I have been trying to brush on Sherwin Williams Waterbased Polyurethane (satin)with little success. It just won’t flow out very much and I am left with brush marks in the surface. I’ve tried a few different applicators and brushes and the results are basically the same.
If this was oil based poly I would just thin it as needed but the guy at Sherwin Williams says that they don’t recommend thinning it. I asked him about Floetrol but he didn’t know enough to comment beyond saying that the data sheet he had didn’t mention that you could add it.
I don’t have any Floetrol so I am reluctant to buy some just to perform a test that may not work. I thought I would rather rely on someone else’s experience if possible. I tried adding about 10% water . The flowout was marginally better but the sheen was spotty when it dried.
Any advice?
Thanks, David
Replies
Floetrol is pretty opaque white in color, so I'd be concerned about it affecting the transparency of the final finish. It's also described on the label as a "latex paint additive," so there may be some compatibility issues with other kinds of water-based finishes. And even when used with latex paint, it is by no means a cure-all; it helps, but it's not magic.
When thinning your water-based finish, I've heard that you can sometimes get better results if you add a bit of ammonia (non-sudsing and non-lemon scented!). But it's kind of a trial-and-error process, and any thinning has the potential to compromise the toughness of the final finish.
-Steve
Edited 10/27/2007 2:50 pm ET by saschafer
Thanks for your comments Steve. I'll maybe try a little bit of ammonia and see if that works.
David
"...but the guy at Sherwin Williams says that they don't recommend thinning it." You get this line of ....ahhhh.... garbage from most paint store staff. Don't ask them! Find a painter and ask the expert.
I can't begin to tell you the frustrations I had with one of the high-end Benjamin Moore paints that came highly recommended. Just about all of the problems evaporated after I talked to someone who paints high-end homes around here for a living (you don't make mistakes in this community if you want to stay in business). He told me exactly how to thin it (happened to be an oil-based paint) and apply it. The guy who owns the custom paint store was standing right there at the time. His eyes as big as saucers, LOL!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/27/2007 7:31 pm by forestgirl
I think most employees of these paint stores don't actually know too much about applying their products and anything that isn't published in a company manual. In most cases they know even less about clear coats so getting advice on furniture finishes is next to impossible.
The exception is Mohawk. Most of the staff there know their products inside and out and know the tricks to make them work in most situations.
David
"...and anything that isn't published in a company manual." Therein lies a big part of the problem, because the company is not going to direct us to thin their stuff -- EPA, all that. Just think, we could either have decent CAFE standards, and, say, clean diesel like they have in Europe, and maybe then be able to tolerate a few more VOC's in our finishes. Or, we can do it the hard (read: ridiculous) way!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
we could either have decent CAFE standards, and, say, clean diesel like they have in Europe
Made me think of an article in Mother Earth News a few years ago about making your own diesel out of used cooking oil. They said it smells like french fries when the engine is running.
Lee
The very first biodiesel. We have a biodiesel guy on the island here.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The "do not thin" lie perpetrated by finish manufacturers pertains ONLY to oil based or solvent based finishes, not to waterborne finishes, where adding water would not put the product over VOC limitations. Otherwise, manufacturers have every incentive to give fundamentally accurate instructions. Interestingly pro products tend to have detailed technical data sheets giving lots of specifics about application. Finishes for DIY markets tend to have less useful information, apparently on the principal of KISS. Another thing manufacturers do seem to fudge a bit is how fast they dry--the times given often are based on 77° @ 50% R.H. and when you drop down below 70° the time can lengthen considerably.
"The "do not thin" lie perpetrated by finish manufacturers pertains ONLY to oil based or solvent based finishes, not to waterborne finishes...." Doh! Sorry, I've been more than a little distracted the last couple of days. Have been visiting Knots for periodic breaks while helping my husband plan the memorial service for a close friend. Obviously not paying attention.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
But remember, oil based finishes are much more amenable to thinning than water based. Waterbased can lose the ability to form a film if thinned so much that the little packets of finish can't get together to coalesce and link together into a film. Most brands have fairly small limits as to the amount of thinner that can be used. And, since the manufacturers of waterborne paints don't have to worry about the VOC regulations very much, there is no reason for them to lie about thinning as the oil based manufacturers do.
My experience with Sherman Williams is that they are knowlageable and interested in helping me get the best results posible. Flotrol would not work in a water borne poly. Unfortunately there is still not a water based finish on the market that will flow out as well as a solvent based product. Believe me, when there is one I will be the first to use it.
I would try adding 10% more water to it. I doubt that will hurt it. As mentioned before water based finishes, especially water borne varnish, are picky about thinning. The problems from over thinning sometimes will not show for months or years.
