I am attempting to flatten the sole of an old No. 6 Bailey type plane – 18 inches.
The sole was warped, and cupped in length. Using 36 inch long safety glass (two sheets of glass sandwiching some sort of plastic sheet) 1/4 inch thick held on two pieces of 3/4 inch glued – up plywood held on a 1 1/2 inich thick benchtop, I sprayed glue 40 grit sandpaper to the glass and worked away at flattening the sole. After quite some hours, I still find that the heel and toe are not level along the length or across the sole. I wonder if anyoine has some suggestings?
Paige
Replies
Well . . . . . . I've been known to use a piece of float glass, some kerosene, and valve lapping compound from the local auto parts store. Valve lapping compound is a pretty thick paste and comes in several grades. The kerosene was to thin it a bit, light oil would probably work too. It worked on a $5.00 (garage sale) Bailey jointer, added a Hock blade and it's like a new plane. I'd start with a medium grade, then go to a real fine grade. Then polish it with the sandpaper.
I use a piece of long sanding belt on top of a jointer or table saw.
After quite some hours, I still find that the heel and toe are not level along the length or across the sole. I wonder if anyoine has some suggestings?
Paige
Don't take this the wrong way, but your effort is excessive! Assuming that you have re-assembled the plane and it is not taking a fine shaving (you have, haven't you?), either use the plane as a large jack plane (where thicker shavings are desirable), or bin it and get a better example (they are cheaper to buy than your labour/time expended).
Regards from Perth
Derek
If the heel and toe just drop of a bit then perhaps you have a 17 inch plane instead of an 18 inch. Would that matter much?
Sean
40 Grit????
Thsts a little on the coarse size my friend...
That in fact is coarse from wood, I would stat with something around 100 if you dont want to spend a week trying to remove the scratches..
If you have a lot of material to remove, then 40 grit is the place to start. It is quicker to start coarse and then go through the grades to get a good finish than to try to remove a lot of material with a finer grade. In fact that is the problem in the first posting of this thread, even with 40 grit it takes a long time.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Edited 9/3/2006 12:04 pm ET by JohnWW
John,
40 Grit is way to coarse for cast iron..
In my 30+ of working in a machine shop and the 4 + years of trade school and nitght class and the 200+ hand planes I have refinished as a money making service I know I am right...
If you start with 40 you will spend two hours removing scratches..As another poster said you will want to make sure your not flat and need a lot of metal removed because if you used 40 grit and you where almost flat you know have a task just to remove the scratches..
Johnny K, Wave Guide (Radar) Prototype Shop Foreman for the USS Ticonderoga (CG 47) Project http://www.navysite.de/cg/cg47.html
Edited 9/4/2006 7:52 pm ET by rarebear
I have always used 100 grit.
If one wants to check to see if something is flat then cover the area to be checked with dykem blue or use a Marks a Lot. Then place the some sandpaper or abrasive on the flat surface and then move the piece to be checked across the surface of the snadpaper to see where the high spots are.
Were you grinding the soles of the 200 planes flat by hand power, similar to the way the first poster described?
John W.
John, I've got to side with you on this one. The original poster said he had spent hours working on the sole without it getting flat. If he's working by hand, he's got to go coarser, not finer. It may well take hours to work out 60 grit scratches but, that is certainly better than spending hours with a higher grit paper to find that the sole is still not flat and hours more are needed before starting to work up through the grits.Matt
Matt,
Thanks for backing me up on this, and saying it well.
In reality the sole could be heavily scratched, never cleaned up beyond the 40 grit scratches and it would work fine. Polishing the sole makes the plane shinier, but it doesn't change the performance, that depends on the sole being flat over most of its length, and that requires heavier grits if a lot of metal needs to be removed.
John W.
Over the last few years I guess I have done about 200 planes..
The first 100 was all by hand and this was not 100% rflat and polished.. But the first dozen I was still at work and use a surface grinder and I could do the sole and cheeks in 20 mins..
The second 100 I used a belt sander and would finish flattening by hand and I would never use anything less than 80 on a belt sander.. Most machine shops you will never find any sand paper less than 100 grit..
To each his own and most of my life I have worked metal not wood and anything less that 80 is to coarse for meatl IMHO
The scratches from 40 grit aren't deep enough to keep the plane from working perfectly (especially a long plane), assuming it is in fact flattened at some point.
