I purchased a set of five chisels from Lie-Neilsen. Supposedly high end stuff: about $300. The steels keep falling off of the wooden handles. Breaks yer heart when these suckers fly off and connect with a concrete floor.
Do you think maybe epoxy would hold them together, or maybe if I scratched up the insides of the steel (cones) to give them some grip?
Replies
The handles probably aren't falling out after the recent weather that you have had ;-)
Seriously, IIRC, you might check the Tools and Shop issue, for a article by Bob Smalser on rehabbing chisels. I think he mentioned wrapping the tennon with cloth and reseating it in the iron.
PHM
Thank you. I'll look for the article.
This is common with socket chisels. I have the same set. To reseat the handle, take a mallet and hold the chisel up and whack the handle onto the iron. That will help seat the handle. This is normal with the change in weather. I would definately not recommend you epoxying or gluing the handle on.
Jeff
Thank you. I have done this a few times and they continue to fall off.
This is absolutely normal for socket chisels, and is addressed in the instructions that ship with the chisels. Just turn the chisel upside down and give the handle a good whack on your bench to seat it. To remove, just give a little whack to the side of the handle.There is also no problem with epoxying these on - in fact, I believe the LN site suggests this as an option for those who don't want to re-seat the handles occasionally. Even after epoxying, you can always remove the handles with a little heat if you want to...*
edit to add this from the LN website chisel information:Re-Seating Handles: When your Chisels arrive, the handles may be loose because of wood shrinkage. They may also loosen during dry weather. The handles are held in place by the wedging of the wood into the tapered socket. Just rap the chisel handle upside down to re-seat the handle (some people find loose handles annoying and prefer to glue them in). *
Edited 4/16/2007 1:00 pm ET by raney
absolutely normal for socket chisels..........
I've never before experienced it, and I use good chisels all the time.
Man, is that a lawsuit waiting to happen or what? Let's just project this concept into kitchen knives. Class action, baby.
IMO, we woodworkers are far too tolerant of poorly designed tools and equipment.
Blewcrowe complained, "...IMO, we woodworkers are far too tolerant of poorly designed tools and equipment."
I guess we are a tolerant lot. The design of socket chisels is at least 400 years old and has offered the same advantages and disadvantages from the start. Handles of socket chisels do come loose which means they fit easily into a till of a tool chest or a drawer--some can end up pretty long you know.
I've fixed up several old ones and know that lost handles are a common problem with socket chisels. They're often mushroomed from being hammered without the handle and I've circumcised a few to repair that. The attached image shows this is nothing new--it's a scan of part of an image of 17th and early 18th Century chisels found in archaeological sites. It's from Eighteenth-Century Woodworking Tools edited by Jay Gaynor. You can see that most of the socket chisels were used without their handles at the end of their lives. I think it indicates loose handles are nothing new with the socket design. The considerable advantages of socket chisels are why they survived and, I suspect, why LN chose them to make.
I also suspect the early socket chisels didn't come with instructions cautioning users about loose handles.
I guess it is to what degree does one expect the steel to come flying out of the socket. Would you consider it acceptable at every few strokes of hand pushing / cutting through something?
Remove the handle and rub the tapered piece with a pencil. Insert handle and rotate. Remove handle. Using a fine metal file, dress away any smudged regions, reinsert and knock in place. Repeat as neccessary. Be sure to inspect the shoulder. It must not contact the top of the socket.
If the pencil is uniformly smudged, (you're screwed) the problem may lie with the perfection of the (machined?) socket. Old sockets are rusted at least, but more typically out of round, and rough. I think this helps hold them in place.
Good luck with your chisels.
Adam
Wow, I didn't know where you were going with this and reread your first sentence about five times. LOL.
Got it. Sounds like good advice. I'll give that a try as nothing else has worked very long.
Thanks.
A recent set of chisels I bought have brass rings at the top. It was suggested that the handles be soaked in tung oil to set the rings. They have not come loose in over a year. Perhaps that would work with these- i.e.-soak the handle in place in the oil overnight.
That's also a thought, albeit they have a finish on them so they'd have to be soaked while disconnected from the steel, so that it would get in and swell the cone. Note these chisels have no ferrules.
There's an idea in itself. What if I loaded the cone with tung oil, then inserted the steel. Do you think that would work?
I don't know how much oil would be left in the socket when the handle was forced in or how much it actually takes to swell it. It wouldn't hurt to try one. It would not be irreversible>
Well, it's a low risk, cheap attempt.
The handles on socket chisels do need reset from time to time, depending on humidity. Get a piece of hard wood, like hard Maple, put the chisle edge-down away from the edge of the block of wood and wail a couple times on the handle.
A dab of epoxy works good--but still seat them after adding a small drop or two on the inside of the socket.
Take care, Mike
Thank you, that's probably what I'll do.
