Hi Folks,
First time message poster here. I am building a large set of maple cabinets for our kitchen pantry. I am planning on flat-panel rail/stile doors with 3/4″ thick rails/stiles. I have a rail/stile router bit that cuts a 1/4″ groove for the panel, but all the 1/4″ plywood I’ve seen is less than 1/4″ thick by a small amount (typically 1/16th less).
Has anyone out there seen 1/4″ plywood that is actually 1/4″ thick or have any suggestions for how to make thinner panels work well with a 1/4″ groove?
Thanks,
Woody101 in MD
Edited 1/7/2005 5:09 pm ET by woody101
Replies
Since it's plywood, I would just glue them in assuming it's panel rattle you are worried about. You could pop a brad or two in from the back on an angle to hold them in place.
Try to glue the panel in the dead middle of the slot and you'll have less and a 32nd space showing on the show side of the door. They'll look fine.
Edited 1/7/2005 5:27 pm ET by cstan
Woody101,
You could use 3/8" white maple ply...and cut a rabbit on the back side
Most, if not all, of the router bit makers, sell bits designed for what is sold as 1/4 inch plywood but is in fact 5mm thick. With a 5mm spiral bit you will get a perfect fit for the plywood you have.
John W.
Woody
Another suggestion is to use 1/4" MDF, with maple veneer of course.
It's usually closer to 1/4" than ply, and a damn site better than 1/4" ply for smooth and flatness.
Doug
I have a rail/stile cutter set that cuts the groove smaller than 1/4". If memory serves, I got it from MLCS 6-7 years ago.
Hi woody101 ,
There is 1/4" or darn near plywood being manufactured. You just may need to find a supplier that carries it . Ask for true 1/4" , usually it is a domestic product as opposed to an import. It will in most cases have a MDF core so you can be sure of a smooth and flat panel.The 5.2mm which is very common is good quality stock as a rule. Another option besides pinning the panels from the back side between the frame and the panel , (which by the way is an industry accepted practice) is to make square edge frames on the table saw . Tenon the rail ends with a dado or router or whatever works for you, cut the slots with 2 passes on the TS. I keep the panel in the center of the frame when doing it this way.Run the slot cut off of each side of each part to ensure being centered.
good luck dusty
Woody, you could use 1/4" ply with an MDF core. It's right at 1/4" thick. It also tends to be a lot flatter than veneer core. You should be able to get it from any specialty lumberyard.
Mike.
Edit- Didn't mean to repeat what the others said- I guess I missed Dougs post and I must have been typing as Dusty was posting.
Edited 1/8/2005 12:39 am ET by arcticcat
Thanks Everyone,I knew you'd have some good ideas. I've been woodworking for years but have never spent any time on this forum. I'll be sure to come back.Woody
I build cope-and-stick raised panel doors and install them inside-out. They are strong, easy to build with my cabinet door bit set, and the panels take up the finish just like the rails and stiles (when using plywood this is not always the case).
Here's a couple of pics from my own kitchen.
Interesting idea Jeff. I'll keep this idea in mind.
Like the pics - nice work.
Woody
If there's a chance for excessive expansion to cause a problem, you could use Space Balls (not the movie). They're small foam rubber balls made for panel inserts in doors so the panel won't rattle but can still expand/contract.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Jeff,
Thanks for the inspiration. I'm just getting ready to build my maple / shaker-influenced kitchen cabinets. I really like what you did, with both with doors and drawers. The solid panels installed backwards, with the shallow recess from the front side, definately works for me aesthetically.
We are going to have a lot of drawers, and I wasn't happy with the idea of a bunch of solid flat panels. The idea of the "frame look" with the middle panel flush with the two "stiles" is great. How long have you had them in? Have you had any issues with wood movement over the seasons? Did you do anything special to prevent problems?
Wayne
Thanks.
I've had these cabinets install for about 18 months, so this is our second wet season with them and everything is fine. But we live in a stable climate (Bay Area) so moisture related wood movement is not extreme. I attached the stiles to the faces with biscuits, I thought about doing something fancier but in the end decided that simple was better in this case. By the way, the drawer boxes themselves are through dovetailed apple ply with Blum Tandem full extension undermount slides, I highly recomend this approach as it looks great and function is fantastic. The lowest level drawers are larger and I went with a frame-and-panel drawer face with reduced dimensions on the rails and stiles because it looked better than going with the other style, plus all of the lower drawers use this so it's consistent.
It's important to consider wood movement on this design in particular because I did increase the rails and stiles to 4" on the doors and panels so even small movement is likely to be more noticeable. The drawers faces will be okay because the movement will be vertical and I did increase the gap to accomodate this.
I finished all of the doors, drawer faces, and cabinet carcases with a water white semi gloss lacquer front and back.
All of the cabinet panels have the same frame-and-panel construction, even the panels that frame in the built in refrigerator that we have. I have more pictures I can send if you are interested in seeing the whole job.
