Replies

1. 
   bobpowers | Apr 15, 2004 11:13pm | #1

   When I built my new shop a few years ago, I left it concrete.  It is troweled smooth, sealed with two mop-on coats of latex concrete sealer, and gets a coat of mop-on industrial liquid wax annually.  If I had it to do over, I would do exactly the same thing again.

1. 
   wood23guy | Apr 16, 2004 10:13pm | #9

   Bob,

   I currently work 5 days a week in a  new shop with concrete.  I am 40 yrs. young and wear sneakers everyday.  For the past 7 years, I worked on maple in our old shop.  I see the advantages of both. 

   What do you like about your concrete floor instead of wood?  That is, besides the cost of laying another floor over concrete.

   thanks,

   woodguy

1. 
   bobpowers | Apr 16, 2004 10:47pm | #10

   I like a clean shop.  Not that I am continually sweeping things up, but every time I leave the shop, I push the sawdust and shavings over in a pile in the corner where I periodically pick it up with the dust collection system. My floor is very smooth and very easy to clean.  Most people seem to have complaints about sore feet from working on concrete.  Not I.  The main reason is that I am very careful about the shoes I wear.  I walk several miles a day, and find that if I don't replace my shoes about once a year I have sore feet.  Of course, I'm only 76, so maybe when I get old I'll have more problems.

   I'm sure that a nice maple floor would look nice, but I couldn't be more pleased with the concrete.  By the way, my shop was in my basement for years, and I built the new one in 2000. 

2. 
   LeeEschen | Apr 15, 2004 11:48pm | #2

   Woodguy,

   I would suggest that you consider, providing that you have the ceiling height, a plywood floor over sleepers, even if you don't currently need to run wiring, air, or dust collection, under the floor. As one who suffers heavily from severe osteoarthritis of the knees, I know how unforgiving a concrete floor can be.

   You might not be hurting now, after all, I don't know your age, but things might change 5-10 years down the road. I'm 59 and overweight and have had the problem for over 5 years, but my son-in-law is early 40's, 6'4", with not an ounce of fat on him and his knees are just as bad as mine. He has worked as a mason all his adult life, now moving into general contracting to ease the pain in his joints.

   An alternative is one of the many shop floor providers. Check out http://www.snaplock.com for ideas. Their RaceDeck product has possibilities: http://www.racedeck.com . Let us know what your decision turns out to be and how well it works out for you.

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;

   Gateway to the Oregon Caves

3. 
   Mackwood | Apr 16, 2004 12:07am | #3

   woodguy,

   Concrete is very unforgiving on tools as well as knees.  There's nothing more disgusting that the "spatt" sound that a nicely tuned plane makes as it cracks hitting concrete.  Trust me on this one! 

   It sounds like you might want to go nicer than what I did but I put 6 mil. plastic down on the concrete with 1/4" carpet pad over that, then 7/16" OSB over that.  Nailed the OSB down in several spots with those "cartridge activated" fasteners.  Painted the OSB with three coats of Sherwin Williams "Tred-Plex" (white). Total cost for a 1200 sq. ft. shop will be about $750.  It's (first half) been down about six months and I'm very pleased.  Has just enough spring to be easy on the knees, the couple of tools that have hit the floor have come through unscathed and the small wheels on some of my "stuff" don't sink in.

   It's effective, cheap, low tech and easy to do; all of which appeal to me.  Good luck in you new shop!!!

   Regards,

   Mack

   "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

1. 
   wood23guy | Apr 16, 2004 05:26am | #4

   Mack,

   Thanks for your response, this is my first time on a site like this.  Do you think the white paint on your floor will become marred and too unsightly over time?  Also, was the OSB just butted together or was it tongue and groove? 

   thanks,

   the wood guy

1. 
   Mackwood | Apr 16, 2004 06:00am | #5

   woodguy,

   A.  If it gets too ugly I'll just sweep it real good and put on another coat of "Tred-Plex".  It dries fast!

   B. The OSB is just butted but I did put strips of carpet tape all along the bottom edges as I put it over the carpet pad.  Stuck the whole works together very well.

   I hadn't planned on fastening the OSB with anything other than the carpet tape but the sheets bowed upward in the middle enough to notice so I shot those fasteners down the center; three or four to a sheet.  A couple didn't hold correctly so I pulled 'em out and shot a new fastener a few inches away.

   BTW, the white paint really made a difference in the light level in my shop, I highly recommend a white floor even if it does get dirty looking after a while.  Small items dropped on the floor show up much better as well.

   Regards,

   Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

4. 
   ASK | Apr 16, 2004 09:08pm | #6

   Woodguy,

   My solution to cover the concrete basement floor was simple and cheap.