If you can spray the finish that would work a lot better.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
MapleDave,
I just finished a project that I painted with Porter exterior latex trim paint.. I had the same problems and solved it by thinning nearly 40% with floetrol. Laid out beautifully. The tried to coat with Benjamin Moore's "Stays Clear" water-based polyurethane and same problem. Finally sanded smooth, thinned with floetrol after getting assurances from their website that it would work. At about 25% (using the SWAG method of measurement) I got two coats on, smooth, clear, and nice gloss. You can also thin with distilled water. Just try some on scrap. It won't take long to find out. Hope this helps.
Steve
There are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
Thanks for passing on your experience Steve. That really helps. I am still a bit wary given the fact that I am using satin and you were using gloss.
One of the other Steves mentioned the fact that when these WB finishes are thinned they don't coalesce properly and I could see that leading to the spotty or uneven sheen that I saw when I thinned a sample with a little bit of water. Maybe Floetrol allows you to thin the finish without this happening.
I'm not so hung up on building the finish, I can just apply more coats to get that. I just want an even sheen and good flow out. Why do we have to monkey around with all these products just to get them to work properly?
Thanks again, David
"One of the other Steves..."
There are entirely too many Steves around here, aren't there? Reminds me of my 7th grade P.E. class--20% of the class was named Steve.
Of course, there are a lot of Daves, too. But only one Mel.
-Steve
Steve,
As you obviously feel so strongly that you are the only person on the planet who deserves the honor of being called "Steve", I am thinking of applying to have my name legally changed to Billy Ray Bob Schnorklepooper. I wouldn't want to horn in on your territory. Seriously, keep laughing, my friend.
Steve--oops--Billy Ray Bob
There are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
Edited 10/28/2007 5:18 pm ET by fussy
When I was in elementary school Steve was the coolest name you could have. After all, it was the name of The Six Million Dollar Man.
"When I was in elementary school Steve was the coolest name you could have."
Well, that's still very much true. I mean, it's obvious, no?
-Steve
You've got me convinced.
David,
I don't think the satin finish type will cause trouble with floetrol. Try thinning small amounts with gradually increasing amounts of floetrol until you get what you want. Properly mixed, the results should be even throughout. Take your question to "Ask the Experts" for Peter Gedrys for a more definithve answer. He sounds like he knows what he's doing. Hope this helps.
SteveThere are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
Thanks for the ideas Steve. I didn't even clue in to that Ask the Experts section. I'll take a look at it.
I may buy a small container of this floetrol and try a bit of it just to satisfy my curiousity. I suppose I could always use it the next time I am painting some woodwork in the house with latex.
David
>> I don't have any Floetrol
I recommend you go to the "floetrol" website. Floetrol is formulated for waterborne latex paints, not waterborne acrylic paints.
I actually went to the Floetrol website before I posted here and you are correct, they don't specifically say that you can add this to Wb poly or not to for that matter. It is an additive designed for latex paints.
However, in scanning numerous website postings, anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that you can use some Floetrol with WB Poly to make it perform better. Many of these postings are by DIY'ers so I was hoping to tap into some of the high end knowledge here for a definitive answer.
It is kind of like the home made biodiesel of years ago. The car company may not recommend that you use cooking oil to run your diesel engine, the diesel company may not recommend that you add cooking oil to their fuel and the cooking oil producers may not recommend that you use their oil to power your vehicle, but it works nevertheless.
David
Sometimes you'll get better luck with floating out the brush marks if you warm the finish first- Try sticking the can (gallon, quart, pint) in a hot water bath. You need to be quick with the application though, it will tack up a bit faster. I would think one of those edging pads withthe light nap might work best if your surfaces are mostly big surfaces. Just my two cents.
Thanks Spalted. Hopefully your name doesn't imply that you have some sort of fungal infection ; )
That is a good idea about warming the finish in a bath to get it to flow out a bit better. I'll have to try that one.
You are right about those edging pads with the short bristle nap. In my experiments I have found them to be the most effective at minimizing bubbles and brush marks.
David
The trick to getting a good brushed-on finish when using WB poly really lies in a combination of the brush you are using and your application technique. Unfortunately, no matter how good your brush and how perfect your technique, it is still pretty darn impossible to get a top quality finish straight off the brush. Depending on what you are finishing, the final coat will most likely need some kind of sanding and/or rubbing out.
Regarding the brush, use the best quality synthetic bristle brush you can afford. Natural bristles will absorb the water in the finish and will quickly loose their shape.
Regarding application technique, there are two keys to successful brushing. First, when you dip the brush in the finish, don't drag the brush against the edge of the can the way you would when using paint. This will introduce air into the finish and will create a lot of bubbles. Instead, after you dip the brush, just hold it above the can and let the finish run off it until the brush contains the right amount to work with. (What's the right amount? You have to determine that yourself through trial and error.)
