my pandemic project has been learning how to cut dovetails. progressing well,but have one major problem. I cut tails first then transfer layout for my pins from them. However my joints always end up too tight. what should i trim first-tails or pins?
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In theory you are fitting the pins to the tails, so you would trim the pins to fit the parts you laid them out from. Try to figure out why your transfer is leaving you with "fat" pins.
The pins are easier to pare anyway since they should be vertical & straight.
When you say trim, do you mean after cutting? If so, then aim for neither.
I also cut tails first, for the simple reason that I can clamp the two tail boards together and cut both at once. For the beginner, this also has the advantage of a longer line square to the board to saw to.
Cutting dovetails fat and then trimming to fit is a suckers bet. Learn to saw to the line accurately and eliminate trimming, or keep it to a bare minimum.
When scribing the lines from the tails with a pencil, I would recommend a drafting lead holder and sharpener. This will give a fine line and the lead can be extended out far enough so the body of the pencil will not interfere in tight spots as in small tails and pins. Using your thumb as a fence, score the first cut with the saw just kissing the outside edge of the line.
If using a marking knife, again just kiss the outside edge of the line with the saw, it will naturally take the path of least resistance and drop into the near edge of the scribed line.
In either case, that first stroke of the saw is crucial.
In short, go for broke and aim for accuracy off the saw.
With that said, if things are too tight when tapping together, I would recommend trimming the pins.
What MJ said.
As you cut more dovetails, you'll be more familiar with your technique, and you'll need to do less paring. But I find it's always easiest to pare pins.
I’m in the same boat as you OP (learning to hand cut dovetails). Here are a few thoughts.
Don’t forget you can lightly chamfer (what will become) the hidden edges of the pin board
It helps to really slow down and take your time. Examine every surface, clean up visibly messy corners, make sure your shoulders aren’t “humped”. And don’t be too aggressive in paring. It’s not *too* bad if you’re aggressive in the right spot, but if you’re paring somewhere that isn’t the real pain point, the gap hurts more. It feels like cheating (I have no idea why) but sometimes I use a file to take off material.
Don’t forget you can patch. I save the saw dust from cutting the tails and pins, then makes a little paste (using either wood glue or shellac).
Practice makes perfect (duh), I think especially with sawing. When I was “younger” (a year ago), I was always afraid of a grotesquely loose fit, so I would cheat ever so slightly, figuring I could pare later. Good impulse, bad idea. As confidence grows, I’m finding I feel more comfortable being “aggressive” and sawing right to the line.
Hope this helps. The short answer is “pins”.
Yes. I think most of us saw too little at first, hoping to avoid big gaps. Then end up paring a lot. After a while, you learn what it's safe to do right off the saw.
And it's different for different woods. I know I can mash white pine together if it's a little tight, but if I try it with cherry, it's going to split.
Dovetails are all about sawing and marking, chisel work takes a distant 3rd.
And practice. Break out some scrap and warm up, get the muscle memory dialed in.
Heck, even professional ball players do that.
I agree with all the comments, including the short answer - trimming pins. There are some more questions for you, and some more advice can be given depending on your answers. Do you use a sharp one beveled marking knife to transfer marks from tail board to pin board? Have you tried using Mike Pekovich's blue tape technique? How do you hold and align your pin board when you are transferring tail board to pin board? When you pare your pins, do you use the pencil smudge technique like Christian Becksvoort does? Do you place your thumbnail on the line or in the knife mark and saw right next to your thumbnail? When you saw, do you start by going across the top lightly, angle down the front sight line, and then use those kerfs to guide down the rear line? Refining these answers and practicing are what helps me.
I mark with pencil on drawers soft wood.
I use a single bevel marking knife for "show dt's", ex: a carcasae, box or 1/2 blinds.
I've used the blue tape technique, but more often than not habit causes me to forget.
Marking: For pencil marking I simply hold the pin board vertically and mark.