You finish your planes to a brighter look because that's what your customers expect.
If you've got a stroke sander, put 120 grit paper on it and carefully sand the plane's sole on the top of the belt's run (not underneath where the sanding is usually done). I know it's not de rigueur, but it takes metal off amazingly fast. Careful of the sparks.
DR
It is a little late now that you have already started the flattening process, but you should have started buy determining how flat the plane was to start with. Put the plane on the glass next time without any sandpaper on it and go around the outside with feeler gauges. This will give you an indication of the flatness and therefore how much you will need to remove. Then you can decide if the sole can be flattened without removing so much material, that may affect the mouth opening or to make the sole too thin. If there is a lot to remove then a trip to a machine shop that has a surface grinder or a milling machine with face mills large enough to cut the sole in a single pass is in order. They can also square the sides too, if you are going to want to use the plane to shoot miters. When you get it back there will be only a little edge breaking and polishing with fine paper to do.
The one other thing that came to mind when I read. "After quite some hours, I still find that the heel and toe are not level along the length or across the sole." Is the sand paper flexing and lifting as you push the plane over it creating a bit of a 'bow wave'? You didn't make it clear if the heel and toe haven't had the metal removed yet or if it is still rounded even with the sanding marks over the length of the sole. If it's the latter, you could be rocking the plane from side to side and transferring the pressure from front to back as you push over the sandpaper. Gripping the plane in the middle around the frog only might help stop any tendency to 'rock and roll'.
Try calling a few machine shops in your area to see if they know of a shop that has a lapping machine. They would be able to finish flattening that plane in about an hour. I did this for a #5 Bailey that I inherited. It was in real rough shape when given to me but had much sentimental value. After 8 hours of my time working at 80 grit it was obvious that there was atleast 8+ hours to go. They were able to get that plane dead flat in an hour, only cost me $35, and we had a pretty lively discussion while they worked. That $35 was money well spent. That jack plane had a Sweetheart blade and is one sweet cutting plane. Several friends who saw the "before" were quite impressed with the after, both in appearance and functiion. Good luck with your project.
I may be repeating information ...
The ONLY sandpaper that I would use to flatten a plane sole is Zirconion Oxide belt sander belts. I begin with 80 and 120 grit. While the 80 may seem rough, the Zirconion Oxide is very, very tough and the 120 will remove the deep scratches. One of the problems with sanding cast iron is that the sandpaper wears quickly and one does not remove the metal at all. Zirconion Oxide is very tough and will last about 10x longer than the usual fare.
The second strategy is to use a l-o-n-g (1 metre) glass plate. A short piece of glass is a waste of time. You will do 2-3 times as much sanding in one stroke with a long section. Contact glue the belts to the glass.
Thirdly, I lay the glass (on top of three layers of MDF) on the floor to sand. Basically, I want to get vertical effort. The last thing you want to do it push the plane as if you were sanding. This will creatre a banana shape, which is difficult to remove. Similarlly, watch the side-to-side movement. You can inadvertantly rock in a camber. Therefore, avoid holding the plane by the tote. Only hold and push over the central section to keep it flat. (Of course, all the parts are present with the blade retracted).
Regards from Perth
Derek
This thread sort of amazes me.
Is there nothing better to talk about within the realm of handtools than this?
I will say one thing, since this thread has sort of already tipped over into the sublimely ridiculous at several points: If some little angel that could see into the future came and tapped me on the shoulder and said: "Son, it is your destiny to flatten the soles of over 200 bench planes in the next few years. Know it, live it, love it,...a good portion of your time will consist of grey iron and sandpaper,...." I think I'd seriously consider buying an old floor sander and getting some of those zirconion oxide belts for it. I'd mount that bad boy upside down and rig up some kind of scissors-jack rig where I could mount the plane in there and jack it right down to the belt of the floor sander and move it back and forth. It would either be that or possibly grab that little angel sitting on my shoulder and twist his frickin' head off and forget about the 200 planes,...
Cheers, Ed
Ed,
Instead of complaining about this tread and content why not start the better discussion ????? Not send it back to the top......
Why has no one suggested emery cloth, which after all is intended for use on metal?
