I need a new low-angle block plane. I can pay $30 and get a new Stanley 60 1/2. Or $90 for a Veritas, $150 for a LN, etc., etc., etc.
Not being a plane expert, why should I buy the more expensive planes. I use a low angle block to trim mitres, a little end grain and some general trimming.
Would it be worth the extra, or would I be throwing money out the window with the limited use I mentioned? For the big difference in price, “Where’s the Beef”??
What’s the scoop, plane guys???
Thanks…
sarge..jt
Replies
ive got the veritas. Great plane. You could go with the stanley, however youll spend more time tuning it up and you should definately go ahead and spend the extra money to buy a real iron for the plane. SO on top of the cost of the stanley figure the cost of a Hock iron, the OEM blade with the stanleys arent really good, they dont hold an edge and are thin.
WmP
You just told me what I think I suspect. Can you take it a step further. I'm guessing that the body of the Stanley is similar to the higher priced planes. The main difference is in the machining of the throat and the grade of steel in the blade. ?
Now, if I switched to a Hock cryogenically conditioned iron, flattened the base of the Stanley and corrected any machining defects in the throat; I would have the equilavent of the higher priced block plane?
Not a problem to do any of this. Throw in I can make a new A2 iron as my BIL is a machinist at Delta Air LInes. The sharpening and honing of the iron will have to be done regarless of which I buy, I'm guessing. I don't mind the time spent to do it.
Considering all that done, have I got a block plane capable of preforming as the higher priced ones? I guess that is the bottom line. I think so.. But as stated, I am not a plane expert. Just a 30 year WW and a tinkerer. I'm curious to what the major differences in prices relate to and can I assimulate the same quality with a little American Ingenuity. ha..ha..
Thanks for the reply...
sarge..jt
the mass is larger in the veritas and LN then the stanley. The stanely is made of a steel (im guessing) whereas the LN is either a bronze or ductile iron and the veritas is a machined cast iron.
both the LN and veritas will weigh considerably more then the stanely.
So once you tune your plane and switch to a heavier thicker better iron the only thing youd probably see a difference, is the weight. I prefer my planes to be heavier, but thats me.
Youll have a longer time tuning up a stanley then you would a LN or veritas and the fit (play) wont be as tight as the veritas or LN.
IMHO the veritas is the best bang for the buck, thats why i chose it. Its a nice heafty tight plane.
I dont know if the cryo hock is any better then the standard hock tempering..
Edited 6/25/2003 11:41:22 PM ET by WmP
WmP
I am sure you're right. The Stanley 60 1/2 wieghs 1 1/2 lbs. I wish the companies would state weight as I have been to the Veritas web-site. I am very impressed with everything I have bought from them. I believe that is Clifton Lee that has that enteprise. He has a great book on sharpening.(Pretty sure as Lee-Valley). I just purchased the Veritas adjustable scraper and cabinet scraper burnisher. I also have some of the tool-rest and angle jigs for sharpening. Very impressed with the quality of Veritas.
Have to agree with you on weight mass. I relate weight mass to vibration. I build my own stationary tool bases and don't skimp on weight and mass. The extra weight and stability dampens vibration tremendously with all power tools. If you try to knock a door down with a 1 1/2 lb. battering ram or a 2 lb. battering ram, the 2 lb. would require less force and you would get less vibration upon impact. Makes common sense to me.
The cryogenetically conditioned (A 2) steel is harder than the standard High Carbon. The high carbon from Hock are tempered to Rc62 on the Rockwell Scale. Hock conditions the CRYO at 320 F. an that makes it harder. The CRYO's take longer to sharpen, but will hold the edge much longer.
Thanks for your input. Everyone has been helpful that has posted. Don't know much about these planes as I have never taken a personal interest. Once I do get interested in something and go digging, I do dig pretty deep. Ask me what I know about planes in about two weeks. Hopefully a lot more than I know about them today. ha..ha..
Appreciated...
sarge..jt
"Now, if I switched to a Hock cryogenically conditioned iron, flattened the base of the Stanley and corrected any machining defects in the throat; I would have the equilavent of the higher priced block plane?"
