Folks, I am considering a new thread,possibly with the title “Is that a fatal flaw?”
This is what is prompting me-if you look at the pics (amateur photography i.e me), you should see two smooth ‘knots’. The small one is about 3/8′ diameter, whilst the other is about 3/4″.I say”smooth” because there were two genuine knot holes there, I did not want to junk the timber, so I transplanted some good timber, suitably shaped to look like “healthy” knots.
A person has said that this is an unacceptable flaw, in spite of the fact that the grain of the implant matches, and if you close your eyes and run your fingers over the area you can’t feel any difference in texture.
What is the verdict?
Philip Marcou
Replies
Philip, not a flaw at all unless you would call occluded biscupids or some other difficult to understand facial feature on a beautiful visage a flaw-then of course the flaw is in the perceiver not the perceived. I like it....... aloha, mike
Philip,
Your repairs are beautifully, exquisitely done, and I would banish any client who said otherwise. That said, they are still repairs. If the piece was for me, I would have preferred you to have left the knots intact in the first place.
Bottom line - the customer is the only reference that means anything. If I misjudge a client, an impartial jury of peers will not save me.
best,
DR
That person falls into the .000001 percent of people that will gripe at anything. I think you did a great job at saving a beautiful piece of lumber. Would the old masters care to reveal where they put their fixes on their works? This person just can't be pleased.
I would say not a flaw....but I'm not the client, and if it is the client who is complaining.....that's not good.
I have some manuals that have photos of what is considerd a flaw, and what is considered a 'characteristic', in hardwoods (but not to hand today)....the ones I'm thinkig of are published by the America Hardwood Export Council (or something like that), and the hardwood plywood association. Something like that might help your arguement if you can find it.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
The "fix" is imperceptible in the pictures. It's too bad some folks don't marvel at the natural characteristics that add so much interest to a piece of work. Your excellent craftsmanship is evident and the grain characteristics compliment the wood and work. I think the knot and the grain pattern elevate the piece from the mundane. If I want a piece of work to look like plastic, I'll buy plastic. One woodworker I know, uses clear casting resin to fill large missing knots. They look like they are filled with liquid glass and everyone has to touch them. Look at the work of George Nakashima and his family, the pieces just wouldn't be the same if the lumber was flawless. I often run into clients that expect every piece of lumber in a set of kitchen cabinets to be virtually identical. How boring! Just like some customers.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I guess I'd be called a wood "purist," (e.g. - I never use stain, prefer air-dried over kild dried, etc.) And I don't consider knots as "defects," unluss they're just plain ugly knots with big voids, etc. - that's what wood looks like!
But the majority of people (customers) have grown accustomed to the "homogenized" look of kiln dried lumber - uniform and free of "defects" such as knots. Many prefer the look of wood that appears that it has been manufactured from plastic to exacting, bland specs. All this is of great advantage to lumber reatilers who do not want people complaining or sorting thru piles of lumber to find exact color matches.
If there's any negative aspect to the knot you've shown it's that it's the only one in the top of thje piece - that makes it jump out. I think one has to go one way or the other with knots - leave them all in for the "natural" look, or exclude them all for the "uniform" look.
Philip
Personally, I like your solution. If the original knots were rotted and falling out, then you did an excellent job of using a knot "dutchman" to make a fine repair. The color is a great match, and it looks great.
This may have been stated already, as I haven't read all the posts, but I'll give my 2 cents anyway. In my business, I talk to between 3000 and 4000 customers every single year. After 20 years, I pride myself in being able to spot the occassional idiot who is unsatisfiable, regardless of the quality of the work. Losing their business is an awful lot like losing cancer. You'll be much happier in the long run without it! I have stopped in the middle of a presentation several times a year, and kindly let the customer know that I don't wish to work for them ( sometimes not so kindly!).
Great looking piece, by the way.
Jeff
I find knots and natural edges bring much character to a piece of work, and I include them whenever I can. A dutchman repair, however, draws the eye to the repaired spot but does not give the reward of finding a natural defect. I would have left the knot alone, adding clear epoxy if there was any hole in it.
