Replies

1. 
   MikeHennessy | Oct 06, 2006 02:48pm | #1

   Far be it from me from talking anyone out of buying a new tool, especially a nice LN plane, but your Stanley probably isn't hopeless. You say you've tried various grits of sandpaper -- that is possibly a problem. You need to start with coarse sandpaper mounted to a flat surface such as glass or a granite slab. Move the plane back and forth and in a figure 8 pattern until you have a nice, even scratch pattern over the entire sole. If there are any portions of the sole that is not evenly scratched, keep going. Don't rock the plane to try to "cheat" an even scratch pattern. That will just make the condition worse and leave you with a curved sole. It will do no good to move to a higher grit until you get that even scratch pattern. It'll take a while, depending on how bad the sole is. The good news is that, once you have developed an even scratch pattern and you can move to a higher grit (where the process is repeated), each successive round will go quicker since the sole has been flattened by the first round.

   It may take a few hours for the first grit, but you can spread that over days or weeks, depending on your schedule. I have also found that I prefer the black sandpaper which I use with a bit of oil to keep the gunk floating away. It seems to cut faster & longer as well.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

1. 
   BruceS | Oct 06, 2006 05:19pm | #3

   Heres a true story that will make you cringe,  Yesterday I sold some 6X48  50 grit belts to a fellow.   I asked if he used the gum rubber erasers to keep the belts clean,  No says the customer,  I use them to flatted the soles of Old Stanleys.  Not this guy, I start with 220 on a piece of float glass which gives me a light haze on the high spots and then decide which way to go from there as to paper grit, More or less aggressive.  I would rather exert all that energy plaining wood than plaining silicon carbide.Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S. 

    

2. 
   PJohn | Oct 06, 2006 04:27pm | #2

   Hi, Saw Dust -

   Mike's absolutely right - it takes time and a single coarse grit (220 or even 120 if it's a bad case.) I've spent hours on a single plane and agree that once it's flat, the going gets very easy and fast. Probable grit progression: 120, 220, 340, 400, 600 The work's all in the 120. Did I mention time? How about relentless boredom-but-ya-gotta-pay-attention?

   When you can see that you're almost there with 120, switch to 220, etc. - there's no point in having to remove more iron than necessary just to get rid of scratch marks. I wouldn't go much better than 400, although 600 will yield a finer shine - er, glow - er, well, not mirror-like but extraordinarily pleasing to see and slick against the the work surface. Slick is good because it will require percebtibly less force and help to ensure greater control of the plane as you work. Finer than that and you're just wasting elbow grease - it ain't gonna stay super-purty forever.

   Relax - cast iron will indeed creep under strain, but this isn't a tuneup that's needed often. Once done, it will be good for most of your lifetime. You will not be able to find a new or antique plane that doesn't require the effort - L/N's and Veritas are good, but will also eventually need it - such is the nature of the material. I've not handled a new Clifton and can't comment but to say that it will eventually come to pass - laws of physics demand it.

   The "black sandpaper" is silicon-carbide grit wet-or-dry, the same as used for scary-sharp blade sharpening (and automotive finishing.) See hardware store or auto paint supply. Float glass has become common everywhere - don't get tricked into paying a ton for it. Confirm with your dealer that he does indeed stock float glass (it's the glass manufacturing process whereby the liquid glass is actually floated on a bath of molten tin, NOT rolled), and get a piece of 3/8" or 1/2" at least 12" x 12". (My three are 12x12, 12x18, and 12x30 for sharpening or for lapping even a #8 plane.) I place a single layer of heavy plastic on my ground tablesaw extension and lay the glass on that. Pretty flat against pretty flat keeps it all pretty much in line.

   My glass has had the 8 edge corners slightly sanded full-length at glass shop - not showroom pretty, but just enough to prevent chipping under light impact (it happens.) Then the four flat corners are more heavily rounded in all aspects as they'll chip off big pieces in a hurry if the stress-risers aren't rounded over. I use either a bunch of stick-on gummy spots (about 3"-4" on center) or a sheet of self-adhesive cork (Home Depot) to cushion and protect the glass underside. I prefer the cork, because glass will bend under stress. If using cork, be sure the glass is dead clean and has no lint on its surface. Work in clean area so that exposed cork adhesive side can't pick up debris before it goes down. Trim with razor knife *after* it's on.

   You can use water instead of light oil - it's less messy, but requires that you pay attention to rust prevention on remaining surfaces, including your saw table extension if that's your base (wax it well beforehand, and get the plactic off when you're done just in case a little water gets through a pinhole.) Soak the paper in warm water for 30 minutes, and it will plaster itself to the glass as though glued. When you stop for the day, coat the newly-exposed cast iron with a heavy coat of hard paste wax or you'll quicky acquire rust damage.

