Any tricks, tips, or hints of how to facilitate the fitting of a dovetail corner joint? I can cut pretty close to the line, but always have a hard time fitting. Fitting takes a long time and in the end, the fit still isn’t what I am looking for.
Edit: I think that what I’m asking is: How do I know where to trim? Yes, it sounds like a simple question, but I’ve yet to figure it out. Of course, it’s easier with a 4″ tall jewelery box than a 18″ tall chest.
Chris @ www.flairwoodworks.com
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
– Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
Edited 8/3/2009 11:58 pm by flairwoodworks
Replies
If I understand your question, run a thin saw blade down through the joint. I think that will help
I have some thin-kerfed Japanese saws. I have heard of this, but won't it make an unacceptably loose joint? I realize that unacceptable is a debatable issue though.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I am probably not descrbing it well, but it will actually tighten the joint. We are talking about a corner joint with 45 degree angles right? Or did I misunderstand the question?
I am dealing with a box with four 90 degree corners.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
My general answer is to cut the tails/pare them exactly to the (thin) line, same with the sockets. Each tail has a small bevel on its two sides,quickly done with a chisel. Try the joint and if it goes in about half way and if it seems too tight separate the pieces and you should see by holding up to the light where the tight areas are-the area will be shiny/smoothed/ appearing different to where there has not been tight contact.Then pare the tight spots-I prefer to pare the sockets. Then try it again until it goes all the way home. The bevels help when there is need to separate the pieces and also help spread the glue.
But: if you cut and or pare exactly to a very thin line or knife cut they should go in tight enough first time, and you have more leeway with softer woods.
Philip,I figured out the bevel trick, though it hasn't helped me so far. The material I'm working on does make layout a little tricky (voids and uneven surfaces) so I've been trying to layout close and trim to fit. But I won't make excuses. I will find a way!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
What is the mysterious material?
But you said you can cut "pretty close to the line" and the fit is still not what you want. THEREFORE your idea of "close to the line " is not good and or your marking out is out. (great choice of words).Philip Marcou
Philip,I am currently using Pacific Yew, one of the hardest coniferous trees out there. Not a whole lot of give to this wood!I think that Rob has my answer on "pretty close to the line". It's not that I'm not good enough at sawing (though this time, I really focused and did better than I usually do); I think that my problem is knowing where to saw. I have been saving the pencil line. I think that I need to split it instead.Speaking of laying out, another box I am working on has four sides, neither of whom have any straight lines, save for the top and bottom edge (long grain). The rest of the boards comprise of compound curves. Is it realistic to lay out dovetails in this material? Should I even try? Or should I stick with a simpler joint?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
One point to think through, Chris, is the effect of the marking instrument on both the cut lines and the resulting fit. A pencil will always have a radius at the tip, so the line will be slightly away from the guide surface, even if held at an angle to that surface. Similarly, a utility knife blade, sharpened to the center, will be outside the guide surface by about half the thickness of the blade. In contrast, a Japanese-style marking knife is sharpened to the reference-surface side of the blade. As a result, the mark is exactly in line with the guide surface, and, thus, far more accurate. At the micro level, the mark has one vertical side, and one slightly-angled side. The Zen with saw cuts is to remove the vertical side of the mark, but no more.One trick is to be sure that all of the boards are precisely the same width, and even then to consistently use either the top or bottom edge as the reference surface from which to measure and mark. This would be particularly useful in your situation with the irregular edges.The first set of cuts (tails or pins, depending on which you prefer to do first) is less critical, of course, since they will be used to mark the ends of the adjoining boards. When fitting, I keep the chosen reference edges on a flat surface to assess which pins need to be trimmed a bit/skoash/smidgeon.
Ralph,You are right about the slight offset by the marking tool used. I have a hard time using a spear-pointed knife referenceing off a wood surface - the knife often seems to dig into the wood it registers off. Perhaps I need a longer bladed knife.Thanks for the help, in what must be the first serious discussion between the two of us.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
The spearpoint knives are handy in that they have both left and right in one knife, but the blades are pretty narrow and more difficult to control. The Japanese knives have wider blades, which makes keeping them flat against the guide surface easier.It's possible that the back of your spearpoint isn't as flat as it should be, too.
Chris,
You could try a ball point pen instead of a marking knife. I use a Parker fine point black, but just the actual infill and not the complete pen. It gives a fine line with virtually no offset from the reference and is easy to see, and will do for all but the thinnest of doves. An architectural propelling pencil can also be good-it is different to the normal propelling pencil in that the leads are tough, and they come in .5mm or a bit less but I like the .5mm. Both are easy to remove if you make a mark up-not so with a marking knife line, and both will make a line of consistent thickness so it is easy to gauge how much of the line to leave- which varies with wood type as already pointed out.
Tarah tarah....I am advocating simplicity in tool choice, eschewing the use of fancy items such as spear pointed marking knives in fact- I am off now before I am accused of defecting to the Taliban.Philip Marcou
PhilipInteresting idea - a fine-point ball point pen. I have been using a 0.5mm mechanical pencil (the same as a propelling pencil?) so far in this particular piece (13" tall chest). I have already realized the consistency of the line and quite like it. I don't mean to demean myself, but for most of my work (save for joinery layout), I find myself reaching for a carpenter's pencil. In general work, sometimes accuracy isn't all that important. Moreover, I rely on the scales on my tools, like my TS rip fence to be more accurate.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I am currently making a twelve drawer apothecary of Chris Gochnours design. I decided to tackle dovetailing of all the drawers. The drawer fronts are cherry and sides and back are poplar. After cutting all pieces to size except fronts and back, I layout the tails using a fine point pen. Cutting to the line and minimal corner clean up after chopping, I am ready to transfer the pin layout on the front and back. I chose to have snug fitting drawers, so I cut about 3/8" off the face of the drawers and do through dovetails and then glue the front back on. Looks just like half-blind dovetails. After planing the front and back to snuggly fit the opening, I finish the layout. I scribe my marks for the pins with a Swiss army knife, works great. Cut to the line, chop and pare corners for square and ready for glue. No fitting just glue, hammer and block of wood. Voila, dovetails. About 2 hours from initial layout to glue up. Thats four dovetails per corner. I did not think that I could cut dovetails, but I invested in a good class with Rob Cosman and I learned the how to of dovetailing. Oh yeah and I have only been cutting dovetails for a month and a half.
