way it fits in my hand. The more I use it, the more I yearn for a more ergonomically, and asthetically, friendly tool. Lately, I've been looking at the Lie Nielsen 1/2" infill shoulder plane.
Tom
Just to clarify a couple things for all:<!----><!----><!---->
Cleaning out dadoes is probably the least of my concerns - I was asking for a confirmation that that would be all I was losing with a big plane (i.e., over 1" wide). <!----><!---->
My interest in a shoulder plane comes from more of a utilitarian perspective (and sure, it's combined with a sense of awe and beauty in quality made hand tools). I take a hybrid approach in my woodwork, integrating the use of hand and power tools. Often I have to work in my shop after hours, am pretty close to neighbors and cannot so much as flip the switch on the table saw, band saw, jointer, etc. That's where hand tools really work for me! <!----><!---->
I am not the most skilled woodworker out there, though am always improving. I like to cut things a hair or two or three fat and trim to fit. I'm not comfortable using my power tools as the primary jointmaking tools. Mainly use them to hog off the bulk. I have been cleaning up tenon shoulders and cheeks with my chisels, but have realized that there may be a better -more precise- way to clean up the end grain of the shoulders especially. It was for this reason that the shoulder plane came up strongly on the radar. <!----><!---->
So, throwing out the dado side of the discussion (sounds like a router plane and side rabbet planes are the way to go there)...I have felt, though not used the LNs and the Stanleys. I will not be spending any hard earned dough on the Stanley's. I am interested in the LV, but don't have a clue where I could go to put one in my hand! I prefer the feel of the big LN over the medium, but am a bit scared of it's size. And that's where I was when I posted. I do like the idea of moving away from size and starting with a tool that works well in my hand and on shaving tenon shoulders clean and straight and trimming tenon cheeks well (among other things). <!----><!---->Thanks to all and – keep it comin’ if you wish!AnandaSeattle, WA
Ananda
Some enjoy using heavy handtools, and some don't. There is the argument that heavy is fatiguing (this comes up with scrub planes all the time). My argument is that one does not use tools such as a shoulder plane all the time, certainly not long enough for it to become fatiguing. There is no doubt that a medium sized shoulder plane could do all you want of it. Certainly, the likes of the LV and LN 3/4" varieties would satisfy all but the most exacting perfectionist. Personally, I have come to appreciate the special extra that comes with a large and heavy shoulder plane, especially as I work with hard woods. As long as you have the strength to hold one (which is not much), the exra momentum they carry through a cut actually permits greater delicacy since you are not forcing it as much. I have an old craftsman-made 1- 1/4" wide infill that I reach for first (and I do have plenty of experience with some of the better 3/4" shoulder planes to know that they work well in their own right).
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Don't remember who said it, but would you agree that the 073 is 'two-handed' tool? - Ananda
Seattle, WA
Don't remember who said it, but would you agree that the 073 is 'two-handed' tool?
Hi Ananda
I would consider that all shoulder planes are to be used in a two-handed fashion - rear hand to aid registration, and front hand to steady and guide.
View Image
Ironically, it is the smaller and lighter shoulder planes, such as the Stanley #92 (since you are now considering 3/4" wide shoulder planes), that need more support to steady them through the cut. While a very sharp blade (does one use anything else?) makes an easier job in every situation, a heavier plane (such as my infill - I have no experience with the #073 and the LV Large) is easier to use one-handed as its heft enables it to be a better self-registerer.
I did not post this before in this thread but, since you are now looking at 3/4" shoulder planes, here is a review of the LV Medium: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/LVShoulder/index.asp I contrasted the HNT Gordon and Stanley with the LV, both reference shoulder planes for myself. I have not used the LN.
Regards from Perth
Derek
My own take is that I went with a medium. It does all I want and is lighter in weight and so I can use it more comfortably.
ANother one to consider is:
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/
I have one of his coffin planes and use it frequently. I actually picked it up from his shop and watched while he finished it and tested it. Prices are reasonable and he will custom make one to the width you want.