   The blade should be fully retracted but clamped tightly enough so as to impose normal working strain during lapping.

   Be *very* aware of pressure distribution as you go. It's easy to accidentally put heavy pressure on the forward end during the forward stroke, and the reverse in opposite direction. That will most certainly yield a rounded sole and uncontrollable cutting. To elaborate more (it's important) - heavier fore and then aft pressure as you stroke back & forth more or less "cheats" the center, which therefore has less ground off, and which therfore eventually winds up high - - a sole distinctly rounded back to front. You have to train your arm and hands to be virtually machine-like to ensure even pressure and even pressure distribution on every stroke. Don't hold the toe or knob - that will exaggerate pressure distribution errors. Hold only available cast iron, and use brain power to get your fingers, wrists, hands and arms to evenly distribute pressure.

   Patience - it'll come to you and become "auto-pilot" with practice.

   Be aware also that left-right pressure variation can yield rounding across the sole's width. If you consistently keep pressure to one side, then that side will grind away more and throw the sole out of true with the sides. You're taking the place of a grinding machine, which has no human frailties. You can also cheat and take it to a machine shop for fine grinding, but it will be expensive, especially if all that top iron is in place during grinding.

   The sole's front and trailing edges will wind up sharp, and are likely to catch the wood as the plane moves. Relieve the last fraction of an inch at each end by simply rounding them - lift the trailing end gradually on each stroke until the width's edge is slightly rounded so as to climb over raised grain and other wood surface problems. Trickier with rounded ends, but easy once you get the hang of it. (Filing is cheating, and will create rough spots guaranteed to catch - do it the hard way and get it right.) The back end isn't likely to catch wood during work, but rounding can lessen its impact as an accidental weapon of destruction. Ditto the lengthwise edges.

   The sides are probably not true either, and will similarly benefit from lapping. As you lap the sole, use a GOOD machinist's square to check relationship with both sides - try to keep deviation in balance between the two sides (or unchanged from original condition) as you work down the sole. That keeps the work to be done on the sides relatively constant and maintains near-square relationship.

   When you fettle the sides -- straight and flat, parallel to one another, and dead square to the sole -- again be keenly aware of pressure variation. You can true an out-of-square condition simply by consisently and constantly applying more pressure against the high area while ensuring that the entire surface remains firmly in contact with the abrasive. Uhhh - that's more or less "firmly in contact and more firmly in contact but in contact all over", if you catch my drift.

   When it's done, there will be potentially painful sharp edges everywhere. Round them judiciously - don't damage the flats!

   Check often and make corrections as you go. Be vigilant in looking for evidence of unwanted rounding. If you've sensitive hands and good control, you can teach yourself to do this black art in the course of fettling a single plane and do no damage along the way.

   See if you can find the F/W issue with David Charlesworth's instructions on fettling. Sounds fussy, but I can assure you that the process will turn a "hunk o' arn" into a responsive and fun-to-use tool. (It includes not only truing the sole and sides, but attention to mouth, chipbreaker, and lever cap.) Add a heavy-duty blade and chipbreaker (Hock) made scary-sharp, and you'll have created a 100-year dreadnought that's a joy to use.

   Fergit the nay-sayers. If you get your tools in tune, there's not much work required to keep them there, and they'll significantly elevate your practice of wood butcherin'. Similarly, fergit the Chicken Little stuff about sharpening. Use yer head. Scary sharp to 0.5 microns or less is an interesting exercise, but a waste of time in most cases. If you know how, there will be scattered instances of delicate hand work in which super-dooper-scary-CickenLittle-sharp will be useful - otherwise stopping at 1500 (or maybe 2000 or 2500) will be more than sufficient.

   **Now** do you see why I don't lend my planes .. ???

   Best of luck to ya,

   ---John

3. 
   bugbear | Oct 06, 2006 06:49pm | #4

   I'm in a minority, but I have evidence.

   Here's how I think it should be done;
   I claim this method is not only accurate, but fast.

   http://www.geocities.com/plybench/flatten.html

   BugBear

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/6/2006 11:50 am ET by bugbear

1. 
   highfigh | Oct 06, 2006 07:16pm | #6

   BTW, using rubber to remove dust from sanding belts also removes some of the grit, so don't expect it to be the same as a new sheet or belt.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   user-162978 | Oct 06, 2006 10:28pm | #7

   We do a lot of plane sole flattening.

   The longer the plane the coarser the grit needed to remove significant amounts of metal.

   Downward force is limited, force divided by area = pressure.  Pressured is needed.

   On 5 1/2 we often need 60 grit.

   Try 100 grit and be prepared to change to 80, or 60 if needed.