I've got the same chisels and it drove me nuts when using them every day. Sand the wood and put a bit of Gorilla glue on them. I've haven't had any more trouble since (if I keep them from rolling of the bench, straight down)! BTW - They are the only thing I've ever found that I like that glue on IMHO.
Aside from the chisels themselves.....I have rubber mats (jig-saw-puzzle types) on my shop floor, mostly to sooth feet and knees, and provide some insulation, but I can't tell you how many times they've prevented a nasty wound to a tool or measuring device.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Indeed, Jamie, I had a block plane FLY out of my hand three times last weekend and hit the deck. Fortunately it didn't break or defor, which was pure luck. I told myself I would put mats ALL ovedr the floor instead of just as they are now -- on my usual standing spots.Cheap insurance.Joe
Yes, I have one, too. But I tend to move the tools to the work which might be anywhere in the shop (2k sqft).
good call on the mats. way to think outside the socket as it were.
Hey Blewcrowe,
I would recommend against the epoxy, just because it's not a reversible choice. I have the same set of chises and I've just gotten into the habit of seating the handle before I use it each day.
One way to make them stick just a bit longer, is to dust the handle tapers with rosin, like from a pitchers bag. It's not permanent, but it will add a little stick-tion to the handle.
Tom
Why would you want to remove a chisel from it's socket? I've woodworked all my life and never once thought it would be desireable to remove a chisel from its socket.
Hey Blewcrowe,If you can remove a chisel from its socket, then you're a stronger man than I, since the sockets are forged into the blade.If you've been woodworking all your life and never had to replace a handle, then you are either luckier than I, or younger. Either way, it sounds like you've found your solution.Tom
Prior to this I'd been using Pfeil carving tools, Two Cherries chisels, plus a few Sorby chisels. I've got bench chisels, short chisels, mortise chisels, cranknecks, skewed, and more. I've never once had a chisel fall out of its socket before. Maybe I'm just lucky. And these Lie-Neilsen didn't just fall out once. They fall out and keep on falling out. Seems to me there's something inherently wrong with their design or manufacturing. That, I don't know, but I'ved reached the point now where I'm scared to use the dang things.
As far as I know, all the carving chisels etc. you listed are tanged chisels, not socket chisels.
As mentioned, some people like to ba able to easily replace or change socketed chisel handles. I don't care to do either--which is why I don't own them anymore. But when I did, I never had problems using a drop or two of epoxy and swapping out handles when needed.
If you use just a drop or two of epoxy when you reseat the chisels, they may still come loose down the road sometime as the constant hitting may break the bond. But you can also fairly easily replace a chisel handle should you ever break one.
In use, socket chisels are reseated each time you use a hammer or mallet on them. If you haven't used them for a period of time, simply use a block of wood, bash the handle with a mallet as already discussed. I think you'll find they do not loosed all that much--if you use them.
Take care, Mike
Mike, you have a point about the tang and lack thereof.
I like your idea. Put a dab of epoxy in there then seat it home. Should be enough to improve the situation which is all I'm looking for.
While these handles are supposed to come off, it's not supposed to be quite as easy as you're describing. It's possible you just got a bad one.
If you can't figure out how to make the handle stick, return it (and maybe even the chisel too) and ask LN for a replacement. They'll almost certainly accomodate you. LN's pretty good that way.
MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
Four of the five set are regularly falling off. I know I got on an early waiting list for these and they were one of the first sets LN made. Could be there was an issue with these as is commonly the case with first editions.
I know they would probably take them back, but if I go to that trouble and all they do is whack it with a mallet, which I've already done and doesn't seem to help them seat very long, then it's a waste of shipping.
I've got 15 of their planes and three of their saws. I am happy with them. This is the first thing I've gotten from them that seems defective.
What about a small piece of double-sided carpet tape on the handle where it slips into the socket? Hopefully you could get it seated without too much wrinkling of the tape and it would prevent the handle from falling off, but you could remove if necessary.
More good ideas. Youse guys are amazing.
Blewcrowe,
As many here have already said, socket chisels will sometimes separate from their handles, however, they (the handles) should not fall out each time you use them. If they consistently fall out, and you have tried the techniques suggested for seating them, I would suggest you contact Lie-Nielsen and explain the situation. I will bet my supply of curly maple that Lie-Nielsen will make it right! Right Tom?
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
I'm assuming that these are the bench chisels.
What ever you do in the end, remember that it is expected that these handles do come off. The reason is that this gives the option of using the paring handles. You are meant to rap the side of the socket and loosen them. Obviously they could do with a little more adhesion - but do not do anything permanent. Making sure that nothing is binding is a start, swelling the wood with tung oil is another, and hammering them in firmly is to finish.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Crowe, it's by design....
But I would sort of go Adam's route first- just check the taper is not bottoming out first but if it is there is no need to be screwed as you can either turn or rasp/file/sand/disc sand/belt sand that taper to suit. Then whack it in with or without epoxy- even contact glue or gorilla glue would be fine.