Jeff,
Yes, I'd love to see more! You can e-mail directly if you don't want to post:
[email protected]
I'm planing on the 1/2" 9-ply drawers as well, in prefinished Maple. I'll still finish the exterior, but for drawers, cabinet interiors and shelves this stuff is great. A cabinet maker friend turned me on to it. I was thinking half-blind dovetails 'cause I've got 40+ drawers to build and half-blind seemed easier/faster. I'm also going with the under-drawer slides - pricy but after all that work on the drawers I want to show them off!
Also curious about your door/drawer pulls - do you remember manufacturer/style/ source? We have something of a curve theme and they would tie in very nicely.
I'm in Pleasant Hill - where are you? Yes, it is nice to be where the weather swings don't make for as much wood movement, though this year...
Wayne
that prefinished maple is great, I get it at my sheet good supplier in SF, a real time saver. I also like 1/4" apple ply for the drawer bottoms, also prefinished; it's pricier but substantial in feel. The Blum Tandem hardware is really nice (it pulls the drawer closed in the last inch or so), plus you can build the drawer to the opening without cutting it back for the hardware.
The pulls and handles came from http://www.wwhardware.com, but I know that HD Expo sells it as well (although not in as many sizes), I think Amerock makes them. We have the Kitchenaid built-in refer which also has the curved handles, so the theme works.
Check your email for more pics.
jeff
PS- I live in Woodside, so we're not far from each other.
Lee Valley also has door pulls and knobs. I bought the 128mm stainless wire pulls with a flat area (I'll add the name/part# later) and they were $2.95 ea, as opposed to $29.95 at Home Depot. For the Lee Valley pulls, go to their site(http://www.leevalley.com) and click on 'Hardware', 'Handles and Pulls', Specialty Hardware', 'Stainless Steel Bow Handles'. You'll be able to see their others and they have a good selection. For those of you in Canada, they are, too.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 1/11/2005 4:13 pm ET by highfigh
first off the doors look beautiful
the only question i kave is why did you reverse them
i think the raised panel is to beautiful to be stuck inside where it isn't seen
What are you paying for your undermount slides down your way. I live near Toronto and am paying $34.00 a pair which seems alot . I must admit they are the caddilac's of drawer slides.
Does anyone know of any suppliers in the East that are online.
Brian
around $26 for the slides and $2 for a pair of locking mechanisms, so if your price is CD$34 then you are getting a good deal, if USD$34 then you are paying a bit of a premium. I buy almost all of my cabinet parts through wwhardware.com, have you tried them?
My price is in Cdn $ and right now a real dollar costs me approx $1.20 CDN. Thanks for the response.
Brian
Hey BRoss,
Go check out http://www.cabinetparts.com. They sell the tandem slides for about half of that! They are pretty good on hinges and hardware, too. Oh, also, for a drawer that doesn't need to be full extension, you could go with the Blum Solo slides for a lot less money. By the way, traditional shaker doors often had a reversed panel in the middle. The panel was raised to fit in the dado, but the decorative raised potion was kept inside because of the shaker design's lack of ornamentation.
-Rob Haworth
Thanks for the link, they do have good prices. It is qiute easy for me as I live an hour from Niagara Falls, N.Y. and usually pick up at the Fed Ex terminal.
Brian
BRoss,
Check out http://www.wwhardware.com - they are evan a few $ cheaper than cabinetparts.com. I do appreciate the link though - always nice to add another proven source to the Favorites list.
Wayne
The real beauty of a raised panel door is the practicality of the construction method. Not only does it facilitate an efficient build, but it accomodates the aforementioned wood movement issue. The glue area provided by the cope-and-stick joinery makes for a really strong door. And yes, they do look nice as well.
The interior design of our house is more contemporary in style, although much of our furniture is arts & crafts inspired. Basically, we (which is to say "my wife") doesn't like a lot of ornamentation, so when it came to our kitchen remodel the choice was pretty straightforward, flat panel doors.
When it came time to actually nail down the design and build it, I went with the raised panel construction for the best of reasons - it is simple, predictable, and time efficient. I'm just not a big fan of flat panel doors utilizing plywood panels, they just don't feel that substantial to me and the finishing can be a challenge when you start fooling around with color as the plywood takes the finish at a different rate than solid wood (I wet sand a clear danish oil in before finishing them in lacquer).
like i said before they are beautiful door
the logic seem right for construction and the arguement concerning stain on plywood seem to be right on target
the best reason is " the wife" we all know they have control
Use a router slot cutter. Stack 2, 3/32" cutters together with a thin shim in between. You will get a perfect fit and a slot cutter runs cooler than straight bits because the chips are being thrown out of the cut slot.
You can get MDF core that is 1/4 thick for the panels- its better than plywood you can buy. Thats what we use.
Ron
Woody,
Whiteside (and probably other router bit makers as well) make(s) a retrofit cutter which makes a 7/32" slot rather than the 1/4" slot to accept the 1/4" ply. http://www.routerbits.com has them. I have one of their catalogs. If I find it in my "well organized office", I will let you know the part number. I don't know if it works on other companies' cope/stick sets. You may have to buy a Whiteside set. Or, find out if the company that made your set offers a similar option. This may be your easiest solution.
Cheers
Kyle
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