Just joking around, rb - no offense meant. Maybe one too many jolts of that Starbucks "Sumatra Extra Bold" coffee in the morning. I hope people paid you well to fix up those planes for them - doesn't seem like it would be a fun job after a while.
Take care, Ed
If I was well and not suffering for the failed back surgery I would most likely still be doing it..
It is a pretty dirty job and cast iron is one of the blackest metals but the most work comes in trying to keep screen names, real names, paypal account names and wifes check names all in order..
With a wire wheel most folks can clean up a plane pretty well.....
Thanks to all who gave me constructive comments on the issue of flattening a place sole.
I think my problem has been continuing the "banana". So I will adjust my style and see what happens.
Paige
I'd just find a machine shop and outsource that part of the job.
Ed,
Twisting the heads of little angels is probably A Sin, for which you will be punished by being sent to flatten an infinite number of banana-shaped planes that are also red hot and painted orange to signify the fact.
Then they give you the corkscrewed chisels to straighten with your teeth, at the same time....
Surely this plane-flattening issue thrills you as much as it does me? Only recently I flattened one. Happily it was already dead flat so it took a mere 4 passes over a 1200 diamond stone of Some Size to remove the tell lines I had drawn on it; and I was pleased.
Speaking of which, I might mention that diamond "stones", from coarse thru medium to fine, actually flatten metal things quite rapidly (in my experience). Of course, sufficiently large diamond stones are a bit costly - but they do last forever.
Lataxe, a little angel
Lataxe,
Since you are a little angel, perhaps you can answer a question for me. How many of you can dance on the edge of a mirror- sharpened plane blade? Guess it'd have to be a line dance. Or do you square dance on the end of a mortise chisel?
Do-si-do,
Ray
Ray
Since you are a little angel, perhaps you can answer a question for me. How many of you can dance on the edge of a mirror- sharpened plane blade? (Ray)
Little Angel Lataxe,
Checking your profile I see that we have more in common than just our admiration of A&C furniture, you are also a contemporary being only 2 years my senior.
Please do not take me wrong, but the thought of you (or me for that matter) in a tu-tu is the stuff nightmares are made from. Perhaps Ray might withdraw his question, being considerate of our already age-induced restless sleep, and replace it with something less suggestive.
Wife, where's my Excedrin PM?Rennie
A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward. Frank Lloyd Wright
Rennie,
I may post you a photo of me en tutu. You will marvel at my youthful mien, slender figure (it's in there somewhere) and elegant poise. Also, you may notice my halo and rose-coloured glasses...
Lataxe, fallen from grace, in fact
PS I heard Ray used to be a cross-dresser but is better-tempered now, even though its hard for him to get his socks on in the morning. The tights must be hell!
Lataxe,
Actually I was a cross-dresser once. Our church drapes the cross in the front of the sanctuary in black, from good Fri to Easter Sun. It fell my lot to help the wife with that chore when she was the worship committee chair for a time.
Socks, as you say, are getting more difficult for me as the years pass. My feet seem to be getting farther from the ends of my arms...And they're not tights. They are called support stockings, and they are for my circulation. The fishnet is just for ventilation these warm days. My story, and I'm sticking to it. By the way, just how are you aware of what I'm putting on in the morning, Lataxe you old voyeur?
Ray, feeling vaguely violated
Ray,
You ask, "How many of you can dance on the edge of a mirror- sharpened plane blade"?
At first there was one. Then there were two; then four; then eight; (ad infinitum).
Lataxe, a geometric series.
>Only recently I flattened one. Happily it was already dead flat <
Sir, if it was already flat before you started it doesn't really count as a qual, does it? I'm afraid I can't sign off that one. You shall have to do it again.
Before you go any further, I will send you a Millers Falls No. 9 (same size as a Stanley No. 4 smooth plane) that spent the best part of its last fifty years on a shelf in a barn getting periodically rained upon, investigated by insects, defecated upon by various live creatures, and apparently, used by humans as a handy projectile to be thrown into the rafters at targets of opportunity (bats, wasps nests, etc.). Ours is not to reason why but merely to observe the evidence.
Should you get that plane to the point that it will take a shaving and function once again (somewhat) as a smooth plane, you shall be allowed to proudly display the moniker: "Lataxe, Plane Fettler"
I would agree about the diamond stones.