Tim
The spearpoint knives are handy in that they have both left and right in one knife, but the blades are pretty narrow and more difficult to control. The Japanese knives have wider blades, which makes keeping them flat against the guide surface easier.
Hi Ralph
I cannot speak for the Blue Spruce, Chester Toolworks or Czech Edge marking knives, but the blades on mine have a little flex. This allows the blade to hug the sidewall of the dovetail, keeping them flat and minimizing any deviation. The blades fit within the kerf of a LN dovetail saw.
With a blade that scores a very fine kerf, I saw as close to the line as I can get.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Well, I got back to work on the first corner yesterday, and when I got to the shop, I could have sworn that the joint was better than I had left it. Those workshop gremlins! Anyways, I finished fitting the joint without much ado, then turned my attention to the second corner. The joint was laid out with a 0.5mm mechanical pencil, and I carefully sawed the line away, cleared the waste, and excitedly pressed the two parts together. With a little light mallet-work, the tail board sunk halfway into the pin board. 10 minutes and two test fits later, I had a closed joint. And a tight joint, at that.So what did I do differntly? I sawed away the line. Before, I was of the mindset that I wanted to make the joint too tight so that I could (painstakingly) trim and test the joint over and over to get the perfect fit rather than risk cutting the joint too loose right off the bat. I may get heat over this, but I believe that it isn't crucial where your layout marks are, so long as they are parallel to the cut and of a consistent distance away. Yes they should be close, but they need not be right on the cut line. It is all about where you cut. If you know that your layout lines are, say 1/16" off the cut line, position your saw that 1/16" into the cut from the lines. Just be consistent.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Derek
what do you make the blades for your marking knife from?
thanks
Jeff
Hi Jeff
I use HSS jigsaw blades.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I have been saving the pencil line.. Forget the pencil and use a scribing knife!
Chris,
I strive to have the dovetails go together without any fitting, in fact I prefer to not drive the joint together until the glue up, so many times they are never fitted dry. The key is accurate scribing and then cutting to those scribed lines. When joining a hardwood to a hardwood, I place the saw so it cuts the scribe line in half. At first I thought this would be impossible, since it requires working to an extremely tight tolerance, but with a well tuned saw it is actually pretty easy (excellent eyesight is very important, and mine has changed for the worse and it has slowed me down). On dovetails where you have a soft wood joining a hardwood, or two softwoods, I leave the scribe line (in the softwood), since they can compress. After a short time, you will get accustomed to how much of the scribe line to leave, but it is a difficult thing to describe; only your eye and experience can say.
One can make super looking half blind dovetails, in a hurry, using only a minimum of layout/scribe lines, but through dovetails in thick material, such as those on a blanket chest require more layout lines and careful cutting.
I once read an article in American Woodworker about a man who lost most of his fingers and used a hacksaw to saw a fair distance away from the line and then would chisel to the line. It worked for him, but I quickly found that for me the way to a successful fit was accurate sawing; it seemed quite difficult to pare accurately with a chisel.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,I, too, always hope to get my dovetails to go together without fitting. However, I never expect that. As I outlined in my previous post to Philip, I think that you have solved my problem as to why I have to fit in that I am saving the line whereas I should be splitting it. I still have three corners to go cut, and I am hopeful that they will be better! I think that my paring skills are quite good, but I'd still rather be done and on to the next task than fiddling around trying to get the joint to fit.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Attached is a macro shot, showing more clearly what I was saying.
I cut my tails first using a pencil to lay them out, then using the tail piece, the pins are scribed with a thin knife. What the photo shows is that scribe line and the kerf of the dovetail saw, which in this case is a $9.95 Stanley. The kerf to the left is what I shoot for when working with a soft wood; actually it is moved over about 1/3 more into the waste than I would saw, but when sawn as I would, the photo wouldn't capture it (I used basswood and it is kind of stringy). The kerf on the right is for working in a hardwood.
Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,Good macro. The shot tells the whole story.Boiler
Rob,Excellent pictoral. Thank you.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Flairwoodworks,You might want to consider a package deal. My marking knife matches the LN saw blade nicely. I can just lay the saw right in the kerf and make a perpendicular stroke. My knife is something like a carpet cutter style only it's about one inch long and 3/4" wide...looks like a 5-10 cent store item.However, regardless of how wonderful those two tools work together, if only works on 19 of the 20 dovetails. I almost always have one dovetail out of 20 that requires repairs.
A couple of eyesight related tips come to mind. First, is that more light is better. Ideally think of an operating room light.
The other is a very simple tip. After laying out with a knive, lightly run a sharp pencil in that cut, and then, using an art gum type eraser, erase all of the lead on the surface. Makes the cuts stand out, but doesn't widen them. Courtesy of Maurice Fraser who taught at the Craft Student League in Manhattan.
Chris,
Very interesting question.
Very interesting answers.
As always, I have a different take on the subject.
The answer comes from close to God himself.
Actually it comes from Rob Cosman.
I trust a man who has to feed twelve mouths!
You know Rob, I believe you have less faith in him than I do.
When Rob told me the answer to how to cut dovetails right the first time, I saw a bright light in the background, and I heard heavenly music. I knew I had come upon the TRUTH.
Rob said that the key to getting your dovetails right the first time every time is to get up early every morning and make a dovetail joint. If you stick it out for a year, you will hear the angels sing when you put when you put your backsaw to the scribe line.
The answer lies not in the knife. Forget the knife. Rob uses a cheap knife. Forget the saw, even a bow saw will work. We know that from Tage.
Forget about mirrors and other tricks such as magnets to hold your saw.
Remember when the man asked, "Do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?
" The person responded, "Sure I do, practice, practice, practice."
The answer is pretty much the same to all woodworking questions. Forget the tools and the gimmicks. The answer lies in SKILL, which comes from massive practice.