The repair, though well executed, looks out of place on this top. The photos don't really show what you have (try photographing with indirect lighting and no flash), so I won't say yes or no to this particular piece. If a customer says no, I would listen to them and not feel that it is their fault for being too picky. If the repair were larger, say one of those 2" footballs you see in cheaper grade plywood, you wouldn't be asking the question--you know it would look wrong.
Repairs need to be imperceptible to the casual observer--only natural defects or ornamentation should draw the eye.
philip,
That's a nice repair. Still, it's a repair, and if your customer is the type who would not want even a tight unrepaired knot in a top, then that's two strikes against you. Some folks see only "flaws" where others find interesting grain, or "character".
I've always (30 yrs now) operated under the assumtion that "the customer is always right" even when I totally disagree with him/her. That means, in this case, I'd either replace the top or the whole piece, or return the client's deposit with an apology that I don't think I can do the job to the client's satisfaction. Which alternative would depend on the "vibe" I'm getting from the client. As others here have pointed out, some folks are impossible to please, and those are the ones to back away from, politely. I try to keep in mind that an unhappy client will talk as much (maybe more) about their experience dealing with you, as those that are well pleased.
It is interesting to consider that folks will ooh and ahh over an antique with obvious flaws in material and construction, and then turn up their noses at a new piece with even minor deviation from perfection.
Regards,
Ray
Phillip;
Your work is "flawless".
30 years ago, I rebuilt an entire wall of cabinets because the customer did not like having a knot in the face frame. Last time I worked for him, maybe good for both of us. Some people cannot be satisfied.
Thanks Des. Iam going to start a new thread one of these days, called "Ridiculous things customers have tried to get us to do"-hope fully it has not come up in the past.Philip Marcou
Philip -
I'll jump the gun with my favorite story about absurd customer requests - and this wasn't even a customer!!! A few years ago, we did a lot of remodeling to our late 70's era house. We wanted a pocket door in the master bathroom and SWMBO just couldn't understand that the wallpaper had to go when I opened up the wall for the pocket door. Nothing I could say convinced her. It wasn't until I demo'ed the shower wall and showed her that I HAD to take down the drywall (with the wallpaper on it) to get in the new header and pocket door frame. She still wasn't real happy, but her desire for the pocket door was greater than her love of the wallpaper. - lol
Philip,
As carefully done as the patches are, they are still visible repairs done, from the purchaser's point of view, to save you the cost of finding better boards for the top of the piece. I would never have done what you did without clearing it first with the client.
I don't think the client is being unreasonable to expect a custom piece of furniture to have good unblemished wood in the most visible part of the case. If you had to keep the cost of the materials down to please the client, you should have explained to him that knots would be visible or would be filled in with patches.
John W.
John, those are not patches, they are transplants, without which the patient would have been tragic history :-D.
You will chuckle when you see my explanation of how this all came up.Philip Marcou
Beautiful work, a really nice job.....can't see any reason they'd complain.....
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
it's a seamless fix far as I can tell...more over, it shows your dedication to quality and makes for an interesting and impressive footnote to the project.
Can I ask what you used for a finish? it looks great!
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
I believe in customer service.....but I've also been serviced by a customer or two, if you know what I mean. Working with wood means fixing the occasional imperfection.....the more interesting the wood, the more likely you'll have to deal wth something. That's life; I'm not going to consult with a client on something that's a normal part of the job.....in this case, if I had a finite supply of wide, intersting wood like you used here, I would do what I assume you did: put the most interesting pieces where they should be, and deal with the imperfections. That's professional, in my view.
So how's the voting going? I'm voting again, so put me down for two 'not a flaw's.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Your photos do not reveal a whole lot. Too much glare and removed from the knots in question. If I were to really judge, I'd need to see the piece in person. Only then will the true nature of the wood's color, texture, etc. be revealed. The person who is calling this a flaw has, I suspect, seen this in person. He/She is perhaps seeing something that we cannot perceive in the photos. Are you sure that you are not seeing the same thing?There are really two seperate, tho related, question here. The first is; Can the repair be noticed as being different than natural? And the second: Is this difference a "flaw?"