He also sells kits
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Edited 10/27/2006 1:10 pm ET by Ricks503
Ananda,
This has been a great thread. I have enjoyed it thoroughly. Thanks for starting it. Your second post helps explain your interest, when you said "My interest in a shoulder plane comes from more of a utilitarian perspective (and sure, it's combined with a sense of awe and beauty in quality made hand tools)."So let's expand the thinking that is going on here. if you like really nice planes, you should stay away from the cheap stuff like Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley. The place to go is to the shop of our own Philop Marcou. You can find his website at:http://www.marcouplanes.com/pMarcou.aspI don't think he makes a shoulder plane, but after you see the sheer beauty, strength, integrity and ingenuity of his other planes, you may just want to start collecting (and using) Philip's planes. I don't believe he lists prices for his planes. I read a review of one of his planes by Derek Cohen, and as I remember it, Derek said that it was in the $2000 category. Once you get into this mode, you will not be satisfied with the puny stuff (in comparison) that comes from LN and LV. Now we are talking serious planes. Very few of the cars that I have bought have cost less than Philip's planes, but then again, those cars are now pieces of junk, while Philip's planes remain as useable works of art. These are museum quality. Enjoy.
MelPS - I don't get a commission if Philip sells you a plane. :-)
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ananda,I found you a really nice shoulder plane. Please go to the website of Karl Holtey. It is at:http://www.holteyplanes.com/prices.htmIt was Philip Marcou's website that said Holtey is a good plane maker. I did a conversion to dollars, and it comes to just under $8,000, but I don't think that includes shipping.By the way if you want to contact Philip Marcou, his Knots name is "philip". Hope this helps. It's been fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I know your just having some fun with him, but all the poor guy asked was, should he buy the LN 073, which he is in love with (I missed that part in his original post), or something smaller like the 3/4" version?
Ananda,
Do you know you have a soulmate out there? You've probably seen this review http://www.inthewoodshop.org/reviews/ln73.shtml
My advice: since you admit to coveting the 073 how can you be happy with anything less? Go directly to the LN websight and place your order. Do it now. Don't read another post; don't even read the rest of this post. DO IT NOW! We'll wait..............................................
Your back. Good. How do you feel, you lucky dog. You are now the proud owner of one of the nicest hand planes on the planet. And the best part, you got it for under $8000.00:)
Happy woodworking,
-Chuck
Chuck,
I am sorry. I couldn't help myself. When someone asks a question, the normal way to answer is to give them information which cuts down the number of alternatives, hopefully to one.Yup. that's the usual way. But that way takes the responsibility away from the question-asker, and puts it on the question-answerer, who isn't taking any risk. I like to take the other approach, and open the range of options, AND get the asker to consider what criteria are best for making this decision. I did this in an earlier answer to Ananda. But I could see that Ananda really is interested in the "aura" of great tools, more than in wanting something to solve specific problems. I gave Ananda other ways of solving those problems with existing tools.So given Ananda's interest in owning a wonderful tool, I thought I would help him think about what that means. Just how "wonderful" do you want? Do you want a Camry, a Lexus, a Ferrari???? He was thinking Lexus, so I brought up Ferrari -- Not because I want him to buy the Ferrari, but because I want him to think about the value of the way he is leaning. Just how much is he willing to pay for having a wonderful tool. $250, $2000, $8000. If you are Microsoft's Bill Gates, the only answer is to buy five of the $8000 Holtey's!Chuck, your comment gets into the philosophy of giving advice. Some people give advice so that the other person doesn't have to do as much thinking. My approach to giving advice is to cause the person to think even harder than they planned to. Like Woerner Erhard, I believe that if you dont take responsibility for your own life, then someone else will. I want the person asking the quesion to take the responsibility, not me. I provide "value added" by helping them see alternatives and by helping them to put their own values on the alternatives. I try to make this "value added" approach go down smoother through the use of humor and of pushing ideas beyond their intended limits. Put simply: Give a person a fish, and you feed them for a day. Teach them to fish, and you feed them for a lifetime.I think it is silly for someone to ask: what make and model of router should I buy, and then for someone on Knots to answer with a specific make and model. My approach is to provide information on what is available, and to push the person to get much more specific about their requirements, and then to get them to take responsibility for making their own decision. Put another way - if you ask me for advice on which washer and dryer to buy, I would respond by asking you how far you live from a laundromat. My goal would be to help you free your mind from preconceived answers, and search a wider variety of possibilities, and to question your values. Hope you enjoyed that. Heck, I'd be satisfied if you were still awake after reading it. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Save yourself some money, since you live in Seattle go to Hardwicks on 42nd & Roosevelt in the u district they have LN's for less than the website & no shipping to boot, lots of other great new & used woodworking tools. they have been there for 60 plus years buying & selling used & new woodworking tools
I am a Hardwick's regular, grew up a couple blocks away from it -great shop- no 073 though. Prices to beat em all though on the LNs for sure!
