Season’s greetings all,
I have just installed a hardwood floor, and I am looking for alternatives to polyurethane as a finish. The room is about 275 sq ft, so a little extra work is not a problem.
The material is South American Jarrah (sold as “Bolivian Cherry”, don’t get me started!). I finished a couple sample pieces with high gloss and flat poly, and I think it deserves better. It really is a striking wood.
I also have small children, and the difficulty repairing poly makes me uneasy. The room is a bedroom/office, so will have moderate traffic, and some risk of spills (the kids).
Thanks
Replies
Sounds like a bitchen floor, I would love to see it. Tell us more about the poly you tried. Solvent or Waterborne? Tinted or blue like non-fat milk if w/b. Poly is going to be the toughest floor finish you'll find. W/B poly doesn't pop the figure very well, nothing beats an oil undecoat but W/B poly won't stick to oil and you may not have a month to let it dry, plus it stinks. A dewaxed shellac barrier coat will cure the adhesion problem and may give you the look you want without the oil as a base coat. If the poly looks like non-fat milk the finish can be warmed by adding a little w/b stain. I've never done floors with it, but Enduropoly is pretty tough as is and they have a cross linker additive that makes it even harder. I use 1 tbs per quart of their special golden oak w/b stain concentrate to get a nice amber tone. Or you can get pre-tinted called "Overprint". Contact Compliant Spray Systems in San Clemente and talk to the pres or their finishing guru and they'll steer you straight. For a 2nd opinion I'd contact Jeff Jewitt at Homestead as well.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I had two very small leftover cans of Minwax oil based poly, flat and high gloss. I don't have a problem working with poly, but I worry about the repairability. I found one of my kids breaking the driveway the other day. Now, you wouldn't normally think you'd need to say "Hey, don't break the driveway" to someone, but...
He's 5, and got a hold of a chunk of rebar, and used it to dismantle the pavement. Who would have thought? I tremble for the new floor.
I am pleased with the color of the wood as is, so no need for stain. I am not worried about ambering, though.
Can't remember where I heard of it, but is tung oil with a bowling alley paste wax acceptable for a floor?
Tell Bam Bam to leave the rebar outside. Wait 'till he's 10 and you catch him carving his intials in his chest of drawers or when he's 16 tearing up the plaster with his skater friends in the pool you drained for it's acid bath!
Repairabilty of a floor finish should be a non-issue compared to durability. Oil, Lacquer and Shellac are the most repairable but oil offers no stain/abrasion resistance and lacquer and shellac offer poor durability so they're easy to fix but you'll be fixing it often. If it was solid wood I'd be might be temped to try just oil. But if it's mfr'd flooring the 1/32" surface won't leave much room for sanding out Bam Bam's handiwork with the Welch's. If old school bowling alley finsihes were tough they wouldn't shoot you for wearing street shoes on it. Long before low VOC regulations, the driving force behind the development and improvement of W/B poly was the need for a safe to apply floor finish.
We we're sacrilidgious and went the Pergo route on the entire first floor. The kids were teens but between them, their friends, 2 dogs and the pool I was mostly concerned about water damage. It's held up very well for the last 4-5 years except for when the ice maker solenoid valve went south.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
This is not a manufactured product. It is 3/4" (well, 11/16) by 3 1/2" T&G planks. I was able to get it at a price that was lower than even the low end Pergo-type products.
I too, have tried laminate floors, and the noise of toddlers pounding hard plastic on it was enough to drive me from the house.
Jeff Jewett's site recommends (as far as oil finishes on floors go) Tried and True products. I have used their BLO, and while it looks nice, it's a PITA to apply.
Do you think I could get the same look and durability from a Watco/wax finish as Tried & True/wax?
You could use a hard wax like carnauba,or a wax that contains a high portion of this.Bolivian cherry is very hard,and will withstand abuse well.However,wax will not protect from spills. Like most engineered products,there are trade-offs whichever you choose.
If it is jarrah, it isn't South American, and vice versa. Jarrah is a eucalyptus, and comes from Australia.
