I am installing a large cyclonic dust collector in my shop. I purchased it from a used tool store. the inlet is 6 inches. I plan to run a 6″ main line through the shop with 4″ branches to my machines. I will have 8-9 ends or inlets at the machines. My question relates to the ducting. The cost of ribbed steel ducts is very expensive. The local supplier is suggesting I use plastic connectors an flexible piping. I know I would need to run a grounding line through the systems. Has anyone has comments or other suggestions? Has anyone used this setup and had any problems with it.
Thank you in advance for your assistance.
Robert McKay
Maplewood Enterprises
Maplewood Enterprises
Replies
Keep your flexible runs to a minimum. Friction losses and loss of laminar flow will reduce the systems efficiency.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
What about the grounding wire? I'm installing a similar system. Should the "static charge gounding wire" be a bare conductor inside the plastic pipe?
Rich
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Ducting.cfm#StaticElectricity (Scroll down to big green letters "Static Electricity")
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html (DC Myths - Static Electricity)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks, FG.
Really good info there. Static charges are a real issue at low temps and dry conditions. Well, in Northern Arizona it is 12 degrees F this morning and the humidity is 10%. My garage, which will be my temporary shop while I get my real shop built is as cold as the hubs of H*ll. And dry! (I sure hope space heaters are going to do the job 'till spring).
If your problem is excessively low humidity, try heating with propane or kerosene -- that'll dump moisture into the air. Kerosene's kinda smelly, even when you use the really good stuff, but propane works well. Here in the Great Northwest, of course, it's the opposite! I have a pellet stove (used to use a wood stove) and it keeps things down around 20% if I have it running a couple days in a row.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes,
I think I will be looking at propane heaters because I had completely forgotten to factor into my electrical needs the load that electric heaters would demand.
But I can't allow the relative humidy to have peaks and valleys depending on when the heaters are on or not. Typically I'll be working late afternoons and weekends. The heaters will be off most of the day all week. Hopefully I can get things evened out.
It's impossible to function here without constantly applying skin lotion as a protective barrier to moisture loss. It is absolutely no fun when dry crack fissures open up on the end of one's fingers and thumbs! Very painful.
Rich
"The heaters will be off most of the day all week. Hopefully I can get things evened out." Hope you can get it all working well. With good insulation (a joke in my shop) things may not change drastically in short periods of time.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The garage is completely finished and insulated. But I still have only that big 2-bay garage door on one end. It closes and seals quite well, but it's still just a thin barrier to the outside.
Propane or Kerosene heaters. If unvented (combustion chamber) be mindfull of CO (carbon monoxide). I used to run three Kero heaters till the headaches drove me to Electric baseboards. In my area Elec is less expensive to run than propane or oil anyway.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Unfortunately, carbon monoxide causes long term nerve damage. Very nasty stuff!
You have that right ! That's why I went to Elec Baseboard. I have a through the wall vented Propane heater I could install but haven't because propane is so expensive now and no natural gas available even if I did change the orifices.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
How does heating the air with propane or kerosene increase the humidity?
The products of combustion include water.
Rich
Thanks to Rich14. I was out doing a little "retail therapy" this afternoon (non-woodworking). That fact is why I don't use propane for heating my shop. We have way too much humidity as it is.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
In case there is confusion, propane will not add any humidity to the shop if the heater/furnace is vented to the outside. In fact if it draws shop air for combustion and the exhaust is vented to the outside then may drop humidity in the shop during the winter by causing outside air to be pulled in to replace the air used for combustion.
Only if the combustion is vented into the shop will the humidity increase. In that case look out.
Excellent point. I've only used the torpedo heaters and for a short time, a portable kerosene. Now I remember why I love my pellet stove!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks-you very much for your help. I a, new the the use of forums and am anazed at how much great info I am geting. Thanks to all.Robert McKay
Maplewood Entterprises
Forestgirl posted some good info ! The aluminum tape sounds like a lot of trouble and the durability is questionable. Explosion ! "Myth Busted". Grounding for the sake of shocks "Confirmed" and "Plausible". My system at the moment leaves much to be desired, have to move hoses from machine to machine and get zapped often enough to know that when I finally duct it up that it will have a grounding system.
Your question, Yes bare wire inside and out. Outside as a minimum.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 11/30/2006 12:15 pm ET by BruceS
We have 4"pvc throughout our professional shop with no grounding system. It runs probably 4-6hrs per day, 6 days a week. Haven't blown up in five years of using this system. I think I did research things a bit before installing all the piping and read somewhere that the static is on the outside of the pipes, not the interior. Honestly I'm more worried about the stray metal fastner that blows through the system occasionally. I'm not sure being a commercial shop whether there are any fire codes related to this system - we are inspected once a year without mention of the pvc, although, we have sprinklers, so maybe they don't look too hard. Has anyone out there actually come across a report incident of an explosion in one of these systems. What about in a metal piping system if a screw was sucked into the system either by accident or by falling off a machine - I imagine everytime that steel fastner hit a joint, elbow ridge, or all those screw tips protuding into the pipe you would get a spark, wouldn't you?
Just wondering? Do you think a screw hitting galvanized tin of a AC ductwork tube would create a spark? HMMMM.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Typically those hex head screws used for sheet metal work extend into the interior of the pipe at least a 1/4". Even on aluminum ducting it is typical to use steel screws. I guess the least dangerous would by aluminum ducting held together with tape or maybe aluminum pop rivets.
My impression, reading Bill's info, is that smoldering sawdust in the collection bin is the most likely cause of a fire. The kind of fire that doesn't actually erupt until 2 a.m. :-( Even if the ducting is aluminum, there are plenty of steel contact points for a piece of metal to spark off of, right?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
As a practical matter, you can skip that expensive metal ducting designed specifically for DC systems. You can use off-the-shelf metal ductwork (pipes and fittings) straight off the shelf of your local home center.
The big caveat: this is true in a home system that will not see the heavy use of a commercial shop.
As others have said, flexible ducting is perfectly acceptable, but it does cause a drop in system efficency. I would suggest minimizing its use in your system as much as possible, maybe using it only for the drops to your machines and for odd turns in the main runs.
As far as grounding is concerned, some books will tell you it is mandatory, but we have Bill Pentz to thank for the information that it is not, at least for safety (fire) reasons. However, static electricity is a real nuisance, and if it were me, I would ground the system for this reason alone.
Flexible ducting is available with a ground wire that is integral to the hose, but it is expensive; when last I bought it years ago, it cost about $35 for a 10' section, and I would imagine it is more expensive now.
The problem with running a ground wire through the interior of a flexible hose is the potential for snagging chips and clogging the hose. Maybe someone can comment about the usefulness of running the wire on the outside of the hose. I would think it might work ok, as long as the ground wire was attached to a grounded surface (your machines and metal ducting), but I don't know for sure.
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Robert,
Check with your local air conditioning company. I think you'll find they can get the spiral metal ducting at a very fair price.
If you buy from Oneida, they'll charge you a "crating fee" to ship it. The shipment from them was barely sprinkled with foam peanuts inside the crate, and the smaller duct sizes were slipped inside the larger ones. The combination of poor packing and the increase in mass of the outside metal ducts, almost every outside duct piece had dents and dings...
The company's receptionist that addressed my concern said I needed to file damages with the freight company... I just couldn't do that when it was Oneida's poor service.
Buy local and keep the plastic flex ducting to a minumum.
Bill
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