   Zirconia alumina, (blue) stays sharp longer than AlOx.

   AlOx or SiC will need replacing surprisingly often.

   David Charlesworth

    

1. 
   highfigh | Oct 06, 2006 11:15pm | #8

   I'm a pretty big guy so pressure isn't really much of an issue and it's a good workout. I used 80 grit on my first #7 (high-knob) and my #4. The #7 has a bit of a cavity ahead of the mouth and I haven't taken the time to finish flattening it. My low-knob #7 it ridiculously flat and square with the original grinding marks still visible on the sole and the sides. I'm not sure why it wasn't used much-maybe it was too much work or the owner didn't know how to sharpen/hone the iron. I had posted in another thread about the #6C having problems with the frog not retracting the iron enough to clear the sole but I haven't needed it so I'll tackle that when the snow flies.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   bugbear | Oct 09, 2006 11:41am | #10

   I'm a pretty big guy so pressure isn't really much of an issue and it's a good workout.

   Yeah - trouble is, all that pressure has a nasty habit of distorting your flat reference surface.

   2 of the benefits of my print/cut approach are:

   * reference is used under very light loads

   * metal removal is localised, so the low pressure on large planes problem doesn't arise.

   BugBear

4. 
   highfigh | Oct 06, 2006 07:14pm | #5

   First of all, it doesn't need to be absolutely flat. It also doesn't need to be absolutely smooth. 220 grit will take forever if that's the grit you started with. I have a #4 that I started with 80 grit, then went to emery cloth, 320, 600. I checked it with a straightedge and it's flat from the toe, back past the mouth and through the center area to the heel. The edges aren't quite there but they're within a few thousandths. It's flatter than it ever was before I bought it and it had seen a lot of use. It has the original iron and cuts hard maple very nicely. lasting longer than I heard it would, based on what I had read about the old planes. I bought a workbench from a friend who bought a roomfull at a tech school auction and after sanding the drawer faces, I decided that planing them would be a lot faster. It was. A lot better results than I though I would get and the whole bench is maple, too. I planed just about every surface on it. I'll have to post a photo of it.

   The point is, it's a tool for working wood, which isn't the most stable material, anyway. It doesn't need to be set to the tolerances needed for metal working. 80 grit on a flat surface will speed up the process considerably and switching to emery cloth is a good idea when you need to even it out- it's made specifically for metal, anyway.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
5. 
   CStanford | Oct 06, 2006 11:35pm | #9

   Clamp a belt sander upside down in a vise with a fresh 60 to 100 grit belt installed.

   Set the plane sole down across the moving belt and sand until the sole is very slightly CONCAVE from end to end (don't let the toe or heel of the plane contact the belt).  Have your straightedge handy.  Sand until you achieve slight concavity (glint of light between the sold and the straightedge in the middle 80% of the plane's sole.) 

   Then you can hand lap it flat all the way along the sole in short order with 60 grit Norton 3x paper on glass. 

   When you think you're there, try to plane with it.  If it takes a good shaving then stop.  You're done. 

   It's the sole that's shaped like a banana (humped in the middle) that's hard to flatten as it requires somewhat of a balancing act combined with an extremely light touch that will make the process take forever.

   Concavity is your friend in just about everything having to do with woodworking - jointing edges, flattening broad surfaces, etc.  I'd almost go so far as to say that at points in many processes concavity is the 'secret' of woodworking.  Convexity will confound you at every turn - in stock preparation, joinery, just about everything. 

   Sometimes a plane sole is too far gone to fool with unless you have nothing but time on  your hands.  In that case, rob it for parts and buy another vintage unit.

   Buying L-N is never a bad idea.  There's a lot to be said for a tool you can put to work immediately if your intention is to build and not make a hobby out of tool restoration.

    

    

    

6. 
   ObeliskToucher | Oct 16, 2006 06:23pm | #11

   I'm in the later stages of the flattening process on a #4 and #5C using a piece of plate glass.

   I first tried the "90x SiC grit + oil on a sheet of plastic" approach that I've seen described in so many articles. Not only did it seem like I wasn't making much progress, it was such a mess that I gave up on it pretty quickly.

   I finally settled on 220x wet/dry sandpaper and elbow grease and, although it's taken some time, the #4 is just about ready to climb the grit ladder to some 1500x, while the 5C is nearly done. The #4 still has a small depressed area midway between the mouth and tail that I'm leaving there to remind me what it *used* to look like, but other than that it's flat and smooth.

   Stick with it -- it's worth the effort!

