Replies

1. 
   Peter36 | Feb 17, 2005 03:41am | #1

   Hi Kenny. Your questions are really based upon the quality of the flatness and the coarseness of the machining done by the manufacturer. I recently received a 5 piece set of mortise chisels made by Lie-Nielsen. They are very flat and have 400 grit factory marks on them. I had all 5 to a mirror polish in about 1/2 hour. I begin on a 1000 grit stone and flatten until ALL of the manufacturers marks are gone off the bottom 2" or so. When this is done move on to the 4000 grit and polish until ALL of the 1000 marks are gone. Lastly move to the 8000 stone and polish until ALL of the 4000 marks are gone. Between grits wipe the tool clean to remove coarser grits. ALL of the flattening is done on the 1000 stone or the 220 if the tool is really bad. The other stones are just to polish. When you have finished you should be able to see a reflection of a straight line in the back of the tool with no distortion. That is how you know it is flat. My stones are Nortons and on my Lie-Nielsens I get close to a mirror polish but with my cheap chisels I can achieve a mirror polish. Go figure.    Good luck     Peter

1. 
   kenney66 | Feb 18, 2005 05:44pm | #6

   Peter, I took a class last night on sharpening.  What the instructor used was "White Gold" and a leather strop.  It seemed to work good.  So now I am confused again.  It seems the more I learn the more I do not know.  The instructor said that I did not need to flatten the chisel to a mirror finish just create a burr with a stone initially then just use the "White Gold" and the strop to sharpen the tool from that point goign further.  Any comments or thoughts on his technique.  It sounds easy and was easy to execute but the cynic in me makes me somewhat skeptical. 

   Kenney

1. 
   Peter36 | Feb 19, 2005 05:32am | #7

   Hi again Kenney. Well there is always the argument of how sharp is sharp enough. Some people buy a Lie-Nielsen plane that comes from the factory sharpened at 400 grit and they think it is awesome. Personally I sharpen to 8000 grit, but in either case they will both cut wood. So back to your chisels. On a magnified scale the intersecting faces of a chisel or plane blade would look like a plowed field. If you try and strop the back then you are only polishing the peaks of the ploughed field. Same thing if you try to only strop the bevel without honing on some type of courser stone. You need to take the high spots down to a flat surface. Even if a chisel has a flat back you still need to go through successive grits to create as small a troughs as possible. This could be accomplished with only a 8000 grit stone but it would take a very long time. Imagine a piece of wood sanded at 40 grit and you want to sand it to 400 grit. You would not jump right to the 400 because it would take you all day. If you put a wire edge on the chisel with a stone and then strop to remove it, you still have a rough back side. A sharp edge is the meeting point of 2 edges not just one highly polished edge. I suppose that if the instructor said that you only needed to strop the front and do nothing to the back of the chisel that he is one of the people that feel it is sharp enough. When I get a new chisel I go through 1000 4000 and 8000 grit on the back. Then I establish an wire edge with the 1000 on the bevel and then switch to the 8000 stone and hone a microbevel, flip the chisel over and remove the wire on the 8000. That is all I do. When I resharpen it is simply re-establish the edge on the 1000 creating a burr, switch to the 8000 and make a microbevel. Flip the chisel and remove the burr. Hope this helps you.    Peter

2. 
   Glaucon | Feb 17, 2005 04:33pm | #2

   I agree with Peter.  My  LN chisels were fairly tuned out of the box, and required only minor honing- LN does not recommend hollow grinding them, BTW.  Other chisels (Marples, e.g.) can require a fair amount of work.  Once you invest the time, you will find that future sessions are short and that your joinery will go much more easily.

   One thing to keep in mind is that your stones should be flat as well, waterstones will tend to dish after use.  You can true them up on float glass or flat granite using oxide powder (Lee Valley sells kits for this purpose).  Check them with a straight edge or try square from time to time.

   Good luck,

   Glaucon

1. 
   Peter36 | Feb 18, 2005 01:15am | #3

   Hi Glaucon. I have my third set of L-N chisels now and none of them offer any advice against hollow grinding. I see no reason not to hollow grind, did you recieve a reason?  Thank you   Peter

1. 
   Glaucon | Feb 18, 2005 02:12am | #4

   Peter,

   As I said, I typically hollow grind my chisels.  I have a set of old Marple Blues I hollow ground years ago and I've used them for everything from setting hinges to mortising.  I needed something a bit finer for cutting dovetails, and I heard about LN's.  I like their planes and found their approach to tool making to be both well thought out and well executed.  I had heard though that  they were backed up, so I called them to ask how long the waiting list was.  They reassured me that their production had caught up, and I asked in passing about honing- which is when their rep in Maine told me that they do not recommend it- don't recall the reason.

   BTW, the last plane I bought from them did not come with a care insert.  I emailed them to ask what angle they favored for the primary and secondary bevels, and got a very nice personal reply, specifying the angles -and signed Thomas Lie-Nielsen.  I guess if Tom is making the calls about honing and sharpening, that's good enough for me...

   You could email them directly, I'm sure you'd get a thoughtful reply.

    

   Glaucon

1. 
   Peter36 | Feb 18, 2005 02:22am | #5

   I hollow grind every 5-7 sharpenings. I will email L-N and ask them why not.              Peter

3. 
   alanplanesaw | Feb 21, 2005 02:16am | #8

   There are several ways/tools to sharpen.  Oil stones, water stones, and "sand" paper, commonly called the Scarey Sharp system -- so sharp it is scarey.

   Oil stones are slow.  Waterstones are faster.  But, you have to make sure you flatten them regularly based on the use you are giving them.  They will begin to have a depression in the center.  Waterstones are great as long as you keep them perfectly flat.

   Using sandpaper (3M micron paper, Highland Hardware and other places) on a thick piece of float glass (or something comparably flat) is fantastic.   And, it is much cheaper than waterstones.

   I have a Tormek to sharpen old used plane irons and chisels.  This works great because I can make sure I get whatever I am sharpening to the desired angle and square across the blade.

   Then, although I have a full set of waterstones, I have been using 3M micron paper (60, 40, etc. down to 15) for honing.  Polishing the back of the cutter just like a mirror, then the cutting angle.   You can also pick up good quality wet or dry sandpaper at the auto parts store that will go up to 2,000 to 4,000 grit. 

   I think it is good to know 2 or 3 different systems for sharpening so you can make an informed decision however you decide to sharpen things.  And, you may have one preference for chisels, another for planes, etc.

   Whatever -- have fun!

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   kenney66 | Feb 21, 2005 08:33pm | #9

   Alan, thanks a lot.  I flattened all of my stones, the 220 grit was well out of shape as i was flattening 8 different chisels.  I have been in the process of flattening all the backs and things have been slow and steady.  How important is it to make the entire back of the chisel a mirror finish?  Can I get a real sharp edge if only the first inch or two is a mirror finish?  Thanks in advance.

   Kenney

    

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Feb 22, 2005 01:14am | #10

   You got it.  Only a half inch to 1 inch is critical.  And, even more "technical" only the cutting edge.  But, if you go ahead and flatten an inch or so, you will be set for future sharpenings.

   Alan - planesaw