   Since I'm not there during the week, (weekend woodworker) and rarely spend 8 or 10 hours at a time down there, I found 3/4" interlocking 2' X 2' "rubber" squares at an auto supply place Pep Boys for about $8.00 for 16 SF. Didn't put it under any of the stationary tables, only where I walk. Keeps my feet off the concrete and just soft enough for long stays in the shop.

   I don't know how it will hold up over time but the first of it I put in about a year ago and its still fine. The other nice thing is when I drop something it doesn't break. Just bounces a couple of times.

   ASK

5. 
   pkeena | Apr 16, 2004 09:47pm | #7

   I built my dream shop two years ago and put in oak flooring.  It is a total of 1000 sq.ft. of floor space.  Besides being easier on the body it is beautiful to look at and work on.  good luck.

1. 
   wood23guy | Apr 16, 2004 10:02pm | #8

   Phil,

   Did you install over conrete, and if so, how did you do it?  Also, did you sand and finish it or was it prefinished?

   Being my personal haven, this area is special and I therefore initially would prefer a red oak  or maple floor.  I currently have the means and experience to mill and lay my own, but really have to crunch the numbers  on my overall financial plan before I set off to mill and lay 1200 sq. ft.  But I have to agree, to me, hardwood will always feel like home.

   thanks,

   woodguy

6. 
   oak | Apr 17, 2004 02:51am | #11

   i know there has been a lot of the wood over concrete conversation on the other side of the fence over at breaktime...  you may want to browse the archives, or post a new question there...

   i have heard of it being done many times succesfully on a slab on grade (and i actually plan on doing it in my own home) but moisture issue could be an issue since you are dealing with a basement...

   but i bet some of those "other" guys could point you in the right direction

1. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 18, 2004 02:45am | #12

   Hi, Thanks for the many replies. My original question seems to have been lost. Let me try it again:

   I do not want to put down concrete.  I wish to put in a wood floor (probably pine--it's cheap here) over treated plywood  3/4 "  and either 2 x 4 or 2 x 6's over 6 or 8 mil plastic.

   Has anyone done this and how  did it work....spacing for the 2 bys ???

   I agree about the shoes, I work 12 hour shifts on concrete and purchase the best shoes I can. I'm lucky if they last a year, and, I have had no knee or back problems. I'm only 58....Sams sells the cushoned floor some of you are using,but  I really like the look and feel  of a real wood floor.

   Joe3     Inside dimention: 15' height - wall, 18' height - peak               

1. 
   EdHarrow | Apr 19, 2004 05:48am | #13

   I put in a "wood" floor in the basement of our addition.  It's been there for so long I'm not exactly certain how I did it, but I believe as follows:

   3/4 PT ply, which I cut up into  3 or 4"-wide strips and used a sleepeers.  I placed 3/4" foam between the sleepersCovered the lot with plasticLastly I laid down 3/4" T&G subflooring plywood, and screwed that to the sleepers. 

   This floor has been in place for at least ten years.  It doesn't get heavy use, heck it hardly gets any, LOL, but it seems that I can spend more time out there than in my main basement shop, and it neither bothers my underpinnings, nor the occassional item I drop. 

   All I need do now is empty the detritus of twenty plus years out of my main shop and put a similar floor in there.... 

1. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 19, 2004 09:39am | #14

   Thanks for the reply. I need to get this shop built and empty  500 sq ft of storage 14 feet tall. 12 foot shelving and they're loaded. Thanks again

   Joe3

2. 
   TimOBrien | Apr 19, 2004 01:38pm | #15

   Hi Joe3

   I am a carpenter/cabinet maker who has set up several shops over my years.

   I personaly find cement floors to be the best all around surface. For the people replying that tell you it is better to have a soft floor so that your tools will not break when they fall I have to say this. WHY put about $1500.00 into a floor to save the possible breakage of a $50.00. The simple reality is that the cost of this floor would buy a few good tools for the new shop.

   However Joe is seems by your coments that you are really wanting a wood floor.This is how you need to do it if you want it done right.

   I would use 2"x4" pt as sleepers, first you need to find the low point in the floor and scribe the 2x4s so that you end up with a level floor. As this is going to be a workshop I would go 12" on center. The surface should have a layer of 5/8 T&G plywood.Use 1" ridgid foam to go between the sleepers, but keep it against the bottom of the plywood floor. Install a cover of 6 mil. vaporbarior before the plywood.

   At this point you can put anything on the plywood with out risk of moisture problems in the wood floor. I hope this helps.

   Tim.