Second, don't use the brush like a brush, but rather think of it as a squeegee (sp?) that you will use to flow the finish on the surface. Lay the material down in one long, smooth stroke and then leave it alone. Going back over it with the brush will simply make the finish worse. Rather than trying to "work" the finish with the brush, you need to lay it down and let it flow out by itself. Work from a wet edge, overlapping each stroke a bit, and work quickly. If you've ever brushed shellac, the technique is pretty much the same.
If you apply the finish as described above, you will most likely still have some blemishes and/or brush marks that need to be sanded or polished out, but they should be much less than they would be if you play with the finish too much with your brush.
One other thing: This may sound obvious, but make sure the finish you are using is designed to be applied with a brush. If it is, you shouldn't need to thin it. I would avoid floetrol as it has been my experience that WB poly with floetrol doesn't cure properly and the film never fully hardens. Likewise, I would avoid adding any water to the finish.
Thanks very much for your detailed advice Andy. I will continue to practice with some upgraded brushes and your suggested techniques. Also, that is really good to know that in your experience Floetrol seems to compromise the proper curing of a finish.
I guess I was hoping that I could modify the WB poly the way I do with oil based poly. With the latter I have enough experience that by diluting it with the right combination of thinners I can hand-apply a finish that almost looks sprayed. I have a small conversion HVLP setup but I think my chances of using the WB out of the can and getting it to spray properly without thinning are close to nil.
Thanks again, David
What's the temperature in your shop? Waterborne finishes are much more sensitive to temperature than oil-based finishes. If it's too cold you won't get good results no matter how well you apply it.
There should be a recommended range of application on the can. Try to stay in the upper range, but don't exceed it.
Rick W
Rick
I have been appling the finish to my test boards in the house so temp is about 70F or so. I think the range on the can was 50F - 75F or something like that.
I tried the trick of warming the finish in a warm water bath as suggested in an earlier post and while it did make it a bit less viscous it seemed to set up even faster rather than flowing out.
Thanks
David
David
Sorry to be late with this post.
I have tried at least 10 different WB finishes and only one gives me satisfactory results. Try a quart of General Finishes Polycrylic. It is available from Woodcraft and, I understand, from Naked Furniture if you have those stores. The others are right that you need a top quality brush - but cleanup is so easy that mine is good-as-new after 7 years. (I always pre-wet the brush so finish doesn't have a chance to harden in the core.)
I've had professional painters think that my brush-on finish was sprayed on.
Good luck.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Thanks Frosty.
If I recall, Fine Woodworking did an article on WB finishes a while ago and I believe they came to the same conclusions about the General Finishes product as you have. I'm not sure who carries it here in Canada but I don't think I have seen it on any of the local store shelves.
Most places carry Minwax, Varathane, or their own house brand. I thought that by purchasing a more expensive Sherwin Williams brand I would get a higher quality finish with higher quality results. I must say though that the satin sheen of the SW brand is really good as is the clarity.
Many of these satin finishes have a somewhat cloudy, almost blue-ish, appearance but even the thick drops of SW that got spilled on my worktable were crystal clear with a satin sheen. I just wish I could get it to flow out better. Many of the tips here have helped but I'm still practicing to get this right.
David
Doesn't Woodcraft ship to Canada?I buy gloss and then bring it to the sheen I want by using Abralon pads (from Homestead Finishes - Jeff Jewett) on my ROS. I run through the grits up to 4,000. I'm pretty sure that Polycrylic is available in a satin too. Good luckFrosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I'm sure Woodcraft would ship to Canada but even though our dollar is pretty strong right now I would bet by the time duties, taxes and shipping costs are added the bill would be a bit steep.
Although I have sanded/buffed out gloss finishes to a smooth, high gloss I have had poor success in obtaining a good buffed satin finish. It is either too dull or too much like a scratchy semi gloss.
I've never used the Abralon pads but I think I have seen them locally. The difficulty is that much of my work involves curved surfaces so flat buffing setups are not much use. I'm sure there is a good, satin finish buffing compound out there but I don't know which one to buy without trying them all. I was thinking of trying some Rottenstone or some automotive buffing compounds like Maguire's but it is hard to know what compound gives the satin I am after.
Thanks for your help
David
I just "Googled" (a new verb) General Finishes. There is a tab for store locations, which they state are "all across the U.S and Canada"; "just enter your Province".Abralon is mfd. by Mirka, a Swedish company. They have hand pads if you are so inclined.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Thanks Frosty. I had found their website myself actually and saw that they do have a distributor in my province of British Columbia. The distributor isn't close enough to drive to but I may just order a litre to try it out. I'll look more closely for those Abralon pads as well.
This afternoon I tried another coat of the SW WB poly on a panel outside in the garage. The temp was about 10c (~45F) which is below the recommended temp of 50F on the can but the finish didn''t set up nearly as fast and had time to flow out well. It looks really good so this may work for me yet without taking a chance with Floetrol.
David
Hey Steve...Buy some Floetrol, its not that expensive and it works well
Steve the VI
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