Remember when Frank Klausz got upset when someone wanted to learn woodworking in a week when it took him decades.
Of course, there is another way to learn dovetailing which doesn't take a year of practice. Just write to Fine Woodworking, and tell them that you just can't learn to make dovetails. As they have done previously with others, they will fly you to their workshop, bring in an epert, and within one day, you will be an expert.
Actually I like the first approach better. Skill skill skill from practice practice practice.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,My "faith" in Rob is growing, though I don't think I'll ever see him the way you do!Rob's dovetail drill sounds like (Rogowski's?) 5-minute dovetail warm-up exercise. Maybe someone can confirm or correct whether it was Rogowski or someone else. I haven't heard the angels sing when I drop my saw on the scribe line, but I do hear myself screaming when I drop my chisel on the concrete floor. Now, I can attest that cutting a good-fitting dovetail joint does make you feel good. That feeling probably fades with time, but it's a darn good feeling!Practice, practice, practice. Then practice some more. As I said in my last post, it's not how you mark it, it's how consistently you mark the joint. It's not the tools. It's the technique and consistency at which you work that counts.You and I should write a book on throwing all the other books out the window.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
If you want to become a professional woodworker, I think you have to practice all of the component skills until they become second nature -- like riding a bicycle. You should approach the making of drawers like Frank Klauscz does -- not much romance there - just fast and good. It is like a pilot flying a plane -- he is constantly making adjustments, and much of the time he doesn't even realize it. It is like a guitarist tuning his guitar as he plays it -- so smoothly that you don't even notice it. Rob Millard gave the right answer - cut through the middle of the knife line when using hardwood. WHAT HE DIDN"T SAY WAS: How to be able to do that. He mentioned having good eyes. But he just assumed that you have the skills. If I were him, I would have included an underlined statement on GETTING THE SKILLS. Just cut a drawer a day for a year, and you will be able to split the line in the dark in the middle of a windstorm while taking orders for a $30,000 conference table. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You and roc make similar points. While, "This is how we have always done it," gets a a bad rap from those preaching the benefits of change and progress, the experience that comes from having done an operation over and over the same way does have a certain value. If you've always laid out your dovetails with a dull pencil, and have learned to compensate for that and it works for you, that may well be the best way of cutting dovetails--for you. Others may not have the same success, but, so what? As my buddy Jim says, "The Russians have a word for that-- tough ####!"
Best,
Ray
Ray,
The nice thing about getting old is that you forget. So every idea you see is fresh! Have we ever covered dovetails before? What about sharpening? How about mortise and tenon? I can't wait to discuss flat versus round toothpicks for furniture repair. This stuff is always more exciting if you can't remember that you have discussed it before. Getting old has some real benefits. Have we ever discussed secondary bevels and back bevels? What about BU vs BD bench planes? There are so many things to look forward to. Have fun.
MelPS All seriousness aside, I really believe that the answer to almost all questions on Knots is not "I need a newer and more expensive tool." but "Practice, Practice, Practice." Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
"All seriousness aside, I really believe that the answer to almost all questions on Knots is not "I need a newer and more expensive tool." but "Practice, Practice, Practice"
Heretical talk like that will get you banned from this forum, and fired from your part time job, too.
Better watch it,
Ray
Mel,All seriousness aside, I really believe that the answer to almost all questions on Knots is not "I need a newer and more expensive tool." but "Practice, Practice, Practice."
You really should just use this as your signature.
On this note... I can only think of one tool that actually improved the quality of my work. A LN saw. Looking back it was because it was the first saw I'd owned that was filed and set properly for the task at hand.
Buster,
Good to hear from you.
I have an LN dovetail saw. Love it. LN does a very very good job.
I still need to get a tenon saw from them. Actually a rip and a crosscut. Do you have any recommendations on which one?I don't really need the saws, but life will be a bit more fun with them, and if I don't like em, I can sell them on EBay for about what I paid for them. I like the concept of "zero life-cycle cost". I don't buy many new tools, but in my move toward hand tools, there are a few I "need". After my move is complete, I won't need to buy a dust collection system. Yuk yuk yuk. So I feel like buying a few hand saws will reduce the overall cost of my woodworking. Dontcha just love it the way people can rationalize. :-)Mel (who doesn't take himself too seriously)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Actually a rip and a crosscut. Do you have any recommendations on which one?"Nope... I'm really not one to do a lot of research on a tool before I buy. Like you I belive certain brands of tools hold their value, so I just stick with them. Actually I rarely buy them myself (with the exception of really good specials). I more of a birthday, christmas, fathers day tool receiver... I did buy myself two router bits this weekend...
Mel,I must have missed "an announcement" when I was out of the country (Australia & New Zealand). When, why and where-to are you moving? It sounded like you were in heaven at your present location.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Frosty,
Just read your message. "When, why and where-to are you moving? "I am at a loss. I have no idea what caused you to think that. I don't have any plans to move. I love it right here, as you surmised. I am jealous of your trip to Australia and New Zealand. I went to Australia once for a week and absolutely loved it. I hope to go to New Zealand someday. Welcome back. Please visit the thread I started yesterday on "The final woodworking question". I am sure you are the one who knows the answer. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I don't buy many new tools, but in my move toward hand tools, there are a few I "need". After my move is complete,"I see now that you meant your "move" to hand tools. I must drink more coffee before I make comments or ask questions here. Or - perhaps Scotch would be a preferable lubricant.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Dusty,
I need to learn to write better.
Sorry about that,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have a LN dovetail saw (actually an Independence) (rip teeth) and the Wenzloff carcass saw (crosscut).
I really like both- if you need a crosscut you would not go wrong with the Wenzloff saws (I also have a couple of others, but I digress)
Jeff
Jeff,
I have a part time job at Woodcraft which doesn't pay much, but offers an excellent discount. Unfortunately Woodcraft doesn't sell Mike's saws. If they did, that is what I'd buy.
Thanks,
MelPS do you know what lives Mike had before he became a sawmaker? You should ask him. He has led a life so exciting that it would make James Bond jealous.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Neiner neiner! We sell Mike's saws! You should come work with me! But we'd probably never get any work done then...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Mel,
I bought the 12" size filed for a rip cut. I use it for making both rip and crosscuts, when making tenons, and it has worked well for me.
