First off… What is the most sensible sheen for a dining table?
I tried out the Foolproof finish technique in FWW #214 on some scrap cherry. I must say, it looks very nice… but, the sheen is somewhat dull for what my wife wants for our dining room tabletop. Oddly, the sheen looks great and is very reflective at a low angle, but looking straight down on the piece, it’s somewhat dull.
I assumed that this might be the case since the end finish is with 2-3 coats of gel varnish. Gel varnish only seems to come in a satin finish. Is this just a limitation of gel top coats?
I was really hoping the sheen would be a little bit higher than what came out. Keep in mind, I don’t want it to look like there’s a coat of plastic on top of the table, but maybe a semi-gloss. My next step is to sand out a gloss finish with Mirka Abralon up to 2000 and maybe a little wih 4000.
Replies
There is not "right" sheen for a dining table, though usually being fairly formal, they are often finished on the glossy side.
You can attempt to buff out the gel topcoat to achieve a higher sheen, but you have very little film thickness to work with.
If that doesn't work, what you can do is sand with 320 grit to give an even overall "tooth" and apply a couple of coats of a wiping varnish. Waterlox Original/Sealer is a very nice semi-gloss sheen varnish. Wiping varnishes are almost as easy to use as gel varnish.
Rubbing out the wiping varnish
Currently there's about 8 coats of Arm-r-seal wiping varnish on my table top. Even with a wiping varnish, you still need to rub out the finish. I was hoping to be able to use the gel top coat for the "Fool proof finish" since that would mean that I didn't have to rub out the finish. But the sheen is just a little bit low.
Foolproof Tabletop Finish
I have just tried the FWW#214 on a wenge table top. I am happy with the sheen in a broad sense, but I still have some uneveness of sheen across the entire top. There are some spots that are more satin than others under the right light conditions. Not sure if I am being too picky and would prefer to not rub out in a few weeks when the finish truly hardens. Since the flat sheen areas objectionable are streaks in the direction of my last pass to wipe off excess, I am sure it is the result of my final wipe down, but I am careful to keep the gel finish is still wet, one cannot notice the varying sheens.
Anybody have suggestions on how to better handle the final pass - use a 'wet' cloth rather than a 'dry' cloth; wipe it until it is no longer 'wet' looking, ???
Dan
Same thing here
I did eventually go back to using the FWW#214 finishing method.The test/scrap piece eventually turned out fine when I hit it with 4000 Abralon and a coat of paste wax after, then again, this was just a small board. Currently, I'm using this technique for the bottom of the top as practice for the top.
As I put my last coat of gel on, I think it was the 4th coat, using one coat per day, I can also see slight streaks here and there. The sheen is fairly but not entirely even. May I ask how you plan on rubbing out the finish when it hardens? My plan was to use 2000 and then 4000 Abralon and maybe finish with polishing compound, don't know yet and I don't really have any experience on this.
Also my new copy of Flexner on Finishing arrived today! I'll see what Bob has to say!
Foolproof finish
Assuming rubbing out is the only sure way to get an even sheen - I am not sure what sheen my sister-in-law is going to want, so not sure how I will go about getting there. 0000 liberon will be the flat look and I will have to try flexible sanding pads or abralon for something more semi-gloss. Experimentation will the key. Jewitt's book and old version Flexner book have some basic guidelines but not hard rules about how t go about things.
0000 Liberon Steel Wool
I tried rubbing with Liberon on the table top myself this afternoon, I can see scratches on the surface from the steel wool. I'm not really sure what to do next. I am thinking a combination rubbing compound and steel wool. It's the even sheen that I am struggling with. It should be even in any lighting conditions right? Then again, the wood grain below seems to alter the reflection too.
Steel Wool Scratches
My understanding is that 0000 steel wool produces an even scratch pattern. I wouldn't use it unless I wanted the scratch pattern.
Glossing Up Finish
Have you thought of auto polish with mild swirl remover in it. I made a teak table, coated it up with sikkens, let it set for a week, wet sanded it with some 1500 crocus paper, let it set for a week then polished it with Meguiar's Swirl X. Very nice glossy finish.