Species Information / Cherry, Bolivian
The Species:
Flooring Trade Name: South American Jarrah, Peruvian/Bolivian Cherry Botanical Name: Manilkara, bidentataLumber Name: Massarasanduba, Chico zapote, QuinillaGrows In: Brazil, Peru, Central America, Mexico
View Image
I guess if it is being sold as a milled product, they can call it whatever they want. To my eye, it has very little in common with cherry of any kind. It's a beautiful wood, whatever the name.
This is a fairly accurate picture, although there is a great deal of color variation among the boards. I have some that range from a pinkish beige to a dark chocolate, and everything in between. The freshly cut surfaces are a pink/red, which darkens with exposure to sunlight.
It is indeed a very hard and heavy wood.
Several years ago I refinished a stage floor for a school. I used a catalyzed finish from Sherwin Williams. The only drawback was I had to wear a respirator with quality filters. The finish was rock hard and looked good. It was pretty much kid proof for severeal years. I don't remember the brand name but Sherwin Williams or any other paint supplier will have something good to use, will supply good directions, and will stand behind their product.
Chuck
There are a number of catalyzed waterborne finishes primarily sold to the trade, but I had no trouble getting them when I needed them.
I have used Basic Coatings Easy Street and Street Shoe. They are very hard and durable, and have a thinner build for a closer to the wood look.
Glitsa is another catalyzed waterborne that is poplulr around here.
Both need GOOD ventilation until they have thoraoughly flashed off.
Aternatively, there are lacquer based coatings made especially for floors. They go on easily, dry quick, and wear well enough. I can't remember the brands right now.
By the way, if you use an oil-based poly, use one made especially for floors. They can easily be sanded and recoated whenever they show wear. I've done so in some old shops with wooden floors.
Michael R.
Your looking for the most durable finish and the most aesthetically pleasing but there's no such animal!
Penetrative oil is far and away the best for bringing out the color and figure in timber but, although almost maintenance-free, it isn't waterproof and will 'white spot' or stain if liquid is allowed to lay on it.
Polyurethane is the hardest finish but oil-based poly goes yellow and water-based won't bring out the color and figure nearly as well.
My choice would be a shellac (Zinser or similar) to seal and bring out the color, then 3 coats of water-based polyurethane in a satin finish.
Water-based dries a lot quicker than oil-based and is odorless. Re-coating or patch-repair is a snip -- just clean the area, lightly cut back with about 220 grit paper and apply the coat -- dry in 2 hours!
IanDG
>>Polyurethane is the hardest finish but oil-based poly goes yellow and water-based won't bring out the color and figure nearly as well.
Polyurethane floor varnish is a urethane-modified alkyd and not near as hard or long wearing as the catalyzed finishes. They look great, too, especially if you build with gloss and just use satin for the final coat. Of course, tastes differ, but I'm judging by customers' reactions, not my own.
The water based polys are more abrasion resistant than oil based, because they contain more urethane resins, but I wouldn't use any furniture finish on floors with the exception of shellac, which looks great and wears surprisingly well. Excellent flexibility, too. Apart from that, I'd stick with finishes compounded especially for floors.
Michael R
So what are you saying? Zinser with Street Shoe, for example, isn't a hard-wearing finish for floors?
IanDG
>>So what are you saying? Zinser with Street Shoe, for example, isn't a hard-wearing finish for floors?
I don't think I ever referred to that combination, or said anything like that, only that oil-based poly wasn't the hardest finish around, and that it is a urethane modified alkyd resin rather than pure polyurethane.
Shellac makes a very good barrier coat under some finishes, but I don't think I'd put any catalyzed finish of any kind over shellac without testing it extensively first. Hard finishes over soft are always risky, and most manufactureres of catalyzed finishes are pretty particular about what goes under them. Most of them exclude shellac.
By the way, are you talking bout Zinsser Seal Coat, or Bullseye shellac?
Michael R
If you're a flooring professional, you probably use this site -- if not, you may find it helpful.
IanDG
Thanks for your time, I appreciate the input.