With a marking knife I clamp the tail (or pin) board in a vice at the level of my plane, slide the plane back and lay the pin (or tail) board on top. Line everything up, press down firmly and mark.
If you watch the FWW Bennett Street Toolbox videos, he has a good demonstration of tuning up the DT's.
I saw exactly as you described.
Agree with what is being said, learn to make accurate straight cuts with your dovetail saw to minimize any paring. Your aim should be to fit together your saw cuts without refining the cuts. It's just practice.
I don't like using a pencil, always using a marking knife. The blue tape method is very good and I used a white chalk to fill in the kerf and wiped away the surrounding area to expose just the kerf from the marking knife. The better your dovetail saw is, the better you can produce your cuts. I can recommend Rob Cosman dovetail saw as the best on the market.
Too tight is infinitely better than too loose. I suggest reading Mike Pekovich's dove tailing technique with masking tape to transfer tails to pins; it dramatically improved my dovetails. Also, put some pencil graphite on the inside of the tails and give them a light smack against the pins with the palm of your hand. The graphite will indicate the high spots. Keep applying the graphite until your tails are seated properly. You can also use a file to creep up on a snug fit by filing the graphite indicators on the pins. Another old trick that I learned from Mike Pekovich.
so... I've been doing the Bennet School Toolbox from the FWW series.
Pins first for me. Makes some sense.
My challenge is seeing the markings on the tail boards.
I find a blue mark better than a pencil one on the beech stock I'm using.
But the smudge isn't so visible.
I can chase the burnish mark but found that if I used some white chalk on the pins, the tail work is clearer for me.
Also, I have a nice band saw and have determined better to cut the tail waste with a 1" carbide blade and then pare with the chisel.
My challenge is that my dovetails are tighter than I'd like ...
Working on that.
White chalk! In days of yore, woodworkers used a pounce bag full of chalk dust to highlight layout lines like this. If you google "pounce bag dovetail" you'll see some examples.
I'm going to add a new option here, which is to skip the transfer step altogether. The transfer is where things go wrong for many, especially people just starting to hand cut dovetails.
Tailspin Tools allow for marking out both pinboard and tailboard at the same time with no transfer.
https://www.tailspintools.com/
**** Full disclosure ****
I am the inventor of TailSpin tools and the owner of the company.
I have settled on a mixture of techniques to get better results. I use Katz Moses magnetic guide block to help keep me on track. I use Cosman's little saw method to transfer the markings while shifting over the width of the marking saw. Had been clamping a steel rule to "catch" the pin board but will likely switch to the tape method next project. I hope this helps.
“my pandemic project has been learning how to cut dovetails. progressing well,but have one major problem. I cut tails first then transfer layout for my pins from them. However my joints always end up too tight. what should i trim first-tails or pins?”
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If this is happening, you are sawing too close to (or over) your pin lines. The lines should be scribed with a knife, not a pencil. The closer you saw to or against the line, the tighter the fit. The further from the line, the looser the fit.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html
Incidentally, the blue tape method for transferring dovetails was posted on forums and on my website some 3 years before Mike published it on FWW.
Practice makes perfect.
I have to disagree. I have cut dovetails many years with both pencils (Probably more so with a pencil) and using a marking knife. I rarely have to trim and have experienced equal results with both.
Hey, good for you mate. However, one needs to learn how to cut to the line of a pencil, and sawing to a knife line is easier (since it is more clearly defined). The OP is having difficulty with his sawing to the line, and a knife line will be easier in his/her case.
Regards from Perth
Derek
P.S. using a pencil to transfer skinny tails (London dovetails) to the pin board is impossible .. unless you have an incredibly skinny pencil :)
.. unless you have an incredibly skinny pencil :)
Yes I have a skinny pencil...I think I addressed that in my first post above. When it comes to dovetails there are many ways to skin that cat...
I have to admit, however, these days I typically pick up the knife when marking out.
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