I think that only those in the position to actually see and feel the piece can answer either question with any degree of meaning. We can all debate "What is a flaw?" endlessly, but not your situation in particular.I find it interesting that nearly all prior posts to mine have assumed that youv'e produced this piece for a paying client. Also, some have assumed that the client has been the one to voice the concerns. I am not assuming this situation at all. It has been my own experience that clients seldom notice what I consider to be less than perfect. However, my pal who shares the building here, has a way of "noticing" anything that I'm trying to ignore. And of course there is myself. I cannot hide from my own pointing finger (especially at night while trying to sleep) saying "Hey, that isn't right! Fix it or replace it!"
Hello Sapwood,
Thanks for your interest.
I sincerely believe that even customers with some knowledge of timber characteristics would not positively identify a repair. Certainly so far nobody has even "gone for another feel"-I watch customers-sometimes one can learn more from what they don't say.
Your last paragraph says a lot and your assumption is correct.Over the years I have developed my own modus operandi-simply I AM the first customer and if I accept the piece as equal or above my standards that is the final test. Any "activities" such as knot concealment etc are pointed out , and if I judge that there is dis-enchantment I make another plan. So far I have not had that experience.Philip Marcou
Only then will the true nature of the wood's color, texture, etc. be revealed.YEP! You would have to marry her!
Adrian, thanks for your votes of confidence.You have also hit the nail on the head about a finite quantity of timber-no chance of any more of it, and I did not bring much at all.
Any prospective buyer for that piece will examine it carefully, and I doubt very much if the implants would be noticed..But I would point it out all the same.Philip Marcou
Edited 8/25/2005 5:09 am ET by philip
Philip,
If you believe that your treatment of this "flaw" is appropriate and enhances the beauty and harmony of the top, why would you point out this particular aspect to a potential customer? Do you also draw attention to other aspects of your work that are not quite up to your standards or didn't go exactly as you wanted? Your workmanship speaks for itself: you are not trying to pass it off as something it is not.
And, the top is really beautiful.
Thanks Doug.There are two very different reasons for pointing out that tweak to a potential customer: 1)I am indeed pleased with it. I feel it was worth the effort and has passed my own "tests" and 2) one does not know who might come along some time in the future with an electron microscope or something and put the wrong idea into the customer's head.
However, another interesting situation could be coming up soon- the senior curator of an Auckland Art Gallery has expressed the wish to view this and other items I have made-since he is not a customer, but no doubt has seen lots of woodwork, I will be keeping quiet , and watching his eyes.Philip Marcou
Any prospective buyer for that piece will examine it carefully, and I doubt very much if the implants would be noticed..But I would point it out all the same.Philip Marcou
Actually, if I were making it for a client, I'd be apt to point out the character and the extra time it took to enhance that individuality of the wood....and charge a bit extra. They'll be happy, you'll be happy, and what's to lose?
Yeah....I'm capitalistic alright, but wood like that is priceless!
Dave, another way of putting it is: your own satisfaction with the quality of the job may be directly proportionate to the price....Philip Marcou
Justin,
The finish is Bullseye shellac sealer, followed by precat lacquer.I do this on all , unless otherwise requested.Philip Marcou
So, who is "A person"? If it's a customer (that's the one with the checkbook), you may have a problem. Everyone else should be thanked for their comment and then ignored.
One big problem with doing this for a living is deciding how good is good enough. I've been woodworking for over 30 years and I can't recall anything I've ever built that I thought was "perfect". I always look at the finished piece and say "Next time, I'll........."
I just finished and delivered two cabinets today and as I was reassembling them and loading them in the truck, every flaw glared at me like a cheap neon sign. When I finished setting them up, the customer was smiling from ear to ear and - as he handed me the check - said that he had several other projects in mind. Well, next time, I'll............ - lol
1000 thankyous to all who took time on this .There were some particularly perspicacious posts(!), so I'll be answering questions in those individually in due course.
