Replies

1. 
   timberrattler | Feb 28, 2003 06:49pm | #1

   No way you can inject glue and pull it together. Sounds like it's a fill job. FYI there is an article in the current issue of FWW by Scott Gibson called "Building a Sofa Table" that shows you a couple of differen't ways to get !/4 sawn on 4 sides. If you haven't already seen it check it out.

1. 
   badoyn | Feb 28, 2003 07:02pm | #2

   Yeah, I saw it...unfortunately too late. Had I seen it prior I would have made the legs with the lock bit method. That seemed like the better method for me.

   Michael

1. 
   davamoore | Feb 28, 2003 11:21pm | #3

   I agree with Circlekid.  I don't know how "inexperienced" you actually are, since you're working on a pretty impressive project, but I like to remind people that "sanding dust" is much finer and better to use than "sawdust" (as in from a saw) when filling a small gap.  You may know this already... but I used the coarser dust on my very first woodworking project, thinking that I knew what was meant by "sawdust" and, well... ugh... the fix looked worse than the mistake!

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

2. 
   clampman2 | Mar 01, 2003 02:04am | #4

   Don't fill it yet.

   If you can still get the legs on a table saw, set the blade on a 45 degree angle, and cut a saw kerf dead center into the open joints 3/8 or so deep.

   Then rip like stock on a slight taper,(2 degrees or so) making sure the small part of the taper is smaller than the saw kerf, and the fat part of the taper is bigger. Dry fit the shim. If it doesn't fit tight enough, hand plane, joint (between two boards), or rip (with backing) the thin part of the taper back some and try again.

   Once you get a tight fit, glue both sides of the shim and fill the kerf.

   Don't sand until the glue sets up.

   No one will ever know.

   Clampman

1. 
   clampman2 | Mar 01, 2003 02:17am | #5

   By the way badoyn, if you do ever use lock edge, make sure you dont put any glue inside the groove itself or towards the inside of the joint. The water in aliphiatic will swell the thicker wood and the joint will bond with the outside of the miter having a huge gap.

   very little glue is needed in lockedge joints. In fact, spar varnish is plenty sticky enough to use in place of glue.

   Clampman

2. 
   badoyn | Mar 03, 2003 06:50pm | #12

   How might I make this cut safely? I have a left tilting contractors saw and for the life of me I'm drawing a blank on how to make this cut? Do I move the fence to the left of the blade? Doesn't this trap the piece and pose a kickback threat?

   Thanks,

   Michael

1. 
   clampman2 | Mar 03, 2003 08:56pm | #13

   Bad,

   Your cut will only be 1/4 to 3/8 deep, so the chance for a kickback is approaching zero. A lot of saws are still manufactured with arbors that tilt toward the fence. Yes, if you have the room, move the fence to the other side of the blade. You might want to set the blade and run a piece of scrap through first. It feels weird to have the fence to the left of the blade and a practice run will give you , well , practice at it.

   Like one of the other posters said, it really is a very easy proceedure to do.

   Good luck,

   Clampman

1. 
   badoyn | Mar 03, 2003 10:30pm | #14

   Thanks. I'll give it a try.

   Michael

2. 
   johnhardy | Mar 03, 2003 10:33pm | #15

   Sounds like there's only one leg with the "gap".

   Why not simply make that leg over? With a project like this, you want to be happy with the end result. And it's a learning experience. The extra time will be minimal, and the cost of the wood you're throwing away isn't a lot.

   John

1. 
   badoyn | Mar 03, 2003 10:46pm | #16

   Actually two legs have some gaps. I'm hoping not to re-do the legs because I'm not sure I have enough quarterwawn white oak in store. Also, I'd like to learn to fix some mistakes as I'm a novice I'm sure they'll rear their ugly head again. :)

   Michael

1. 
   Arcticat1 | Mar 04, 2003 02:00am | #17

   I would like to say I never have to use the following trick, but sometimes it is the only thing you can do. If the crack is less than 1/32, work some regular yellow glue into the crack with a brush or your finger and let it sit for about a minute, just long enough to thicken to a point where it won't run. Then take your random orbit sander with 120 or so grit and work both sides of the miter while the glue is still wet. This does two things - mixes a perfect filler with the dust you are creating, and packs it into the crack at the same time. If you have dust collection on your sander, turn it off or purposely misallign the holes in your paper with your pad so that all the dust you create gets mixed with the wet glue. I know it sounds sketchy, but it really does work great. If the joint is any bigger than 1/32 though it won't work.

   By the way, next time before you glue up a mitered post, lay all your pieces out on a flat surface with the long sides facing up, mitered points touching. Put reinforced strapping tape every 8" or so across the grain of all four pieces. Flip over and apply the glue. Then simply roll the pieces up and tape the last joint. Your miters will always be perfect with this method. It also helps to slightly overcut the bevel to say 45 and 1/4 degrees. I have done 16' mitered corners this way by myself with no clamps. Best of luck

2. 
   badoyn | Mar 04, 2003 02:18am | #18

   Thanks for the tip.