Sarge, In addition to the weight difference that has been pointed out and the difference in the large, flat, highly machined bed surface that the blade rides on, another difference between L-N and modern Stanley or Record is that the blade depth adjustment on the L-N's is very positive with virtually no backlash. One eighth of a turn in depth adjustment means something, and its easy to predict the effect you're going to get by making a small, incremental adjustment. My .02 worth.
I have both of the L-N low angle block planes and really like 'em and use 'em all the time. I will admit that when I first got the smaller one - the one that copies the Stanley 102 and is all bronze, I couldn't believe that I paid $100 for it. "This looks like a toy or a piece of jewelry that Deion Sanders would wear on a gold chain around his neck," I thought. Once I started using it I figured out what all the fuss was about. Soon after I got the one that is modeled on the Stanley 60 1/2, too. Good luck, Ed
Ed
Thanks for your input. I will porbably get the Stanley to see what happens. The good news is I have excess to a machine shop. I really like the Veritas and LN as I have seen both at Highland Hardware. If i'm not satisfied with the results, $30 is worth the experience I get learning how these thing work properly.
I know the machining on the higher priced ones is better. I just want to see what quality improvement I can make. If I build the iron myself (BIL), I still got only $30 invested. Not all is lost as I could survive that. ha..ha..
BTW, when you get around to mounting that Milwaukee 3 1/2 under the table, you will be very pleased. It works like a charm an is a hoss to boot. Trust me.. < G >
Have a good day amonst the magnolia's...
sarge..jt
I had a Stanley 60 1/2 (would still have it if I hadn't drove off with on the roof of the car) that I spent some time tweaking and it worked well but I'd have to say the Lie-Nielsen was superior right out of the box. It da_m well ought to be considering it costs five times as much. I gulped when I bought the LN but have no regrets.
jc
Yeah, the price of the LN is about what I paid for my first car (51 Chevy) back in 1960 when I was 13. Now, will the LN come with an in-line 6 cyl. and can you expect to get about 400,000 miles out of it? ha..ha..
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
As evidence by the many plane threads that are simultaniously going on, this question of price vs. quality is a hot topic. Since it seems that you are going with the Stanley, please let us know how you make out, and whether you would make the same decision again.
Thank you,
Jon
Jon
I think that is an excellent idea, an part of the reason I'm doing it. In order to do so, I will have to get my hands on a Veritas and a LN to compare. That should not be too much of a problem as I'm sure some of the folks in the local WW club probaly will have them.
If not, I think Highland Hardware might let me take a spin with one of theirs that they use in the hands-on training sessions on week-ends. It would not be a fair test to have a 60 1/2 just off the sharpening stone and the Veritas and LN out of the box before they see the stone. I don't know for sure, but like chisels the V & LN are probably not properly sharpened out the box.
Make take a couple of weeks as I don't get in a hurry. My days of dead-lines are somewhere behind me. I just take my time and enjoy. Enjoying is an "inside job". ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge.jt
Sarge,
Just a couple comments.
1. You may be surprised to find that the Lee Valley and the Lie Nielsen will be ready to use right out of the box.
2. Lyn Mangiameli has written a nice comparison of LV-LN. Check it out over at Traditional Tools. (BTW, a nice forum.) http://host65.ipowerweb.com/~traditi2/forum/article_view.php?fldAuto=24&faq=2
3. My first car was a 1960 Chevy Biscayne. Holes over the headlights, plywood floor boards (the originals rotted out), 200 cu in 6 cyl, 3 speed on the column with accessory chrome plated shift knob... all for $50. (I drove it for 3 years and it was passed along to all 3 of my brothers. All it ever needed was a muffler and lots of gas.)
Jeff
Jeff
Thanks for the tip. I will see them both today or tomorrow at Highland Hardware. Dropping by for a few goodies. I was in doubt about the iron being sharpened properly. I had none on the machining being crisp, soles and beds flat, etc. Even with good chisels, I usually find the back needs flattened and the edge honed properly. Which is no problem. Coming out of the box ready to go would be a pleasant new experience.
If the Chevy is still in the family, give me a call at work. The company I work for part time has still got restoration parts for it. We've got a nice 65 Impala SS sitting on the show-room next to that new parts counter I built for our new facility.