Rob Millard
Rob,
I really appreciate that. Besides the social networking, the big benefit of Knots is when you get an answer from someone that is based on experience. If the 12" tenon saw, filed rip, works for you, it will certainly work for me.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>cut pins and tails so they fit with out much paring<
I can't cut 'em that way too often but I would recommend watching Frank Klausz's dvd Dovetail a Drawer. I just searched on wood craft and Highland but did not find it. Out of production ?
Hey good old amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Dovetail-Drawer-Frank-Klausz/dp/1561587044/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvdqid=1249622628&sr=1-1
You many not learn how from the vid but you will see it is possible to do.
Interesting he uses a regular old pencil to lay out the tails from the pins. No knife ! ! ! then he cuts it and puts glue on them and knocks them together. No test for fit ! ! !
Very impressive.
Jim Kingshot does it in his vids too.
I want to seem him do sugar maple to sugar maple this way.
When you were talking pencils I was going to point out that the others were talking scribing with a sharp metal knife or scriber and that the single bevel knife was the only way to go.
Since someone mentioned that, I am arguing the other side of the coin; ah who needs knives. Klause uses a regular old pencil.
: )
One tip is when you have a long joint part way together if you tap it with a metal hammer you will hear it ting a bit when you tap the tail that is not fitting down between the pins.
Another interesting phenomenon that I have experienced over and over is often I learn something when I am under pressure enough to be a bit cavalier and a bit pissed and be working a bit wildly. If that makes any sense. You may need to take some joints to the max by glueing them and pounding them together. Some may crack and some may mush together because of the wet glue acting as a lubricant and wood softener. I think this is how Frank Klausz gets away with it.
That and a hell of a lot of skill and experience.
Which I don't posses but love to preach to you about from the couch.
Let us know what works.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 8/7/2009 1:30 am by roc
Edited 8/7/2009 1:32 am by roc
Roc,Well, I finished cutting the four joints without too much struggle and I achieved a good fit too. Today, I dry fit the chest and everything went together like it's supposed to. I glued up a wide enough board for the bottom tonight, and I should be able to glue the chest up in the next couple days. I don't forsee any problems in the glue-up, but there's no telling for sure. I will make "toothed" cauls to apply pressure to all the tails.I have seen Klausz's video. It's very inspiring and amazing to watch. I didn't remember that he uses a pencil, but now that you mention it, I do recall that. I am obviously not yet at the point where I can knock them together without a test fit - I usually get them together on the third try.I haven't seen Kingshott's dovetailing video yet. What type of wood is normally used in these examples? Poplar?When seeing if I can drive the joint home, I use a urethane carver's mallet (about 14oz). When the joint won't close any more, it bounces off the wood - you can feel the difference. I'd be afraid about denting the wood if I were to use a metal-faced hammer.When I get frantic and panicky (not often anymore), I make a lot of decisions I later regret. And I learn from them. Y'know, since I've switched to (liquid) hide glue, my glue-ups have been much more placid. I think that it's the reversible factor if something goes wrong. Today, I accidently glued two parts together backwards with Titebond Liquid Hide Glue. I realized this a few hours later and broke the joint apart, expecting the freshly-glued joint to give easily. I put one piece in my vise and gave the other part a number of good whacks with my palm, each harder than the last as it wasn't giving. Finally, I broke the two pieces apart, and to my surprise, part of the break was adjacent to the glue-line. So a rubbed liquid hide glue joint left to cure for less than three hours can reach a strength greater than wood! Amazing!What did I do during those three hours? I ate dinner and went out and bought a variable-temperature water kettle so I can make hot hide glue.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris ,>Kingshott's dovetailing video . . . What type of wood is normally used in these examples? Poplar?<Kingshott uses a walnut drawer front and oak secondary wood ! ! !Klausz is using Eastern White pine for front and side because he puts an applied drawer front over the through dovetailed drawer front.>Metal hammer and dents<Yes that was my reaction but on hard wood using a crowned face Japanese style hammer it just tings and doesn't dent the wood. On say walnut I have seen no dents.> about practice and experience and practicing every day making dovetails<In the Frank Klausz video he says " The more you do it, how better you getting at "I enjoy the way he speaks english. If I could speak a second language half as well I would be doing all right.
rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I use the Leigh D4 jig and that gets me in the ballpark but having said that I learned that for through dovetails it is critical to have the wood as EXACTLY SQUARE as you can humanly get it. Using a marking knife with a super sharp thin edge is a must. I use a magnifying glass to line up my square when marking out. Take your time marking out because it makes a huge difference. Dry fit every time and carefully look at every joint with a magnifying glass. You can then really see things you normally wouldn't. When you dry fit, your corners should be absolutely flush of course.
I think that best thing though is to exactly four square your wood to exacting standards. You can make a good marking knife out of an old banged up chisel. Make the back exactly flat with an oilstone or similar stone and grind it to a comfortable skewed edge for your hand. This is what I did. Keep it sharp. Draw the flat edge along your square and check with a magnifying glass. Use a .5mm or .3mm pencil for your lines if you use a pencil. Thinner is better.
If I had to hand saw I would still use a magnifying glass to look at the dry fit, mark the areas that need paring and use a super sharp chisel to pare sparingly. Very fine cuts. Take your time.
After reading all the responses I thought I'd add an obvious comment. You can easily fill any gaps with veneer (you thought I was going to say saw dust and glue, heavens no). If you don't have veneer just take one of the chips you just chiseled out bring it to the belt sander,and taper it so that the narrow end fits in the gap, add glue and hammer it home. You should end up with some of it sticking out of the gap. After the glue dries just sand flush. You now have a perfectly cut dovetail. I've been doing this for 35 years and stopped worrying about gaps long ago. This method works for all gaps pretty much any where in you project. Just make sure that the grain orientation of your chip matches the gap.