I had a look at your website, and you certainly have more experience with floors than I! Do you have an opinion on the Waterlox products? According to their information, it is the miracle finish we have all been looking for; tung oil base, water & alcohol resistant, extremely durable, yet easy to repair....
And if you can't trust the manufacturer's literature, well what kind of world are we living in, anyway!
The best resource on the net that I know of is Floormasters, which is a "Knots" for floor guys -- try posting your specification there and you'll get an opinion from guys who use Waterlox, which I don't.Every manufacturer claims their's is the best but you can't beat an opinion from the guy who uses it.
IanDG
I am not a professional floor finisher, but I have finished a considerable number of floors as a house rennovator.
Until the technology improves considerably, I would not even consider a water based finish of any kind. Those I have tried (and others that I have seen) simply don't stand up to even modest wear.
I have had outstanding success with a Flecto product (now owned by Rustoleum) called Varathane #90 Interior clear finish, an oil -based polyurethane. Applied witha lamb's wool applicator, it spreads beautifully and evenly.
It is also one of those plyurethane products which does not have to be sanded if recoated within 12 hours. I have always done at least 3 coats, sanding only after the second-- mainly to remove dust nibs.
I have a rental unit in my house and used this product on the kitchen floor about 12 years ago. it looks as good today as it did when first applied; and you can imagine what sort of care the floor gets in a rental.
Home Depot carries various Flecto Varathane products, but most will probably not stock this one. But they will order it for you.
BTW, even if you want a satin or semi-gloss final finish, your first coats should be high gloss, which does not contain flattening agents which detract from the durability of the finish.
Good luck.
Until the technology improves considerably, I would not even consider a water based finish of any kind.This is no longer so, the modern industrial water-based polys like Bona-Kemi compare very favorably in hardness, dry quicker, are UV resistant and the fumes are far less toxic.
IanDG
Jon,
Try a tung oil - base finish.
We have a lot of horror stories from here where polyurethane finishes have seeped into the tongue and groove and glued the boards together. All goes fine until the A/C is turned on or you get a dry spell - the shrinkage 1% summer/winter equates to 2" per 20' wide - some floors have cracked in 1/4" wide cracks because the boards were 'glued' together with Polyurethane.
Tung oil is finished with a hard topcoat - sold as Gemini here, but probably a PVA derivative.
cheers and happy Xmas,
eddie
Eddie,The poly sold in Oz is mainly moisture-cured, solvent based -- it's not the same thing that's sold in the States.Most Oz manufacturers, like Polycure for example, recommend a quick-dry seal to be applied first, precisely to stop "edge-bonding". If this is done then there's no problem.
IanDG
Edited 12/24/2003 11:40:55 PM ET by IanDG
thanks Ian,
Didn't know that tidbit.
All the best for Christmas
eddie
Edited 12/25/2003 4:11:34 AM ET by eddie (aust)
Waterlox! I had my white oak floors sanded and the contractor wanted to use poly. Other than protection poly does nothing for the wood. Waterlox "pops" the grain. After I applied the second coat my wife and I were stunned(wow). Visit their website @ Waterlox.com for more info. Merry Xmas!
Thanks for the advice. I used three coats of Waterlox original, and I couldn't be happier with the way it looks.
Waterlox really is a great finish for floors, and anything else that needs a durable finish. I am completing a padauk dining table that I used waterlox on and am super pleased at how beautiful it's coming out. It is a much longer flash time, which means you are susceptible to getting crap in the finish while it's flashing off, but that can be fixed later. You definitely don't want anyone in the house while it's curing, it has a very strong odor.
For my own floors, I went with the Basic 1, an uncatalyzed water-based finish, with their Amberizer additive to give the floors an oiled look.
I really have to disagree with the comment about water-based finishes. This technology has really advanced to the point that I believe they are superior to oil-based finishes, not only do they offer equal performance but they also build thinner to give less of a plastic look, and they application flash time is hours meaning you can do 3 coats in a day. On top of all that, anything that doesn't use solvents, including for clean-up, is better for the environment and that makes it better for humankind.
Bonakemi, Glitsa, and Basic all offer highly advanced waterborne finishes for everything from homes to high volume commercial use.
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