Thanks for the web-site. I'm not to good at digging up those kind of things on the computer. It was helpful.
Did I get any advertising in here.. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
I'm a recent convert to the world of handplanes, but this has been my experience so far... The older stanley planes will work just about as well as the LN plane - with some work and extra parts. I think you will find that if you add up the value of your time along with the extra parts you will be close to the cost of the LN to get the stanley "up to par" with the LN as delivered. For some, this may be ok - I enjoy tuning them up. For others it's not so interesting. I recently tuned a stanley 60 1/2 for my neighbor. You can shave with the blade and the plane makes nice shavings. Took me over 4 hours with it tho to make it work like that - just as well as the LN I own. It's a bit lighter which I consider a detriment, not much you can do about that though. I started with the stanleys and have a few of them now. I also have a few LN's too and I like all of them. The LN's are top quality tools and you can't go wrong with them if the $$$ don't get in the way. It's a much cheaper investment to test the waters first, but if you are like me, it won't take much to get you hooked. Then all bets are off.
biznazion
I don't really mind the time doing the tuning. I have always been a dedicated tinkerer. My shop is full of tinker. I have several hours a nite between getting home from my part time job and bed-time. I try to do most of my building in the fall, winter and spring. Gets pretty humid in summer here in Atlanta. Just finishing a project and will go into the tinker mode shortly. That's when modifications, jigs and new shop improvements get some heavy traffic.
I will do my best with this thing as I think I can get it pretty decent. My BIL is a Delta Air Lines machinist and he assist with the machining. He's got a shop at home and a few little trick toys at Delta that not many can afford.
With the help of an engineer friend and my BIL, we put together a nice little Table Saw I bought a junk sale for $225. Got about $350 in it total and it works pretty good. It's pretty tinker down to the small shop frig in the bottom. Rips and cross-cuts well too. ha..ha..
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
I saw references to a refridgerator built into your tablesaw base before but I thought maybe I wasn't reading it right,...
I can just imagine the conversation between you and your wife around Thanksgiving:
SARGE: "Honey if there isn't room to defrost the turkey in the fridge, I can do it in the shop fridge. By the way, I can go ahead and carve it, too - let me just take off the crown guard and set up the fence for quarter inch rips."
Good job. BTW, you weren't at the Braves game at Turner field last Sunday were you? We were near third base - saw a guy behind the visitors dugout with U.S. Army Ranger 75th Regiment,
Battalion? something like that, on a T-shirt.
Good luck with the plane.
Ed
Ed
Ha... The old TS is a portable that got modified to go on a maple cabinet. The inside was rebuilt to work off 3 serpentine belts about 8 inches long. The motor is mounted directly under the arbor shaft to keep efficiency at a maximum. The saw is an old Ryobi slider that I bought junk. I machined the top to .002 and we engineered a ball-bearing system under the slider to beef it up. Added an old Delta 2 HP marathon motor from another junker. Bought some rails and added extentions and dual mitre slot on left and a single on the right for a box-joint jig. Use the dado jig off the left mitre slots. Saw had a riving knife set-up and I built a crown gaurd.
I put the little frig down under just for fun. Not everybody has a combo machine. TS-Frig and can mount a router, even though I built a router cabinet for that op. I have since removed the frig. My teen-ager kept using it and he an friends were hanging out too much. Remove the source of free soda and you will remove the teen-ager. ha..ha..
I think I will maybe add a grid top to the saw. With a butane bottle under-neath, could be a bonanza for grilled ribs, chops and burgers. If the power goes out, can just barbeque in the shop. < G >
Wasn't me at the game. I used to have season tickets to the Braves, Falcons and Thrashers (hockey). If I could afford to go to pro sports anymore, I would have bought the LN or Veritas block plane instead of the 60 1/2 Stanley. Teen-agers will do that to you also. ha..ha..