3. 
   BG | Apr 19, 2004 02:17pm | #16

   Joe,

   There is no absolute need to have any concrete floor under your wood floor in the shop.  Assuming you have a concrete foundation, you can come off of that with 2-bys or laminated I-beams and lay a floor on top of those.  Plastic over the dirt helps with moisture..and maybe a bit of cross venting....and attach the plastic to the top of the supports...rigid insulation would help a bit....the spacing between beams is a function of the run length....and it would be real sexy to have 2"by pine planks to walk on..sanded and sealed after installation....yum

1. 
   hmthomas | Apr 19, 2004 03:14pm | #17

   Hi all,

   For what its worth, I installed a plywood for over my concrete floor in my shop. I put down a vinyl vapor barrier and then just laid the 3/4 sturdy board ply directly on the floor. Once I had it where I wanted it I drilled tap-cons into the concrete.

   I know it sounds counter productive but it is a big improvement over the concrete floor. Here's what I found.

   1. Looks like a wood floor (sort of).

   2. Cleans easily. Far less cracks and crevices than before.

   3. Much much quieter than the concrete.

   4. It does have some "give" to it. Even though it is screwed down there is a certain amount of bow in the ply that it is much softer than the concrete.

   5. This is the best one. I no longer have problems with my tools rusting. Prior to installing the ply my tools were developing rust. Once I got this floor in this is no longer the case. My neighbor who doesn't have the plywood on his floor is constantly trying to fight the rust problem.

   I did this about 2 years ago before plywood prices jumped but I'ld do it again if I had to build another shop today.

   Just my 2 cents worth.

   If it fits the budget then do it!

1. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 19, 2004 04:00pm | #19

   Thanks for the reply. I'm trying to get away from concrete and then covering it. I'd rather spend that $2200 on new tools. 

   Joe3

2. 
   Mackwood | Apr 19, 2004 06:31pm | #22

   Concrete is great; IF:

   A.  You have no problems with your lower joints (don't go there!)

   B.  Do mechanic work that does not require finely honed edge tools.

   It can be coated to be very attractive and smooth.  It can be heated, textured and doctored up in all sorts of ways but it can't be made "unforgiving".  I've had two experiences in the 18 years I've had my shop built that, even though isolated, will live in infamy for as long as I live (retain my memory).  One involved the sweet Record block plane I mentioned in an earlier post, the other concerns a very nice Witherby 1 1/2" chisel.  The block plane was ruined and the tuning work lost completely; the chisel had it's life shortened considerably and required probably a life- times (my rate of work) worth of grinding to remove the damage.  My floor is half done and started the "other" half this weekend.  It's a big relief to know I'll never have to work over concrete again!!!

   Happy day!

   Mack  "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

3. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 19, 2004 07:02pm | #23

   I like the " feel " of a wood floor and the way it ages. I'm going to let the floor "weather" like an old fashoned store. Concrete is OK, we've had a few driveways with epoxie designs, but for my shop....Wood.  Lots of doug fir in Wisconsin too, but here I'm in pine country.

   Thanks for the replies,

   Joe3

4. 
   wood23guy | Apr 19, 2004 05:46pm | #21

   I have to say, the rust issue is one that some forget.  I also seek to store kiln dried lumber in my area and use it for fine furniture.  I anticipate some moisture problems (though minimal) if I do not have a vapor barrier of some kind. 

   thanks for the input.

   Seeing that God has put everything else I need into our budget, I know He will help me get a good floor down.

   thanks again,

   The woodguy

2. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 19, 2004 03:57pm | #18

   Thanks for the reply. I was thinking about skipping the foundation, putting the 2x's on edge,12" centers with blocking....like a grid pattern, placing the whole thing on the sand over the vapor barrier.  Sand,vapor barrier,2x,plywood, pine flooring.  I'm in North Florida, I don't have to deal with frost here, If I left the sides open, it would be a vented space.

   Workable?  Joe3

1. 
   BG | Apr 19, 2004 05:45pm | #20

   Joe3,

   I don't see any real problem with your plan, however, maybe taking to a local architect would help clarify the issues.  When I built my home in Indiana the large lumber yards all had resident architects and knew the local codes....their work was for free.  We built with all doug fir in IN and the wood was extremely strong.  Here in the Boston area they use white pine and it's crappy.  So my plans would varry quite a bit based on what was available in the area.  Lastly, I think you have a bigger bug problem down there....I'm sure that might effect things also... 

2. 
   ian | Apr 22, 2004 03:07pm | #31

   I was thinking about skipping the foundation, putting the 2x's on edge,12" centers with blocking....like a grid pattern, placing the whole thing on the sand over the vapor barrier.  Sand,vapor barrier,2x,plywood, pine flooring.  I'm in North Florida, I don't have to deal with frost here, If I left the sides open, it would be a vented space.

