I recently acquired a Stanley #5 Bailey plane (Sweetheart Vintage). It was in pretty good shape, but I dutifully took it apart, cleaned and tuned it. When I went to sharpen the blade, I noticed something strange. The blade appears to be layered. I’ll try to described.
If you look at the cross section created by the bevel, there is a distinct color difference between the top of the blade and the bottom. It’s as if the blade was manufactured in two parts and then ‘welded’ together. The only thing I’ve seen similar is at a blacksmith shop when they fold a blade in two as it is being manufactured.
Am I just seeing things? (Probably)
Thanks in advance!
Cliff
Replies
It could be a laminated blade but I'm not sure Stanley made their blades this way. Is the blade marked "Stanley"? Either way it should hold a nice edge if it's laminated.
-Ryan C.
The blade is marked Stanley with SW in a heart mark. (Sweatheart)
Thanks for all the great information!
Stanley used laminated blades for a while. Good steel, take and hold a decent edge.
Take care, Mike
Yep- that is A firmative. I have one of those. Seems to work as well as the Record ones which say "Best crucible steel"- whatever that means. What is "crucible steel"?
Then there is Records's "Tungsten Vanadium" steel- also seems to work quite nicely, but what is tungsten about it? Surely these things are sent down to confuse us.
Back to the laminated blade- mine has the numbers 343 stamped deeply midway on the bevel(soft) side of the blade- can anyone explain that ?
Philip Marcou
Wouldn't "crucible steel" be poured, as opposed to rolled? The vessel used for pouring is called a crucible, right? I googled it and found this:
"The noun crucible steel has one meaning:
Meaning #1: steel made by the mixture of molten wrought iron, charcoal, and other substances in a crucible." Also known as drill steel.If the words were capitalized, it could have meant that the iron was made by Crucible Steel Corp, based in the UK. Tungsten is added to increase durability. http://www.key-to-steel.com/default.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&NM=62I can't help you with the 343, though.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
>> Wouldn't "crucible steel" be poured, as opposed to rolled?Don't get too hung up on "crucible steel". It's more of a marketing expression in this case that necessarily a specific designation of manufacturing process.Japanese plane blades are made with a lamination process. Their sumurai sword blades are made the same way.Howie.........
Crucible or cast steel are not marketing terms. The terms denote the method of manufacture of the steel. In this case, iron and the alloying elements are placed in a crucible and heated together until molten. It is then poured into ingots (cast). The result is a more homogeneous material than the alternative method.The alternative method involved stacking pure "wrought" iron with carbon, and heating in a kiln (or forge). This metal was called "blister" steel, as the resulting pieces had a blistered appearance. The trouble was, the resulting metal had a high carbon outside, and a low carbon or no carbon inside. So the pieces were hammered out and folded over. This was called "shear" steel. "Double shear" steel was folded twice. This is what the japanese did as they failed to develop a steel making industry. Their dependance on foreign steel, and our refusal to sell it to them, was one of the principle reasons for their attack on Pearl Harbor. Individual Japanese smiths made their own blister steel in their forges. Their folding process is identical to that used by european cutlers making chisels in the 16th c. I think the Japanese are very good at claiming the superiority of medieval technologies.Cast steel is dirty. For this reason, cutlers (not so much black smiths) found it best to reduce the crystal size to break up and more evenly distribute impurities. Reduction of crystal size also occured as a part of the hand forging process. The result is a steel that can obtain a very fine edge- easily rivaling any modern steel. Whether this steel can hold its edge has much to do with other things- hardness, specific alloy, etc.My view is that the chief advantages of cast steel over modern drop forged steel has nothing to do with the alloy or its lamination per se. On paper these are both disadvantages. I think the finer grain is advantageous in achieving a fine edge and the lamination makes sharpening very thick plane irons considerably easier. I recommend cast steel and laminated tools to woodworkers. Just be very careful grinding. The blade should never be allowed to get too hot to touch. Re-heat treating should in theory cause the crystals to increase in size, taking away something I feel is advantageous. (you could try cold working after annealing and before reheating).Adam
Right, for the most part.
I once worked in a steel foundry. "Crucible" steel does denote molton steel cast into ingots which if properly done, are uniform in alloy and carbon content. It was "dirty" at one time by the standards needed for critical uses. However, in more modern times, specialized furnaces have been developed that can siginficantly raise the quality of the steel. Of course, as you point out, it was a more even and reliable steel by 19th century standards which is why Disston, Buck and the others mae sure and stamp their tools with the words "crucible" or "cast."
That said, I think that while the old tool makers were probably telling the truth when they called things cast steel or crucible steel, it was undoubtedly a matter of marketing as well. One of the saw web sites posts a metalurgical analysis of a number of different steels used by one sawmaker. Turns out, that London Spring Steel and Crucible Steel are not very different as alloys.
HOWEVER, that is not the end of the story either. Many of the physical charateristics of steel are derived from heat treating and forging. Zapping a piece of steel and running a spectrographic analysis won't tell you a thing about either one.
So, really without looking at the records of the tool makers, you just can't say.
To PHILIPS question -- Vanadium and Tungstem are both common tool-steel alloys, as is chrome. Alloys make a BIG difference to the characteristics of the steel and what can be done with it. There is a big debate as to which is better or worse -- and a lot of people maintain the simple high-carbon tool steel is the best for blades.
I myself don't know. I often feel like a guy at a tennis match watching one side and then the other score points.
I'm not hung up on anything, I was trying to answer a question. It is poured, BTW, but I think it was made by Crucible Steel, in Philip's case.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 3/25/2007 4:47 pm by highfigh
Philip;First of all, you make a striking handplane. You've inspired me to give planemaking a go.Secondly, I believe the term "Crucible steel" is used the same way as "Cast steel". I'm sure I read this somewhere (can't think of where just now...). If memory serves me, I believe "cast steel" is a steel with a high (for the period) carbon content, but I could be wrong. Anybody?Nat
Warrented Cast Steel was/is on most of the quality irons made for old wooden planes. They were iron welded to steel lamination, and on the back of the iron, where it contacted the mouth of the wooden body, there was a tendency for moisture to collect as a consequence of atmospheric changes. With the differing reactions of steel and iron to rust, evidence of delamination may appear in that region.
I have some of these and it does not affect the performance of the iron. They are not cast steel, I understand this term was used to denote good quality and tempt buyers. They take a good edge.
here ya go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible_steelMike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
It is laminated and Stanley made irons this way. When the iron is made, they put the cutting end into the furnace along with a piece of tool steel, which they then place on the mild steel blank and hammer them together. When they're hot enough to bond when hammered, it's a good way to have a hard, durable cutting edge without the expense of a whole iron being made from tool steel. Japanese tools have been made this way for a long time. The Stanley iron on my first #7 is laminated and holds an edge just fine. Just don't get it too hot if you use a grinder and hope nobody else did, before you got this one.
I believe Stanley never produced folded blades.
There are various types of "layering", the two most common are:
1) Bi-metal: A hard piece of tool steel bonded to a softer body.
2) Folded steel: In this process metal is heated, folded, hammered and cooled repeatedly (up to 32,000 times) to form a "metal composite".
South-East Asian sword smiths have used both processes for hundreds of years. The very best sword smiths were able to fold steel into various shapes, "twist core", "feather patterns", etc.
Attached a photography of a plane blade that uses both folded and laminated steel.
Chris
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