Everyone seems to be mad about flattening their plane soles. I have several planes that I use to flatten glue lines, knock off edges, and the like, but I have never found a need to waste my time flattening the sole. If the sole is so bad that it has to be ground down, I question what the user has been doing with it in this day and age. What purpose could a flatter sole have that couldnt be gotten simply by cranking down the iron. I'm sorry for you purist out there, but I build a lot of furniture and a flatter sole just dosn't come into my little world! I'll craw back into my hole now.
Oldtool, Derek Cohen,
I would agree that this is a topic that people may tend to "overthink," like maybe, what wood to build a bench out of, or something,...but I don't know, I'm just an amatuer who loves to work with handtools and to learn new things.
I did buy a Stanley #18 knuckle joint block blane off ebay about three or four years ago that had a chip out of the moveable toe piece that adjusts the width of the mouth. That chip was maybe 1/2 mm deep and about the size of a fingernail, and it was just in front of the mouth of the plane, in the center. That DID affect performance, in that no matter how sharp the blade was, the plane just wouldn't seem to work right.
I resolved to lap the entire sole down to the point where this "chip" or depression was "blended out" and disappeared.
Took forever. A vision of eternity. It took several days and a lot of sandpaper to even make any discernable progress. A lot of material to remove.
Finally I got there. It was worth at as that plane works great - a fantastic block plane and I'll never need to buy another.
Finding a machine shop to surface grind is looking good to me if I ever need to do that again, though.
Well, here is my advice on getting a flat-soled plane. (It is irrefutable advice, by the bye):
1) Don't buy an old plane to fettle - you will get bored.
2) Don't buy a cheap plane to fettle - you will get bored and frustrated when it still won't work properly.
3) Don't buy a good quality modern plane - it will work perfectly and you will be annoyed because you don't need to fettle it. And they are as common as muck, tha knows (everyone's got an LN these days).
4) Don't go mad and buy a Holtey - you will go bankrupt and the punishment for even thinking it needs fettling is Severe In The Extreme (Plato's ghost comes).
5) Buy a Marcou - it is functionally perfect and beautiful; any redundant fettling thoughts will be overwhelmed by the sheer sensuality of fondling it with all 8 sense organs, just before you plane the thinnest, longest shaving you ever made. It is A Bargain (and An Investment).
Lataxe, an unashamed Marcou fan
Talking about Marcou...
Do you know about his new models?
Here are some pics. And more info on his web site that I maintain.Wiktor
Wiktor,
Unfortunately I am all too familiar with those pictures on your website. Even now they are drawing the money from my pocket!
On the other hand, what else is money for, if not to indulge utterly in beautiful and functional objects such as The Marcous? Also, I know that they are of Holtey quality in all but the excessive final polish.
One day, they will become "an investment", causing the daughters to dig up my coffin to get them, for I will have had them buried with me.
Lataxe, Victim of Engineering Excellence.
Lat,
"One day, they will become "an investment", causing the daughters to dig up my coffin to get them, for I will have had them buried with me."
Order your Titanium models now, no need to worry about rust or the need to mummify.
In the meantime I am suitably flattered, and encourage you to crusade bravely on, converting the masses out there into true believers.Philip Marcou
Philip,
There is no need for mere "belief" when one has experienced The Plane. It's then a matter of evidence rather then faith, you see. (No contest).
Lataxe
Ed
I agree, 200 iron soles is far too much to bear. That definitely sounds rather masochistic. If one was seeking advice from myself in this respect, I would be forced to wear my best leather outfit (with the chrome studded dog collar) and demonstrate that a multitude of lashes is more fun.
Personally I prefer using the planes on wood than using them on sandpaper. It is what they were designed for. However, there is no denying that a brief encounter - disciplining if you will - with sandpaper can increase the likelihood of their later towing the line.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Is the surface of the glass flat? Your thin glass has little rigidity so its flatness depends a lot on what it's glued to. Is the sandpaper intended for metal? Have you measured how far out the plane is? Something is wrong with your tools or your method, or the plane is too far gone to be worthwhile.
Pete
M,
If you rubbed two cheap diamond stones together, face-to-face, of the same grit, would they both end up dead flat and therefore worth more?
Only Richard Fenyman would be able to work it out and he has left us for Infinity.
Lataxe, a mental experimenter.
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