   I see a couple of potential issues

   are termites a problem in your area?  This design may be just too attractive to them.

   soil moisture changes may be a problem, especially if a neighbour has a burst pipe.  You may want to consider stabilising the sand with cement (about 1 part cement to 14 parts sand)

3. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 22, 2004 04:26pm | #32

   Yes, termites are an issue. I should have said : vapor barrier, treated 2x's & plywood, then the pine.  Now I'm thinking I could put high density insulation over the treated plywood and under the pine. If I put PEX tubing within the insulation I could have heated floors at a minimal cost. There are a lot of options aren't there?

    Someone else suggested mixing the sand and cement then spraying it with a mist.  Laying the floor over that.

   I appreciate your idea.

   Joe3

2. 
   wood23guy | Apr 20, 2004 06:22pm | #27

   Thanks for the advise, I have checked out other discussions on wood over concrete on the other site.  I have plenty of options ...just need the cash now!

   thanks,

   woodguy

7. 
   dloc | Apr 20, 2004 06:06am | #24

   Had to suggest two alternatives.

   1) Just did a floor in a barn loft and floated it over badly cupped boards. 3/4" T&G plywood underlayment over 1/2" pink insulation with a polyethylene laminate on each side. Use a polyurethane glue (Gorilla, etc.) instead of a thickened consturction adhesive for the T&G. Just remember to allow for expansion space; and tape the seams on the insulation. No reason that it shouldn't work over concrete. If you are putting big machines on it, you can get high density foam for use under concrete slabs in any thickness you want.

   2) The best floor is "end-grain white oak blocks". Wood and the gold standard for industrial shops, and now for high-end retail. For a bad picture http://www.themusicmansquare.org/streetscape.htm. Buy a bunch of oak cants and start slicing. In an old time machine shop, they might be 12" to 16" deep. Lock them together with sand swept into the cracks. If you have an uneven floor, you can level it with sand just like you would a patio. In the Music Man era, this is how roads were paved. In old machine shops, blocks were frequently bedded in hot tar.  This is a really nice look that will make your floor the envy of everyone including your wife. Am playing with gluing thin sections to a plywood backing for commercial use.

1. 
   Mackwood | Apr 20, 2004 07:12am | #25

   I'd say that goes a step or three beyond my humble OSB!!! 

   Enjoy!

   Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

1. 
   thebttmline | Apr 20, 2004 05:29pm | #26

   I'm in the initial stages of planning a detached 2 car garage/shop. There is a slight slope - the drop from front to back is probably around 4 ft total. I've considered making the front 20 ft (where vehicles will be parked some of the time) concrete slab and then making the remainder (around 8-12 ft) a plywood floor. Does this sound practical or is this a bad idea?

2. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 22, 2004 01:30am | #28

   Thanks, I had forgotten about that system. In the 60's I worked in a factory that had that type of floor. Theirs was only 3-4" deep blocks held in with tar.

   I'm leaning toward skipping the concrete floor, putting high density insulation over 2 x's then covering it with pine--very prevalent and cheap in this area.  I'm also thinking I can put 3/4 pine strips perpendicular to the joists and run PEX tubing for heating at the same time.

   Joe3

1. 
   dloc | Apr 22, 2004 05:31am | #29

    

   Don’t be afraid to experiment. I have done a bunch of alternative approaches. Some work and some don’t. Compacted dirt isn’t bad. Have it in a blacksmith shed. Have played with soilcrete, a mix of concrete and dirt. Spread cement on top of dirt, rototill it in, compact it and mist it. Works well (lots of roads were made of it in the 30’s) and you can get compression strengths equal to concrete if you play with proportions to get the right mix. The current high-tech version is to use acrylic polymer. Widely used by DOD for dust control on dirt roads, landing pads for helicopters, etc. Havent used it but have seen the engineering test reports which are pretty good.

   If I had a dirt base and didn’t care what other people thought (if they knew), I’d consider compacting and leveling the dirt, lay down a vapor barrier, lay down high density foam and float a plywood floor over the top. If moisture is a consideration, use pressure treated plywood. Use T&G pressure treated plywood if you can get it. If you can’t, use square edged plywood screwed into 2” or 3” wide pieces of sheet metal using 1” screws. You could use sleepers of the correct thickness but then you would have to cut your foam down making for more work. That is one way of doing floors in wood basements. If you want hot water heat, you could make (or rent) a hot wire cutter (or a half round router bit) like they use to insert electrical cable into concrete forms made from foam insulation. Cut the groves on 1’ centers or what ever a heat load calculator says you need. I have a floor of pressure treated plywood screwed to 3/4” pressure treated furring strips (plywood strips) over a sand base on top of bad concrete. It is nice underfoot and no problems in 2 years.

   Just some out of the box thoughts.

1. 
   DOCTORJOEY3 | Apr 22, 2004 07:06am | #30

   Thanks, I'm leaning toward the same floating floor setup. Vapor barrier, treated sleepers & plywood.  I thought this would work, I just needed to see if anyone else had done it. Thanks,

    Joe3