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
SARGE: Ive got to hand it to you your the "Only person I know that can get a Beater old table saw & get it tuned up & have a ref in the Dang thing too" hey I paid mega bucks for my Uni & didn't even get a Delta gals poster now Im POED...HA
take care Buddy.. ToolDoc
Doc
The price of those Uni's, you think that the Delta Girls would personally deliver, set it up and tune. I would call Delta C/S and complain. Tell them you'll drop the law-suit for "shabby service" if they'll send a free "Delta Girls Poster". ha..ha..
sarge..jt
So much depends on how you use it. You say you only plane with it a small amount, so I would suggest going with the cheaper one. If you have lots of money to throw around then of course it's irrelevant.
Hank
I got the 60 1/2. I looked at a Lee Valley low-angle smoothing plane. Super nice, but the low-angle block will probably do the trick. I've always been a take what I got and make it better. I've had some tools for over 20 years that preformed great. Only recently with the help of the Information Highway have I discovered that they are inferior and are not capable of building a decent piece of work.
I can account for about 30% of the almost 200 pieces that were built over the last 30 years with those inferior tools. I'm desperately trying to track down the other 70% for a re-call. ha..ha..
What you say makes much sense. I can afford the LN or Lee Valley, but the amount of usage doesn't warrant the much higher price. If I had 30 years in front of me, instead of behind I might go there. But the logical decision is too take the difference and use it somewhere that it can be better served. I'll as always, will just try to make up the difference in preformance with finesse.
Have a great day...
sarge..jt
I realize you've already made my purchase, but here's my two cents. I have the L-N low angle block plane, and it is one of my most favorite tools. every time I pick it up, I marvel at the feel of it, the balance and weight etc.
Recently, I set about looking for a couple planes for my dad, mostly so I can use something decent when I'm visiting, instead of his collection of rusty 1970 Handyman tools. I looked at new 60-1/2's, an everyone that I took out of the box had a visibly warped sole and just looked and felt cheap (not just inexpensive). So I bought an old 60-1/2 on Ebay for the same $30. Maybe I got lucky, but it was in great shape and only needed honing. It is also clearly superior to the new ones, and there are countless numbers of them up for auction, so you can look at the pictures and pick a clean one.
Henry
Henry
I had the old 60 1/2 for years. My son borrowed it without my permission to take to a friends to do some speaker cabinets. Opps... Came up missing. My teen-ager came up missing a few days after that. I won't give details till after the trail. Just kiddin'. ha..ha..
The newer 60 1/2 is not the same in workmanship. I will tinker and see if I can up-grade it. Hope to get started to-nite. We've catching rain off Tropical Storm Bill here in Atlanta, so that will give me time play to with it.
I did look at the LV and LN low angle smoothing plane this week-end. They let me take a test run with them. They are not the block planes, but both were superb. If I did a lot of hand planing anymore, I would like one of those.
I'll see what happens with fine-tuning the new 60 1/2. I love tinkering, so it'll give me a challenge. I won't raise my expectations too high, but I think I can get it too respectable quality for the small task I ask of a block plane.
Thanks for the idea, an a good one at that...
sarge..jt
SARGE: This has nothing to do with the Stanley 601/2 but oh well..ha.. remember we were jawing about the Dewalt/Elu stuff in another post,well I found this site & noted there selling Dewaly stuff over in the UK,soo maybe the ELU name is out..**Take Note to the cool jointer/planer combo unit at bottom of page on web site****on planer/jointer page
check this out..
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/ edited to get web site correct..<G> ToolDoc
Edited 6/30/2003 8:59:47 PM ET by TOOLDOC
Edited 6/30/2003 9:02:44 PM ET by TOOLDOC
Doc
How do you dig up this stuff. Ha.. If I wanted a combo machine, I think the thickness planer and face jointer makes more sense to put into a combo. The set of knifes is untilized from the top and bottom without anything having to be switched.
I think you're right, by jove. Looks like Elu has bowed to DW. Would still like to have that confirmed before I consider it set in stone. Maybe when Sgain gets back, he might know. Or one of our British posters might pick up and give us an answer.
Been tuning that 60 1/2. Sole and wings are flat at this point. Gonna send it out to the machine shop tomorrow for a little modification. Here I go again. ha..ha..
Off to dream-world...
sarge..jt
SARGE: If I told you how I find that stuff,I would have to shoot ya Ha ...cause its a Big secret..<G>... that sure was a cool combo huh..I wouldn't mind havin one & I don't even like Dewally stuff..LOL...