That brings up an excellent question: Should we strive for perfection or should we be glad that we know how to make it (appear) perfect?I have heard of the veneer trick, but have never tried the idea. My patches never work out very well - they never blend in like they do in the books! I think that the trouble I have is the varying colours and wild grain patterns and my exceedingly high tolerances. It doesn't help that I'm colour blind.Thanks for the post.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You can strive for perfection but you best know how to fix mistakes. On any given drawer side theres going to be what? six, eight dovetails? Are you going to keep throwing them away until they are perfect? You'll never finish building anything. Worse yet someday you will stop even trying out of frustration. No, learn to minimize and fix your mistakes. Btw you did not hear me say that you should be sloppy in your repairs, no. They must be done with care. But if done right they will be invisible.BTW the color will be perfect if you use the same chip you just chiseled out of the wood. Try it. color blind or not you will see for yourself that if you orient the grain with care and fill the gap precisely you can make the gap invisible, not almost invisible, invisible.
YES! Even the best woodworker will need to make a repair. And it is impractical to remake every part needing a repair. One thing that amazes me is faux finishing. It's awe-inspiring. I know of a fellow who brought a piece of marble in to work. Only it wasn't marble - it was MDF. But from looking at it, you couldn't tell! Only by lifting the slab, would you realize that it was not real.In the latest issue of Woodwork, there was a picture of a dovetailed drawer with ONE dovetail. That was pretty amusing.You have pursuaded me to try some more fixes. Thanks. I have done some really good ones in the past.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
T Chisel has a video or two on making dovetails. What I found from watching was that my pins and tails weren't square. I ended up using a small flat plate (a cabinet scraper blade) held against the face of cut face of the pin or tail and a small square across the top to tell me how far out of square or plane I was.
Then it is a matter of shaving and paring the face, and yes it took time. But for the first time, the joints fit together well. And if they are a bit sloppy you can use that trick the guy at DoveTails.com has of wetting the ends of the pins and tails and hitting them with a ball peen hammer to flair the end grain into the gaps. Taking time to cut accurately and then carefully square the joints has produced joints that didn't need blows to fit or to finish.
And then stand back and say, who's going to notice the gap in a joint at the back (or front for that matter) of a drawer. Most people are too busy searching for something in the drawer, to pay attention to the detail we're obsessing about.
Good tricks - thanks for the ideas. The scraper trick is a simple way of checking coplanar and I use that trick a lot on other fitting problems, usually with a piece of wood. I'd never thought to transfer that idea to dovetails though. Wet, then whack, eh? I might give that a try some day."Most people are too busy searching for something in the drawer, to pay attention to the detail we're obsessing about."Excellent, excellent point. Today's woodworker (yes, I'm generalizing) seems to be trying to impress their peer woodworkers with details trivial to everyone else.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thanks,The spreading out of the pins is from an instruction booklet by Dale Horst at handcutdovetails.com He claims it is an old technique used by furniture builders when they made their living cutting these things. It works best if the pin or tail is proud of the surface. Otherwise the surface is dimpled, but the joint appears tight.It is a bit off topic, but I do wonder why Beckenvort, ((sp?) an incredible craftsmen would blind dovetail a sub-top in a shaker chest of drawers whose sides are secured from spreading just 4 inches below by very secure sliding dovetail attaching the drawer supports and then cover it up. Nobody is going to ever see it and structurally it is irrelevant. Why waste that much material and effort. Oh well.
Why dovetail the hidden top? Tradition?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Perhaps to impress some future archeologist if the chest ends up being preserved at the bottom of the Black Sea? ;-)
"Today's woodworker (yes, I'm generalizing) seems to be trying to impress their peer woodworkers with details trivial to everyone else."You noticed that, too, huh?;)
Hi Chris,
"Today's woodworker (yes, I'm generalizing) seems to be trying to impress their peer woodworkers with details trivial to everyone else."
Hmmm...Yes, but.
Isn't the devil, as they say, in the details? Aren't the details precisely what separates the good from the best?
I'm recalling a potential customer who said he'd gotten an estimate from anorther craftsman on a bed I'd priced to him. The other woodworker had told him he could "build the same bed" for significantly less. What's the difference, he wondered. After a little back and forth, we decided that, 1) I use 16/4 stock, my competitor glued up 8/4 stuff for the posts. 2) I use primary wood, also 16/4 for all the rails, his head and side rails were 8/4 poplar, the foot rail 8/4 primary wood. 3) my bolt covers were cast brass, his stamped, brass-plated steel. The difference, I pointed out, was that my competitor did not know the difference. I told my potential customer, that those details might, or might not, be worth the extra money, but that they added up to a significant amount. Further, that the level of craftsmanship ( those pesky details, again), might be reflected in the worker's choice of materials, and again, may or may not be significant to him as the buyer.
I didn't get the job.
Always, always, in pursuing a career as a self-employed craftsman, there is the pressure to do work that is good enough, vs better than expected.
There is a clockcase in my shop now, that is probably one of the finer examples of its type. What makes it finer than similar but lesser examples? Those details that a collector who just "wants a 'grandfather clock' for an empty spot in my hallway" will not notice. But for someone who is perceptive enough to see the differences in proportion, and has an appreciation for the extra molding, carving and inlay work that the builder lavished on his creation, the fact that he used an unusual choice of materials, and a creative way of finishing them-- those details will make this piece worth more to him, and on the open market.
If you haven't seen the two Sack books, "Fine points of Furniture" often called "Good Better, Best", they address just the differences in detail that make a masterpiece different from an also ran. I recommend them highly, even if you aren't into period antique furniture, they point up just what we're talking about here.
We aren't just working for ourselves, our peers, or even our customers. If we are building the best of work, not just schlock to pay the bills, we are working for folks we'll never meet, who will be enjoying (and critiquing) our work long after we are dead and gone.