   The first two glue ups I didn't tape them together...hence the gaps. For the following two I taped them and glued them and taped them again before adding clamps. That worked much better.

   Michael

3. 
   johnhardy | Mar 04, 2003 02:26am | #19

   "... before adding clamps."

   With tape you don't need clamps. In fact, I'd argue that the clamps exert pressure that counteracts the pressure of the tape and makes for a worse glueup.

   John

4. 
   johnhardy | Mar 04, 2003 02:31am | #20

   I started a thread awhile ago (in "Joinery") about a different method of making quarter sawn Mission style table legs. See http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=8901.1

   This method creates absolutely perfect glue joints and at the same time creates table legs that are absolutely square.

   John

5. 
   jackiechan | Mar 04, 2003 05:36am | #21

   Michael,

   An easy and reusable method for clamping is by wraping the pieces together with latex (surgical) tubing.  It can be found at better hardware stores and medical supply houses.  The longer the tubing is stretched, the tighter the clamping action will be.  Wrap it around your project, and tuck the end under a previous wrap.  It will hold itself in place from the friction/pressure.  (A single wrap around of blue painter's masking tape will keep the pieces together until the tubing is in place.

   If you have any questions, please send them along.

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

6. 
   timberrattler | Mar 04, 2003 06:43pm | #22

   In Methods of Work on the FWW disk. The surgical tubing can be replaced by a spiral cut bike inner tube. For the frugal guys. About 1 inch wide.

7. 
   jackiechan | Mar 05, 2003 05:09am | #23

   You're correct, but from my experience the black tube tends to leave black scuff marks on light colored wood.  It's easily cleaned up with light sanding or a few passes from a cabinet scraper.

   I use bike tire inner tubes to make gaskets for dust collecting connections.  For example, I just finished a totally enclosed router table system.  On the back of the cabinet, I cut a port and mounted a jointer's dust collection hood so that I could use my dust collector with its 4" (dia.) hose.  I cut strips of the inner tube, and put them between the dust hood and the cabinet to create a positive seal. 

   Another trick is to wrap a strip of inner tube, stretched tightly, around the handles of clamp handles (e.g. Bessey Tradesmen, etc...) when added grip is needed.  Tuck the ends under a previous wrap, and the strip will be held in place by the friction.

   Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.

3. 
   DaveHeinlein | Mar 01, 2003 03:51am | #6

   A trick I was taught by an old timer was that if the joint is not too far open, you can 'burnish' the joint closed with a piece of hardened steel like the shank of a screwdriver.

   What you do is rub each edge towards the center, closing them together, and softening the edge at the same time. I've done it many times, it works great, and doesn't come open in time.

1. 
   srgeiger | Mar 01, 2003 04:24am | #7

   The burnishing method works pretty good, but use it carefully with oak, since the open grain at the point edge of the miter has a tendency to splinter a bit. 

   I used a combination of the methods posted (fill and then burnish) on some bed posts, and after sanding, I am the only one who knows they weren't tight after glue up.  Sanding dust and liquid hide glue worked great.

   Steve

1. 
   DaveHeinlein | Mar 01, 2003 04:55pm | #8

   You are right about the coarse grain of Oak, a somewhat light-handed and careful approach is needed. Expierience will be the teacher.

   As far as glue and sanding dust is concerned, The glue saturated dust will not accept any stains or finish that may be used, and will stay lighter than the surrounding wood, so try to minimise that approach. What I have found to be sucessful when a filler is needed, is to mix the sanding dust with a small amount of the finish being used, into putty-like consistency. This is especially successful with Cerry, as the filler will darken equally with the finished wood.

1. 
   srgeiger | Mar 01, 2003 05:06pm | #9

   The liquid hide glue will actually allow the dust to take a small amount of stain (won't be the same color as the wood, though).  In my experience, this was just enough to give the background color, and give some backing so the oak won't splinter as easily.  Sure wouldn't want to use this filler out in the open, but I guess that is the case with any fillers.

   I also taped along both edges to protect from filling the grain with the blemish filler, since finish will have a different sheen if the grain is completely filled in one area and not in the others. 

   Cheers,

   Steve

1. 
   badoyn | Mar 01, 2003 07:52pm | #10

   Thanks for all the great suggestions. I'm still pretty much a novice but I decided to try my hand at this project because I learn well under duress. :)

   I did mean sanding dust, not saw dust.

   I think I'll go with the filler route as the voids aren't that big. I'll try the liquid hide glue, Titebond I assume, to work the dust into a putty and push it into the void. Good idea about taping the edge to limit the over goo. I'll then let it dry and sand it down.

   Thanks again,

   Michael

2. 
   Glendo | Mar 02, 2003 03:38am | #11

   Try the spleen and kerf method. It's really very easy and practically invisable. Filler always looks like crap, and it will probably annoy you every time you see it.

   Glendo.