Or you can re-locate to a wet and dank place.Philip Marcou
Blewcrewe,
An earlier responder suggested rubbing the taper all over with a pencil then reinserting it to detect the high spots. I would be a little leery of doing that. I have used pencil lead many times as a substitute lubricant (it's just graphite). It works fine to make things slippery. That would just compound your problem.
Regards, George
You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard
Mebbe, but I could rinse it off with naptha or something. Thanks much.
Denatured alcohol will remove pencil marks.
Alcohol. Thanks.
Have you contacted LN directly? I've heard their support is top notch.
I would like to re-state the pencil rubbing and leveling the high spots... getting a good friction fit is essential. The more wood touches metal, the better those handles can grip the tang.
Just a thought: Contact cement is reversible with heat.
Also, there here is a link to TWW's guide to setting hoops on japanese chisels. There may be some info here which could pertain to your situation.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/setting_hoop_guide.html
I am going to try your method. Seems the most logical to me.
Before doing anything else, I recommend ascertaining what the problem is. I can think of 2 off the top of my head. 1) The taper is too high. These things work on the principle of socket lock (like a morse taper). Morse tapers don't work at 30 degrees. Its possible (though unlikely) that LN machined too high a taper angle.2) The handle has changed shape and no longer perfectly matches the socket's taper. This can happen due to a defect in craftsmanship, (not likley) through wear,(?) or due to seasonal changes in the handles shape (most likley).Because any glue (short of epoxy) will rely on contact surface area, you want to try the pencil trick I described first. The graphite won't effect the socket lock, but if you are nervous, use chalk or lightly sand it off when you are done using 220 grit paper.I think what you are going to find is that less than half the taper is in contact. When that is corrected, you'll be amazed at how well that handle will be held in place. It can be nearly impossible to pull it straight out (twisting seems to help).Larry is right. This is 1000 year old design that just needs a chance to impress you. So give it a chance. You can always glue it later. But my advice is to find out what the problem is before you fix it.AdamP.S. Most glues probably won't hold up to the shock, and differential movement in this joint which is why chisel makers haven't been gluing on handles for the last 1000 years.
Edited 4/17/2007 7:12 pm ET by AdamCherubini
You probably hit the nail on the head when you say a lack of contact area combined with seasonal drying.
Send them back.
I have had a set of Barr chisels for 8 years and the handles never fell out from day one.
Best steel and design for about the same cost of the Lie Nielsen.
Best money ever spent, for chisels.
J.P.
Thank you.
Hey Guys,
I'm tellin' ya, the rosin works. I've used it, and pounding on it just makes it stick better.
Tom
Pretty funny!! 43 posts and counting over socket chisel handles falling out. LN makes some of the finest hand tools available. If you don't like them, you should return them, and get some Sears chisels with the yellow plastic handles. I hear that they don't come off.
Jeff
Yellow handled Sears. So I should get some like you have, huh?
I have both the bevel-edge and mortice chisels from Lie-Nielsen and haven't had a single problem. If you haven't done so already, I suggest contacting them directly - they have top-notch support for their products!
Good luck!
J
Appreciate it. I know they're a good outfit. I have a couple dozen of their pieces. Never had an issue with anything until these durned things.
I just sent them an email asking their advice. I'll let you all know what they had to say.
This email from Lie-Neilsen .........
"If you're having trouble keeping your handles seated then we would suggest gluing them in. We'd suggest quick dry epoxy or Gorrila Glue."
So, that's what I'm going to do.
I have the LN and used a small piece of 300 grit sand paper with grit side to the handle and set it in- does not move. Use just a large enough pice to cover about 1/4 of the diameter of the taper. 3 weeks and has not come loose yet!
Eric
That too is an excellent idea.
One thing you might do is just remember that it might happen and pick up the chisel by the socket or with a finger on the socket and give it a quick tap with your mallet to seat it each time you use it. I've done this for years and it's second nature now.
It's the same way with wedged wooden planes with single irons, they'll fall out if the wedge loosens up. Clark & Williams planes come with a warning about this on every plane they sell. So when you pick one up, you learn to hook a finger up over the iron to keep it in place or quick tip it sideways to hold the iron in place until you set the iron for use. Or you spend lots of time regrinding your irons.
It's all part of being in partnership with your tools. Work with them awhile and you learn about them.
Or mix up a batch of epoxy or polyurinethane gloop and fogeddabouddit.
David C
I hate it when that happens with my slicks......heaven forbid my toes is in the way.
I've rehabed only a few Japanese planes where a piece of cardboard gave sufficient shimmitation to hold the blade in place when the wood body reacted with the environment. Dunno if that a mabe a drop of glue would provide sufficient bondage to hold the tangs in place....
Epoxy is typically fairly permanent, and not as "undoable" as the restorative folks might like. Hide glue is more to their liking, but methinks that if yer chisels ever hit the restorers bench, a drop of PVA carpenters glue on a shim of cardboard or paper is equally removable as one with a drop of hide glue....
Just my thots.
ERic
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