Ray
Ray,Of course the devil is in the details. But which details? One thing that I have been struggling with is perception. Does a perfectly smooth, flat surface demand the greatest respect? Or does a lightly textured surface from a cambered iron deserve greater respect because of the extra little character, irregularity (or lack of refinement, depending on your perspective) and sign of hand craftsmanship.Maybe a good question to start with is, "What makes fine furniture 'fine'"? "Rustic" furniture isn't what I would would call fine. But it certainly has character. And it is often sturdy and well built, so it will last generations.Good story, and probably a tough choice for the customer.It's funny, just a couple days ago, I was looking at Fine Points of Furniture on Amazon. I've added it to my list."We aren't just working for ourselves, our peers, or even our customers. If we are building the best of work, not just schlock to pay the bills, we are working for folks we'll never meet, who will be enjoying (and critiquing) our work long after we are dead and gone."I like what you said there.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Your observation about rustic vs fine workmanship brings to mind some of David Pye's thoughts expressed in his "Nature and Art of Workmanship", wherein he posits that a rustic garden gate is no less workmanlike than a highly finished tabletop. He draws the distinction instead between rough (or coarse) workmanship and fine workmanship, where a highly finished, perfectly flat surfaced gate would look out of place in a natural setting (as in a garden). He has some thoughts about just the distinctions you draw between leaving subtle signs of handwork vs erasing all such signs.
I'd highly recommend you add his book to your list. Folks who rave about Krenov's musings as being earth shaking ought to read Pye.
Ray
Ray,I've got Pye's book and have read it once. The only thing I learned is that Pye's book is hard to comprehend. Perhaps after I read it twice or thrice, I will begin to understand more.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Perseverance, my boy! If it was easy, anyone could read it. I get more out of it everytime I read it thru.
Best,
Ray
Chris,
This has turned into a very interesting conversation about devils and details. I think Ray's comments really point out an interesting difference between a REAL EXPERT FINE WOODWORKER, like Ray, and a person who knows how to do joinery and wood finishing (A CARPENTER). Ray spends more time than you can imagine learning the subtle differences between similar pieces of furniture made in different parts of Virginia and in other localities. BUT he spends more than time at it. He has a passion for it. This is something that can't be taught, IMHO. You either have the passion for such knowledge, or you don't. There are plenty of folks who can make nice furniture from a plan, but couldn't tell the difference between a Chippendale chest made in the US in current century, and one made in England in the 1700s.At Penn State, I knew a linguist who could tell a person who was from Philadelphia, what part of the city that person grew up in. The more one studies something, the more subtle detail that One can perceive. Seeing and perceiving are two different things, as Sherlock Holmes used to point out to Watson. I think that woodworkers today spend TOO much time considering tools and joinery, and almost none on "Design". If one focuses on design as much as one focusses on Joinery, one starts to notice more subtle differences in furniture.SO WHAT ARE THE IMPORTANT POINTS TO LOOK AT WHEN LOOKING AT AN OLD PIECE OF FURNITURE?That is the $64,000 question. Henri Poincare once was asked what is the difference between an intelligent man and an ordinary man. Henri answered that when given a difficult problem, an intelligent man is much more likely to perceive which are the most important parameters of the situation. They will almost jump out at him. I believe Ray pointed out Sack's Good Better Best book. I once thought about cutting the pictures up on each page and seeing if I could put them back in the same order Sack did. I believe I could get a bunch of them as he did, but not all of them, but I don't think I could state why. I believe that Ray could give a detailed analysis of the why of the three pieces on each page. Thus the difference between Ray and I. He has both deep knowledge and deep skills. I am a hack. This is a VERY interesting topic for your book. Have fun. DON"T FORGET TO WRITE THE DARN BOOK. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That is the $64,000 question. Henri Poincare once was asked what is the difference between an intelligent man and an ordinary man.
Intelligent man greets his wife.. I have to work.. Us common men greet her with a cold beer!
>knew a linguist who could tell a person . . . what part of the city that person grew up in.<Was his name 'enry 'igans ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLIkD8wgFm8rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Mel,One of my weaknesses is that I am not all that familiar with other furniture from other makers. Repair work is not part of my repetoire and I think that it would frustrate me. But perhaps that's something you get over. While I acknowledge the different styles, I don't put much value in being able to recognize one century's work from anothers. I look at it all and put it in a melting pot and out comes a collaboration of all. Or something like that.Seeing and perceiving. Hmmm. I will have to think more on that one.Tools are certainly important in woodworking as is joinery, but you are right - they are only worth so much. Design is very, very important. You can have the best tools and cut the cleanest, accurate joints, but if your design stinks, all is for naught.Darn budget cuts! When did the million-dollar question become the $64,000 question? Ah, parameters. That sounds a bit like tolerances. Here's a question for you: What's the difference between a smart man and a wise man? A smart man will tell you how. A wise man will tell you why.There is so much to think (and thus write) about, I wonder if I will ever finish writing, or whether it will go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
"I wonder if I will ever finish writing, or whether it will go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and"
No, for the love of the lawd, please , not another one, here, on this forum.
But apart from that,don't worry too much about not being too familiar with other furniture form other makers-it comes with time and your own interest in woodworking, naturally. And you can read a few books.