In the mean time a little background to this issue is in order.
The piece is not a client order-I made it for demonstration purposes, and in that timber it is a "one off" because the timber is rare and I have very little left.
The knots were unacceptable to me-the rotten center type.For all the boards to go together harmoniously , with matching sides, I had to have the knots on the top.
The question has arisen because 1)I am in a new country and can't take much if anything for granted and 2)a gentleman made an appointment "to visit my workshop". Ofcourse I thought he was a prospective customer.... turned out he was "just keen".The amusing thing is that he looked at various pieces, and then asked how I managed to get away with timber without any knots. So I said when there are knots that I don't like I get rid of them-like here on this chest top....He still could not see the "knots" I was referring to-so I explained in detail-that's when he declared that the top was flawed. I believe I contained any maniacal giggles well, as he shook my hand and declared he would like to show his friend my work....(if the friend is a lady of suitable specifications and very rich I may be interested)
So I thought I would seek council from them that know...Philip Marcou
Philip -
Ok, that answers my question. My philosophy is that "it ain't a flaw if you have to point it out to someone".
Open a cold one and congratulate yourself on a well executed "work around" to a knotty problem - lol.
I say he has some big stones to call it a flawed piece when he can't even identify the repair when you have told him it exists. I think it is admirable that you have gone to such great lengths to make a fix that seeks to blend in as a natural element of the wood to avoid junking a fine (and limited) piece of good wood.
Them's my sentiments too. I think of some people as being sent to execise my sense of humour. Litle do they know what the alternative could be....Philip Marcou
Here's my 2 cents,
1) You must point this out to the cleint or when someone eventually does it will reflect poorly on you.
2) You must notleave the knot unaddressed, this will make you appear lazy.
3) You must not use a decorative patch. The idea is to preserve a noble slab of wood in an unobtrusive manner. think of yourself as a reconstructive surgeon. The customer must understand that this repair saved a spectacular one-of-a-kind piece from an undignified destiny. Nakashima's keys required no explanation: their purpose is obvious. Remember, it's not about you or the repair, it's about the handsome top you've made for them.
4) This appears to be a very nice repair. It is detectable while being quite unobtrusive. This is about the correct balance of all factors concerned. A convincing explaination should permanently settle the customer's mind. No apology is warrented.
Thanks Segil. You've summed it up well:somebody will always point it out, with various intentions.Philip Marcou
Dave45
As I was reading all the posts and got to yours I said "that's right, I agree"
There are very few pieces that I have made that can I sit back and say "I couldn't have made it better".
Almost all my projects are gifts. I made a Governor Winthrop desk for my brother and gave it to him. I am told that the family and friends anxiously wait to see what they get for Christmas. Humm. How do they know I am giving them something?? 8:)
So, my customer is not paying and therefore doesn't dare to be that fussy vocally but, even considering that, they will sit there, hands slowly examining every joint, feeling the finish, sniffing here and there, apparently transfixed with their new treasure.
What they don't know is that the fancy inlaid border on the cover now covers some blade tearout. The inset lock set in its own rectangle of a beautiful, contrasting different species of wood was to mask the fact the when I measured the centerline of the box for the lock, I picked up the wrong side of the ruler and the lock mortise was over 1" to the left but now centered. This story goes on and on and we have all done this.
I have never made a perfect piece but work very hard to try. IF the customer was paying, I agree that I would say, "If you are distracted by the apparent blemish, I will make another top." I have some items I never delivered because it just ate at my pride that the mistakes were that distracting [to me]. Ironically, visitors to my show would ask if they could buy them. Go figure.
To each his own. Work to your capabilities yet keep moving the goal post. Enjoy what you do and the way you do it. Hope others will enjoy it with you.