- Ananda
Seattle, WA
Edited 10/27/2006 9:42 pm by Ananda
Mel,
No apologies necessary. Your response was well said and well written and I fully agree with your "Philosophy on giving advice", but Mel, I'm not buying it. Do you know what I think? I think you are trying to live vicariously through Ananda. You actually want Ananda to buy that Holtey shoulder plane so you will then know someone who owns one. The truth is, that's the plane that you covet isn't it Mel.
Hey who could blame you? That brass, dovetailed, Spiers-style job is drop dead gorgeous! Anyone who appreciates hand tools would love to own one. The fact is Mel, with all the great things you have built in your shop over the years, you deserve one.
Mel, here is my advice to you: Don't read anymore posts; don't even finish reading this one. Go directly to Holtey's websight and place your order. Here's the link http://www.holteyplanes.com/ . DO IT NOW, MEL! You know you want that plane.
We'll wait for you....................................................................
:-)
-Chuck
Chuck,
Dang it. You have me figured out.
Mel
PS - Until a few weeks ago, when I read a review by Derek Cohen, I didn't know that Philip Marcou made planes. Until today, when I read Marcou's website, I had never heard of Holtey. Today I studied both of their websites, and there is drool all over my desk. If I could own one of those planes, I would put it on an altar and have lighted candles in front of it. I am sure they have healing properties. Heck, I have only seen photos, and I feel better already.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Y'all are too funny! - Ananda
Seattle, WA
Mel and all,
I'm more concerned with utility than the beauty of the plane. Heck, I think the LV is pretty ugly, but am considering it, because it seems to be a possible match re: size and use...the Camry is fine, thanks.
- Ananda
Seattle, WA
Chuck,
Thanks for the link to the review. Hadn't seen it. Must have been written before LN produced the medium 3/4" plane...no mention to it, just the infill. And, I'm really starting to waver here folks. Thinking more about the LN or LV 3/4"ers...
- Ananda
Seattle, WA
Mel,
You are having too much fun! What do you think I'm made of? - Ananda
Seattle, WA
Ananda,
You are right. I was having fun, and I hope that you were too. I learned a lot, and I hope you did too. I actually did some new research on the subject of shoulder planes and passed that on to you. We both profited from that. Ain't that great?If you have the money to buy the LN shoulder plane, the decision to buy it or not is a "no brainer". As I said in a previous message, you can get almost all of you money back in the future if you ever decide to sell it. So if you have the money, go for it. At a minimum, you will learn what it can and cannot do, and you'll have a bunch of fun before you sell it and get almost all of your money back. At best, you will love it, learn to use it proficiently, work it into your repertoire of skills, and be a more capable and prolific woodworker because of it. Whatever you do, enjoy it! and keep coming back to Knots.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The thing about all of this (often very good) free advice is that it does not have to be taken... On which note I'll just relate my shoulder plane experiences.I have the smallest Stanley bullnose plane and used it for years to sneak up on a good fit with tenons and similar joints, but I found I had to work carefully and tinker the corners with a paring chisel a good bit. Then I bought the (now) middle sized Lee Valley/Veritas shoulder plane. Was that ever a great decision. It hands well, the A2 tool steel bit holds its edge even in teak, and re-tuning after sharpening is a snap because of the set screws in the side of the body and the finely machined adjustment mechanism. I love it so much that I have been tempted to buy the larger model as well, but I can't think how it would add anything to what I already have.Happy hunting.
Thanks for your input...I've pretty much settled on going for the medium LV. Your comment are appreciated.
- Ananda
Seattle, WA
I have the medium LN shoulder plane and the small infill as well. Neither has let me down, but the cost of that little plane still puzzles me. Maybe, because it was a bit of a frivilous purchase for me, I feel a bit guilty. If any of the readers don't have a good shoulder plane, don't hesitate to get one. The LN medium covers my needs, but one with a removeable forepart to convert to a bullnose plane would be a nifty choice too.
handrubbed,
your post brought up the fact that I have a bullnose that I've been finding myself using to true up tenons and lap joints. Another "aha" came from that and I realized, the job would be so much easier with more surface up front of the plane. So between using chisels to true up shoulders and a bullnose or chisel to true up cheeks, I came to find myself in the predicament I'm in. Which shoulder plane as a first? Again, I'm gravitating away from the biggun' (maybe as a second shoulder plane?) and like the idea of the 3/4" options.
- Ananda
Seattle, WA
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