Far better to concentrate on developing your own styles and designs if you have decided not to concentrate on reproductions.Philip Marcou
Thanks for saying that Philip. That is exactly what I have been telling myself. All in time...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
You are enjoying your journey into woodworking, and that is great. You are doing it your way, and that is great. No matter what approach we take, there are some inherent shackles involved. I wonder why, whenever someone wants to become an architect, they have to study all past and present schools of architecture. Does that make them a better architect? I don't know. Maybe it shackles their mind with past practices and keeps them from having new ideas? Or maybe it helps them see mistakes that others have made and thus frees them from making those errors.Everyone does it differently. I think of Ray, Rob and Richard a lot. I believe Ray and Rob have similar approaches but use different styles. Richard Jones is a modernist. There are design issues in Federal and Chippendale styles, and there are design issues in modern styles. I would guess that being knowledgeable in the work of others would be quite useful. Interesting question. More fodder for your book. Whatever you do, I believe you will do it longer if you are passionate about it, and you are. Stay passionate about your ideas.As I scan Knots, it is easy to see that there are some, notably Ray and Samson and Rob and Rich and you and Dusty and Sarge and and and.... who are almost always positive. Some others are quite negative quite often. That is a sure sign of unhappiness with oneself. People who lack joy, who have an overwhelming dark side, seem to lack the ability to be FREE. They are always worried about something or other which shouldn't be worried about. That reduces the flow of one's creative juices. Stay excited. Stay vibrant. Stay focussed. Always remember the words of the world's greatest philosopher, Frank Sinatra, who said "I did it my way."Have fun. Time to go to the shop. I am working on a set of drawers for my new Sjobergs workbench. WHAT A GREAT BENCH! Of course, compared to my Sears worktable of the past two decades, even the kitchen table would be a step up. More on that later. Even photos. I am excite about this.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,If I did not enjoy woodworking as much as I did, I probably would not be here.Regarding you architecture question, my only thought is the saying, "If we don't study the past, we are bound to repeat it." I myself do look at furniture whenever I get the chance, as I'm sure everyone else here does. We get down on our knees to see how the underside of the table top was finished. We pull the drawers out all the way to look at the back and inside of the cabinet. We examine the selection of hardware and how it was mounted. We critique everything. And hopefully we learn from our critiques. In my search to answer the question, "What is fine furniture?", I think that I will determine what fine furniture is not, then I'll be left with fine furniture.One saying that I don't like is, "It's all been done". Often it seems the case, but my inventive mind won't have any of it. Of course, things are being invented all the time, but so many things have already been invented. So why reinvent the wheel when you can copy it? That brings up another point. I don't like copying work. My work is a creative outlet for me, and without that opportunity to unleash my creativity stifles my imagination and leaves me uninspired. I have at least one commission that can testify to that. I am learning to say "no" to those jobs.One of the greatest strengths I feel I have is self confidence, and that unfortunately cannot be taught. Also, taking everything in a positive way. Every issue has two sides, and it's up to you to decide which side you look at. You determine your perspective. Yessiree, the grass is always greener on MY side! I think your Sjobergs bench would benefit from a patternmakers vise. I use all the features of mine so much - a lot more than I would have guessed!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
I really like pattern makers vises. Woodcraft sells one. I thought of making my own bench. Had I done that, I would have put one on. But the Sjobergs Elite 2000 comes with two LARGE vises, which rack very little. A reviewer at FWW commented on how nice those vises are. Now that I have tried them, I believe him. The dog holes are round, 1". Four iron dogs came with it. I will make a bunch of wooden ones of various designs. Glad you have a good deal of self confidence. Nothing like it. Send me some of your. :-)Heading back to the shop right now to try out a borrowed Kreg pocket hole jig. I want to see if helps me make better designs. Yuk yuk.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I still think that you would appreciate a patternmaker's vise. Remember you can always take it off and put it on the bench you build someday. For me, the 1" dogs would have probably been enough of a reason not to buy it - it won't accept the many 1" accessories available today. But to each his own."comes with two LARGE vises, which rack very little" - Too bad. I like racking vises because they can hold work without parallel surfaces. That is the third most used feature, after the swivel and quick release ( in that order) on my vise.If you like the Kreg jig, talk to your employer about dealer discounts. I got mine when I bought my K3. I use it on quick and dirty shop stuff. A word of caution: clamp the two mating boards together before driving a screw or else it will creep.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
pattern makers vises.. I have one and it is my most used these days.
The only problem I have with it is that it is at the same height as the bench and I would like it about chest high for upright standing while using it.. Hard to mount one that way... Thought of a separate small bench filled with cement or sand bags...
The pattern makers vise is nice if sitting on a tall bar stool but I would prefer to stand up when using it.
I would suggest that you get one. However, they can be next to impossible to mount on some benches.
WG,
Thanks for your thoughts on the pattern makers vice. No chance of me getting one of those for a while. I had my original woodworking table, which I made from plywood scraps and two by fours, for about seven years. Then I got a "Real" Sears Craftsman, thing that was called a workbench, but is only a table with storage on the bottom and no vices. I used that from the late 70s until last week. Now I have my new Sjobergs bench with two massive beautiful vices. The chances of me removing one of those vices and then carving into the top of this bench to install a patternmaker's vice is just about ZERO. I have been using the bench to make a cabinet for drawers that will fit between the four stretchers of the bench. Sjobergs sells a cabinet for my bench but I wanted to customize the drawers for my own needs. Besides it is a lot of fun.When it comes to tools (and a workbench is a tool), I am a simple man. I was able to make some nice furniture with nothing but a table and a bunch of clamps to hold things to the table. Now, with the Sjobergs bench, I have bench dogs and hold downs. Man, this is like living in a dream. Wish I had done this back in 1968.Have fun with your pattern maker's vice. I have a few carver's vices that I can attach to my bench for carving.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Will,>would like vise about chest high for upright standing while using it... Thought of a separate small bench filled with cement or sand bags...<I am with you on that. Here is what I came up with about twenty years ago for metal work; see pics.I used a piece of steam pipe, I think that is what it is, it used to be the second leg of my first real welding table. My Dad brought it home from a job for me and he was a steam fitter so it must be steam pipe. Right ? Hummm. Any way if you look close you can see the " 2 " on the leg. Each leg mount was a tweak different. I made it back in the seventies when I was a young teen. To drill holes for the bolts I just blew a hole through with the cutting torch ( you get the picture ) not real precise hole layout. Had to make it disassemblable so I could move it. I was just counting the months until I could get a shop of my own ! ! !Anyway where ever I live I put some concrete anchors in the floor and bolt this sucker down solid. To pull it up to move it out of the way takes a screw gun with a socket and a couple of seconds to spin the bolts out.If any of you make one of these I recommend much larger pipe; even with the triangular braces at the bottom I get a slight oscillation while hacksawing that I could do with out. Might be in the bottom plate. 1/4 "Make the bottom plate 3/8 " or heck half inch ! ! !The top is 3/8 " and seams good.The second pic is what I call a mini tig table but one can braze or torch or what not on it.The advantage of both of these is one can walk all the way around it while welding or filing etc.The mini tig table is hight adjustable. Not bolted down. Can throw something heavy on the base is good enough.Heck I even use it for holding up the in-feed side of a plank while setting up to resaw. My roller stand is no where near tall enough. The out feed is the table of my tall drill press with the head turned out of the way ( or the table turned into the way how ever you want to picture that )On the top of the vise pedestal I have many, many holes drilled to fit all sorts of vises and jigs over the years. Two bolts and the vise you see comes off and on goes a more articulated sheet metal style vise with big flat thin jaws that tilts etc.That vise that is on there now is the same vise I used as a six year old making extended forks for my sting ray. Next door was a very cool guy that was a member of "Satan's Irons " chopper club/gang. Totally respectable family man. A great guy. Wouldn't want to be on his bad side. His name was Rock too so couldn't have been better. Gave me rides down the street on his totally perfect show chopper while I held on to the peanut tank.Brrrraaaaaaaaaaaow . . . BrrraaapaBrrraaapaBrrraaapa ! ! ! ! Straight pipes and all. I wanted my bike to be just like his and with long forks made from electrical conduit and some playing cards in the spokes it was ! ! !Ohhh man . . . where am I ? ? ? Where was I ? ? ? Oh yah . . . the vise wasn't mounted to anything so was very awkward. I just jammed it here or there or put another pipe through bellow the jaws to get leverage for bending stuff. My dad wouldn't let me bolt it to his good work bench.It was nuts but I got inventive. Mostly just pissed me off.Anyway high vise . . . there you go . . .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 8/21/2009 12:53 am by roc
Roc
Thanks. I had similar but were bolted to the floor with lead anchors that always came loose! Use to work metal but not for about 15 years. My X Son-In-Law got all my metal working tools. We still talk on occasion.