I am a hobby woodworker with a well equipped contingent of Delta stationary power tools, Incra Jig, Leigh Jig, and own every hand tool in any woodworking catalog available. I'm not kidding and not married so that is why. Sometimes just can't get myself into the shop because I just butchered something I had been working on for a while and my mind is conflicted with "salvage it or scrap it". Most often I salvage it and as I look back, the fixes were always so elegant that the person getting it is "grinning from ear to ear" and says "wow, that is a beautiful touch. How'd you think to do that?"
Jerry
No, you can't get on my Christmas list! But I'll think of all of you as we near the season.
Hi Philip,
Sorry, but I didn't see any flaws ; - )
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazz, must be my good photography then ;-)Philip Marcou
I've learned to handle this situation a little differently. The trick is to turn a flaw into a feature. By doing an expert repair you are unconsciously apologizing for the situation regardless of how great a job you do, ( unless of course it is absoluteley undetectable)
By telling even a difficult client a short ( but true) story about the quality of lumber available, and the natural features of real wood you can bring their level of appreciation up considerably. Instead of trying to hide the hole, picture slapping a butterfly patch across it. Instead of trying to hide a defect, the client now has a story to tell about how you selected the best wood you could find but there was one patch to be made.
Learning to do this will change the way you look at your material and will take your work to another level. Any idiot can work with perfect materials but all you really do is compete with the look of veneer or production work, hence the complaining. People, even the picky ones, who buy custom work are looking for something else or they would have already bought something off the rack.
I would suggest looking at George Nakashima's work to see how a master approaches some of these decisions.
A butterfly patch in the absence of a crack to be controled would look awful. In the piece under discussion, the maker removed a bad knot and replaced it with a tight one. He made a professional repair. I've done this many times. Neither he nor I owe an apology to anyone, nor is the repair apologizing for us.
I'm not sure I agree with your diagnosis, or the treatment you prescribed, but to each his or her own. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Hit,
I hear what you say , but in this case the inventitve / decorational/arty type fix would be inappropriate, as this is a military chest-a conservative item. It required a technical solution or timber would have been lost.If the knot had been more considerate it would have surfaced under my brass name disc on the side!
I am a bit envious of people like Nakashima.Philip Marcou
In that case, you did the perfect thing. I think the guy was just cranking you. I mean for pete's sake , you had to point it out.
from where I'm at though, when a decision comes up to either spend time on someting no one will see, or to use a solution that will add to the value of a piece, the choice is clear.
Michael Fortune calculates it this way. A competently made piece will sell for X. An inlaid piece will sell and sell faster for 2X.
Keep up the great work!
Aloha Tai
The piece looks really nice to me sometimes people forget that wood is from a living thing and has little "defects" and variations. Anyway just my opinion.
Troy
Thanks Troy-opinions are what I am looking for.For a brief period the comment of that visitor unsettled me-but only briefly.Philip Marcou
A person has said that this is an unacceptable flaw..
Well, I for one think the work is excellent.. BUT as others have stated.. If the person paying for it is the one not satisfied.. I'd direct them to a museum to purchase their stuff...
A person has said that this is an unacceptable flaw, in spite of the fact that the grain of the implant matches, and if you close your eyes and run your fingers over the area you can't feel any difference in texture.
Only flaw that struck me there was the contents of that person's head..... head fulla mice..!!!!
Awesome job if ya ask me....
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Well, obviously it's a flaw. The question is whether it's an acceptable flaw.
My personal opinion is: not a flaw.
Hi Philip,
No - not a fatal flaw is my vote. I've done knot repairs like this before, and yours are very high quality (better than mine) and the only way anyone is really going to notice is to get close to examine them. Even then, the only one who will know is an experienced woodworker.
Just one other comment about "flaws" - some people seem to like straight-grained, defect free stock, and nothing else. Like a lot of folks who admire Sam Maloof's work, when I read his book a few years ago, he specifically mentions buying other than first quality lumber and using that for his pieces. Ever since then, I've made a point of trying to incorporate "defects" into my furniture. In my opinion, this makes the result a lot more interesting.
-Joe
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