Teri Masachi speaks about using swirl remover rather than the traditional pumice and rottenstone methods in FWW 172.
Don
Almost all the professional and top amatuer finishers I have known over the past 15-20 years have used automotive products for "rubbing out" their finishes. Only rarely have I see anyone use pumice or rottenstone.
That said, I would not use any automotive wax or polish product unless I was absolutely certain it contained no silicone or other similar product.
I have used white polishing (not rubbing) compound and a Maguires two swirl removers very sucessfully. Of course, these products work best with electric buffing machines.
Silicone
I wrote to Mother's Wax a few years ago asking about silicone content. I was asked why. I told the guy I was interested in trying the product on wood but did not want to contaminated the wood. I got totally berated by this technical guy for wanting to use their product for purposes other than intended, and now that he knew, he could not help me for fear of liability.
Anyway, if there is any silicone in this product I doubt It would be any where near the levels that already exist in teak, and
If you put 4 or 5 coats of any finish on the wood, how much silicone is likely to penetrate the finish?
Don
Silicone and Teak
I have worked with lots of teak over the years. I was involved with a shop that made teak items for sail and power yachts. I can say that there is no silicone in teak. However, teak does contain some natural oils that interfere with adhesives and oil based and waterborne finishes. For that reason, we either lightly sanded surfaces to be varnished just before applying the initial coat or we wiped the surface down with lacquer thinner or acetone. For non-marine items we would sometimes apply a coat or two of dewaxed shellac as a barrier coat.
Silicone contaminated wood surfaces are almost impossible to finish. As soon as you apply a finish "fish eye" develops. Applying subsequent coats will continue to fish eye with each new coat. There are ways to deal with silicone but the best advise is to avoid it at all. Supermarket furniture polishes like Pledge and others are high in silicone content are are the biggest problem for furniture refinishers. Automotive polishes generally contain silicone also so they should be avoided on furniture.
He may have gotten confused with the silica in teak which makes it so hard on planer blades. Of course silica is a very hard mineral, not at all the same as silicone, which is a polymer. Both do contain compounds with silicon , an element.
So the question remains - if you do a proper job of applying your finish - assuming a good surface build - how likely is the silicone in the polish to penetrate and cause a problem? The auto polish is assumed to be the last coat.
Of course subsequent finish maintenance would require removal of the polish coat, but does it penetrate the varnish?
Don
It proves to be very hard to remove the silicone that leads to fisheyes. Just removing the wax with mineral spirits isn't often enough. Folks who do lots of refinishing work find they have to deal with it quite often--it isn't a rare problem. That suggests that silicone in the polishes and waxes do penetrate. And, since it really does nothing to protect the finish except perhaps being a bit more slippery, there is no cost to avoid waxes with silicone. And, of course, the problems come just when you begin to think about refinishing, when the finish has begun to break down, letting the silicone in at just the wrong time.
To a certain extent it can hang around for a long time, though I'm not sure that one application will have much affect on a refinishing twenty years down the road, but why take even a small risk.. But wax isn't a one time thing. It needs regular reapplication or it looks worse than the finish without it. The silicone won't harm the finish, what it harms is the refinishing process, including any needed touch ups. And, as you note, there is a tendancy to apply more wax to try to salvage a failing finish.
But the real issue is that there are a great many waxes without silicone. They work quite well on furniture, if you are given to waxing. I'd just choose one you like and make it your long-term standard. There just isn't any need to mess around with waxes with silicone. First thing you know, you grab it for your table saw top or your planer bed and wonder why the stain pulls away from certain spots on your latest project. Sanding just spreads it around and drives it into the wood.
As noted, I have only used Meguiar's Swirl X because Teri Masachi recommended it. The only waxes I have ever used on inside work are from Lee Valley.
Maybe there was some confusion in my reply to Howard following my little note on Mothers wax.
I was actually referring to any possible silicon content in the Swirl X.
I am sure Mothers Wax is loaded with silicone and have never tried it on a wood project.
Don
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