ToolDoc
Doc
The only thing I didn't like was the aluminum tables. It would add weight to use the cast-iron for reduced vibration. Maybe they did it for portable job-site, maybe just to keep cost down.
BTW, I'm sure you found some web-site and have a poster for the European DW girls in the mail. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
SARGE,SARGE<SARGE: You know me too well,IM on a never ending campain to get either Delta or Dewally to issue a pin up poster but soo far no luck,the only takers are Makita & Grizzly but I didn't want a poster of a Grizzly Bear posing in a Bikini ..Roflao...I keep hittin up Rock2Car & Delta 007 over at Woodnet but they keep giving me the Brush off,but I keep plugging away,figure sooner or latter they will give in..
ToolDoc
I've had some tools for over 20 years that preformed great. Only recently with the help of the Information Highway have I discovered that they are inferior and are not capable of building a decent piece of work.
Sarge,
How true! Guess we guys are easily snookered into thinking we need newer/bigger/better. What we often forget is that a whole lot of great furniture and cabinetry was built for centuries before cryogenically treated blades came along.
I knew an old backwoods carpenter who did nearly all his work - which was quite nice - with a "Swede saw", a draw knife, and hammer & chisel.
Although fine tools are nice, finely honed skills are better.
Jeff
Jeff & All,
Now we've tumbled into an area in which I'm convinced conventional wisdom is flat wrong.
Those early tools were far from the primitive implements so many would like them to be. The Western style wooden plane, for instance, was the result of hundreds of years of evolution before they were even commercially produced. Yes, they look simple but there's a lot more going on that what's obvious to a casual observer. Many of their features and advantages vanished in pursuit of the mass production of the industrial revolution. I'm thoroughly convinced Dutch, British and American plane makers of the mid 1700's were producing planes that could and would go toe to toe with the most expensive "boutique" planes made today and come out just fine.
Leonard Bailey and other 19th and 20th Century metal plane makers weren't woodworkers and didn't understand the more esoteric features of wooden planes or woodworking and I doubt they even cared. Yes, up until about the time of World War I, they did make regular "improvements" in their own designs these were driven by marketing and controlling these designs through patent longevity. By necessity, mass production involves compromises. The kind that left us essentially one compromise bed angle for all bench planes and all woods. Eventually, mass production leads to the very inferior planes Stanley produces today. Sorry but that's the reality of the situation.
Think about this, traditional Western wooden planes were commercially available since at least the late 1600's and continued, little changed, in commercial production until the 1960's. As long as bench trades dominated in Great Britain wooden plane makers served a strong market. The more than 350 years of commercial production of basically exactly the same wooden planes dwarfs the production life of Stanley or infill (Norris & Spiers) planes. Why, because of their advantages.
So please don't casually toss out comments like, "Look at the work of 18th Century cabinet makers, see what you can do without real tools." Those guys were highly skilled woodworkers and designers--they had tools to match their skills and knowledge.
Edited 6/30/2003 11:23:32 AM ET by Larry Williams
Gosh Larry, I'm not sure whether we agree or disagree. I do take exception to your quote, please don't casually toss out comments like, "Look at the work of 18th century cabinet makers, see what you can do without real tools." I didn't say that, and didn't mean to imply it.
The point I was trying to make is that tools do not make a craftsman. While a fine tool greatly eases the task of master jointer, he can still produce wonderful work with mediocre tools, albeit with greater, sometimes much greater, effort. (Don't forget that many old tools, including planes, were shop made. While entirely servicable, they sure weren't machined to the tolerances of a LN, have bronze bodies, or cryogenically treated blades.)
If a well tuned Stanley does a good job, what need is there to replace it with a more expensive tool? On the other hand, if the Stanley (old, or new), is junk throw it out or get your money back.
Finally, isn't the demise of Stanley quality - which began during WWII - more related to market changes than mass production, per se? My understanding is that the rise in the popularity of power machinery at that time caused a dramatic fall in Stanley's sales. In order to survive, the company changed its products to meet the needs, and wallets, of weekend handymen.