Sting Ray.. I had 1964 1/2 Vett. All the factory goodies! Not the fuel injected one (375hp?). Some say there was no such thing as a 1964 1/2 but I am sure my Title stated that. Maybe because it was a special order at the time. Factory made to order for pickup at factory. I sure loved that car but had to sell it to feed the wife and first baby.
As I remember it was REALLY expensive... About $6,000.00. THAT WAS EXPENSIVE then!
327ci, 365hp Engine. Never should have opted for the 4:11 rear end for city driving in Chicago winters even with Positraction.
Edit: I forgot..
My X Son-In-Law had a long forked bike (I call a Lowrider style). His was a old modified Indian. Only long fork I ever road but I did NOT like it. Maybe my lack of experience, but I always felt I was going to flip the bike on it's side at any moment.
Edited 8/22/2009 1:44 am by WillGeorge
Regarding that Architectural history, we look at how other people do it so we can understand how others have solved a problem with a particular materials, technology and resources at a particular time. It gives you a reservoir of forms and solutions. The nice part about architecture is that you are allowed to copy, opps make reference and borrow from the past. Even old FL Wright. Look at Wright's Guggenheim and the entrance to the Vatican Museum. Same ramp. Same swirl at the newel post. Same skylight above. One is the way in and out of a museum. The other is the museum. Obviously Frank had made a trip to see the Sistine Chapel and the way in made an impression.The reason we study the past is to have more pieces we can put together in new ways. Some like Wright are amazing in their ability to translate and transform old forms. Others get trapped by them. What is interesting is how even in trying to copy something it changes, and that I think is a good thing in wood working as in buildings.
"It gives you a reservoir of forms and solutions"
Well said Severin, thanks for posting your thoughts.
Tom
Well stated. I agree.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>the difference between a smart man and a wise man? A smart man will tell you how. A wise man will tell you why.<Yes and it's been my observation your average man won't pay any attention to either one of 'em and just wonder off like a cat playing with a ball of lint and reinvent the wheel for himself. Sort of. Kind of lumpy and wobbly and crumbly but very INDEPENDENT like.>Federal and Chippendale and being knowledgeable in the work of others<In this book I recommend too oftenhttp://www.amazon.com/Nick-englers-woodworking-wisdom-Engler/dp/0762101792/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=booksqid=1250738020&sr=1-3 there is a nice concise section that compares various styles and time periods in furniture. Has ink drawings, photos and a time line. Helps get a quick general over view screwed into the old noggin.It won't help much with fitting dovetails though.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 8/19/2009 11:35 pm by roc
Mel,That "Design" stuff sounds pretty cool. Is there a router jig I can use for that?
Billy,
Now, that was funny.
Ray
Billy,
For real "design", I would suggest the Leigh dovetail jig. For even more advanced work, the Wood Rat. The best designs possible are made with the Festool Domino. Remember:
To err is human.
To anticipate is design.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks for reminding me that I'd been meaning to order that book. Got it coming now.
wherein he posits that a rustic garden gate is no less workmanlike than a highly finished tabletop......
Or a well made exterior door and frame, window sash or well executed crown molding install.
It is still woodworking but where does 'fine' go and come into the picture?
noun, adjective, adverb, verb or transitive verb? Fine is a wonderful word.
Arr matie! ..This Grog is fine!
When thinking of FINE Woodworking I wonder where the boundaries lie? I think a 'slippery slope' as in the following UTUBE video.
I for one love it and it applies to life as well as woodworking or even 'No Swimming Allowed' situations.. Not sure I like that children are used in the following bit of video but adult woodworkers would be perfect. ;>) Listen to the opening word really close!
http://aftergrogblog.blogs.com/agb/2009/08/the-swim-reaper.html
And this from a old mad that just loves
http://en.zappinternet.com/video/zocFsaLdaP/Shaun-The-Sheep-The-Bull
Forgive me.. I had a brain spaz....
What a mind and a very creative animator! THE BEST!
Edited 8/17/2009 6:13 am by WillGeorge
Will,
Thanks for that Shaun the Sheep- should be prescribed viewing .....Philip Marcou
Philip.. Thanks. I have a life outside of woodworking..
I just love Shawn because of the wonderful (takes many, many hours) to do. As in make it.. Just like a woodworker..
And I relate to the PIGS in the background and the Farmer...
>the pressure to do work that is good enough, vs better than expected. <I am not talking woodworking but other work :I have let stuff pass because my employer and her customers are in agreement. Less than top shelf is just fine with them. Now and then I get a customer that calls me on it. I find they are usually European, German in particular.So there you go.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 8/17/2009 2:02 am by roc
Edited 8/17/2009 2:03 am by roc
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