7. 
   9619 | Oct 16, 2006 06:38pm | #12

   Saw Dust,

   When a person asks, "Should I do A or B?", it is not possible to answer the question without knowing what the rest of the story is. An old tool collector would stick with the old tool. Someone who has the old plane but not the money to buy a new plane will stick with the old plane, due to necessity. As you can see from the responses to you, if you are an engineer who delights in figuring ways to solve metalworking problems, then stick to the plane you have.

   If you have the money, it makes "monetary" sense to buy all of the LN planes you want. Look on EBay. You can use the LN plane or saw or chisels for as long as you want, and then sell them for just about what you put into them.

   So if you can afford it, then get the LN. Use the LN, and work on your Stanley #4 at your liesure. After you have the Stanley in great shape, do a head to head comparison of which pleases you more. If it is the Stanley, just sell the LN on EBay and you are only out a few bucks, and you had a lot of fun. If you like the LN better, then just keep them both, or sell the Stanley. However, after all of the work you put into it, you may not get the equivalent of minimum wage on your labor.

   Spend the money. LNs are better than cash or travelers checks. You can use them, and then get your money back when you sell them.

   Enjoy,
   Mel

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   user-195576 | Oct 16, 2006 06:48pm | #13

   Great answer!  My birthday is around the corner and with Christmas around the next corner . . . . I guess I know what Santa can put in my stocking(s).

    

   Finishing the Stanley at my leisure sounds sensible.  I'd rather be showing off finished furniture projects.  Can't show off a "squared and flattened" plane to anyone who will understand what I'm talking about.

    

    

1. 
   mwenz | Oct 16, 2006 07:32pm | #14

   Charles Stanford:There's a lot to be said for a tool you can put to work immediately if your intention is to build and not make a hobby out of tool restoration.

   Saw Dust:Finishing the Stanley at my leisure sounds sensible.  I'd rather be showing off finished furniture projects.  Can't show off a "squared and flattened" plane to anyone who will understand what I'm talking about.

   Both of these are excellent statements for the person intending to use planes/tools as an ends to a means. There's a lot to be said of sweat-equity in restoring/tuning a plane to usability. Most of it is involves the sweat and that too can be a reward--I know it is for me.

   But I also have the luxury of having been at this for some time: I have enough tools to do work. When I get a tool which needs to be worked on to be usable, it sits until a rainy weekend afternoon when I would rather be doing something in the shop, but don't wish to do what I do for a day job.

   For something like flattening a plane sole, I use the method Charles does. Quick on a belt sander. I do follow up with fine grits. But I also have had one or two planes which I wished to see if I could scrape flat, and it works, too. Does make them flatter. For an infill, something which does not flex in use, it is the best method for me as I am use to scraping things flat. But if it is get 'er done, the belt sander and a flat surface which to use follow-up grits it is.

   Take care, Mike

2. 
   9619 | Oct 16, 2006 08:00pm | #15

   Mr. Dust,You, like all of us, have far more things that we would like to do than there is time to do them. Fixing up an old tool is very satisfying, and it is a nice break from turning out furniture. I just fixed up an old heavy Delta tenoning jig. It was satisfying and fun. Then it was fun to make a cabinet for which the tenons were cut with the jig. Luckily, this is a hobby for me. If I were in it for the money, I'd work things a lot differently. For example, I probably would not have so much time to spend on Knots.It's hard for me to keep my woodworking plate from becoming too full. Then I feel pressure. I enjoy it more when things are more leisurely.Have fun with the LN plane that you will get. Then you can work on the Stanley when the mood strikes. Enjoy,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

3. 
   ObeliskToucher | Oct 17, 2006 06:01pm | #17

   Finishing the Stanley at my leisure sounds sensible.  I'd rather be showing off finished furniture projects.  Can't show off a "squared and flattened" plane to anyone who will understand what I'm talking about.

   I don't know about that -- I showed my wife the #5C yesterday, and she smiled and made appreciative noises...

   I finished lapping my Stanley #4 last night, and decided to try it out for a few strokes this morning on some hard maple this morning before I went to work using a "straight-from-the-store" (unhoned) Hock blade and breaker.  A half-hour later, I was both late for work and the happy owner of lots of new, paper-thin maple shavings and a very smooth board...

    

8. 
   BigK | Oct 17, 2006 12:04pm | #16

   Nothing against fettling a plane by hand, I have tuned up several planes this way. However if a plane is in real bad shape, or you just don't want to waste you precious shop time sanding cast iron then the machine shop route is quite viable. While I can't seem to recall the exact name for the correct machine that you are looking for if you call around looking for a lapping machine you should be able to locate what you are looking for. I have had 2 planes lapped. Each one cost me $35 for an hour of lapping and the results are nothing short of impressive. Both times I sat there and shot the bull with the guys while they did the deed, a good time was had by all. I thought that the charge was more than reasonable considering the alternative.