Jeff
Sarge,
I bought the Stanley (bet your not surprised..lol) and spent about 1.5 hours getting rid of all the milling marks and getting everything nice and sharp (kinda scary sharp). It works very very nicely...you can see your face in the sole. Don't forget the video on the home page here on tuning a block plane
I'm sure the others are nicer...and come out of the box better prepared...but eventually you need to re-sharpen and if you don't know how to do it the first time..your really stuck
BG
I've used and sharpened planes for quite a while. I have some of my fathers planes since he died when I was 12 back in 59'. I just don't know the fine points of what makes a good plane and what makes a great plane. Never read much about them, I always just used them. I got away from them within the last 5 years altogether with power tools. Except for my block plane which came up missing recently (can we say teen-ager). He borrowed it to take to a freinds as they were doing some speaker cabinets.
I will probably go with the 60 1/2 and try my idea. I use it basically for miter adjustment, cleaning up trim, plugs, etc. All the post recently got me interested in the finer points of planes. I do love the whisping sound of one.
I do have my eye on that Veritas though, as WMP mentioned. All the Veritas products I've used have been excellent. We'll see... We'll see. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
It's more than just milling marks and tuning. Look for a block plane where the lever cap actually forces the iron to the bed over a solid area. I don't know about others but Stanley is decidedly weak here--the lever cap is too short on most Stanley block planes. Many of the new Stanley's I've seen have aluminum lever caps which aren't as good or rigid as iron or bronze, IMO.
Larry
Thanks for the tip. At the price Stanley sells them, I'm sure they have to chince somewhere. That is probaly one place they do it and with cheaper grade steel. I do believe the 60 1/2 does have the brass knobs. It seems a little better made that some of the big box Stanleys I've seen. I will check that as I go shopping this week-end at Highland Hardware.
I might be able to modify that. I have excess to equipment and talent in the family that allows me to do a lot of things I normally wouldn't be able to do. I will look at that point and see if it can be done and worth the effort.
Thanks very much, as this is the kind of input I'm looking for. I have a lot of old planes, I have never taken time to get to the fine points of them as I do some of my power tools. Well, all my power tools I suppose. Guess it's time to hone my knowledge of planes. Been neglected over the last 30 years. ha..ha..
Again, thanks...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
In case you haven't yet seen it, there is a nice article on block planes in this month's FW which includes a section on tuning them. (Strikes me as interesting that the author uses the very plane you ask about throughout his story.) Nice little video of the same on the FW site:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/wvt072.asp
FWIW, I've had a Record for a couple years now and just love it.
Jeff
PS Why can't you affix a plane iron to the sliding table of your BT3000 saw/refrigerator? Might take a bit of tinkering, but I'll bet you can do it!!!
the article would probably short if he had to show how tune up LNs or Veritas planes. I dont think a 1/4 page article would pay that well.......
Jeff
The article is what got my interest up. I would probaly have gotten the Veritas after my son mis-placed my block. I saw the Stanley and you know me, that "What If" function in the back of my brain triggered. ha..ha..
At $30 I might do it too just see for myself. I could order the Veritas today and just forget the whole deal. But, I have ngelected "plane knowledge" over the 30 I've been fooling with WW. Probably time to cram for a crash course and the best way to do that is play with one and pay careful attention to what happens.
You're right, the plane mounted on the TS would be handy. When not using it for planing, I could peel apples and peaches to let it help pay for the investment. When they're peeled I just open the bottom cabinet door on the saw and put them in the frig ready to be enjoyed. Some of the folks that are new probably think we're kiddin' about the frig down there. he..he..
Have a good day...
sarge..jt
SARGE: I have a older Stanley 601/2 low angle block plane & keep it honed to a point that I could shave with it.. has served me well for a lot of years now..
I think you should get one & tune er up,IM sure you will be pleased with it..
ToolDoc
Doc
It's sitting on my work-bench. I dropped by Highland and picked one up. I figure if it doesn't work out, I'll give it to my BIL who has a machine shop at home and has also got interested in WW. He will make an A2 blade instead of purchasing a $35 HOCK. Will make a nice Xmas gift, or maybe it won't make it to his house. We'll see.
Have a good nite, Doc...
sarge..jt
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