Not altogether… but close.
I was considering a new TS for some time. Currently, I have a 220V 1980s Delta Contractor’s TS with the Unifence and Extension, but I really wanted a true cabinet saw.
However, in the interest of taking or semi-bold move, I am foregoing my plans to replace my old TS and instead I am off to purchase a Festool TS 55. Additionally, I plan to pick up a Grizzly G0513X bandsaw (not before the 9/22 Tent Sale though). My old bandsaw is small and stinks. I dislike it so much I don’t even know who makes it.
I am going to try to wean myself from the TS with tentative plans to someday remove it from the shop.
Has anyone done this? What issues will I encounter (I can only think of dados, but I can do those on the router table)?
Replies
I was considering a new TS for some time. Currently, I have a 220V 1980s Delta Contractor's TS with the Unifence and Extension, but I really wanted a true cabinet saw. ......
You answered your own question! 'but I really wanted a true cabinet saw.'.. Go with that!
I think that way but my saw is just a Ridgid BUT it works well and does what I want it to do.. BUT I still think of that 'TRUE' TS that I'm sure is much better BUT would I really notice the difference? If my joints fit now... do I 'really' need something better? Or, should I spend my money on a woodworking class or some other tool 'I wish I had'..
Or maybe get the 'little Lady' something she has wanted but never got because she let YOU get your 'stuff'.. Just me thinkin' again! Gets me in trouble all the time!
My first thought is you will never be happy until you get one! Then again, can you think of any reasons as to exactly why your old saw just won't cut the mustard anymore? If you come up with a really good reason (such as I'll never be happy till' I get one) GO FOR IT!
It's fine to do away with a tablesaw, for whatever reason...... but don't delude yourself into thinking the Festool TS 55 is an equal substitute for a tablesaw. Imagine trying to rip a 1/2" strip from a 12 foot long, 3" wide board using the Festool and it's guide rail. That cut is a snap for any tablesaw, but a nightmare for anything else.
but don't delude yourself into thinking the Festool TS 55 is an equal substitute for a tablesaw..I do not own any Festool products. I think they are overpriced.. And I spend to much on tools as it is..First off, I AM NOT KNOCKING THERE TOOLS! I don't own one so I cannot know. However I was watching a TV show with Amy Devers who I think is a REALLY smart girl.. I think all are but then again I have three daughters and three granddaughters! I'm fighting it alone all my life!
Girls are wonderful!Anyway, I was watching her on one of her shows where she makes free form furniture.. I was thinking of getting the Festool TS 55 until I saw it bog down while she was cutting something I thought was common material.. I forget what she was making and I'm sure the film crew had no idea it happened. Well, I SAW IT! Not sure if anybody else did!As stated, I have no reason to dislike Festool products/tools BUT I saw it and did not get the TS 55.
That is interesting. I had never heard of a T55 getting bogged down. Something I may attempt w/the demo at the store.
I have used the T55 a number of times and I find it superior to any other circular saw I've ever used. Plus, I work with more and more sheetgoods (I have unfortunately discovered that more people will spend more money on built-ins, kitchens and vanities than they will commissioned furniture).
I own a TS 55 and that 1/2 rip would be a piece-o-cake!
Morning handtoolguy...
"
37637.7 in reply to 37637.3
I own a TS 55 and that 1/2 rip would be a piece-o-cake"!... htg
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I ask this question elsewhere to those more knowledgeable of the TS 55 than I (I have not seen then demonstrated) and didn't get a reply. The question is simply, how is the 1/2" rip on 3" wide 12' (or longer)stock done?
My take on the saw is based on what I have seen. Perhaps there is something more I should have a look at!
Thanks...
Sarge..
Afternoon TWG...
If you do majority panel work the FT would be fine, but there is a much cheaper way to handle panels IMO with just as good of results. If you rip a lot of 8/4 and thicker stock in lenghts longer than 8'... you are going to be "challenged" with a FT as sapwood and Will pointed out.
But... the dust collection is great from what I hear! So.....
Sarge..
If the results are just as good, then why do you have 16 feet of painter's tape wrapped around the cut? You certainly wouldn't need to do this with a TS55.
To the original poster, The fact that you were going to try to ween yourself off the tablesaw versus just getting rid of it is OK, because if you simply got rid of it, you would eventually regret it. Too many woodworkers get into the mindset that some tool can replace another tool just because it can perform many of the same tasks. It is one thing to say that a person can afford only one tool, so it needs to be capable of doing other tasks, but it is another thing to call that tool a replacement.
The TS55 will augment your tablesaw, but it will not replace it. There are some cuts that a TS55 will perform better than a tablesaw, but there are also others where it will not. If you didn't have a tablesaw, then yes, you could get by with just a TS55, but getting by is not the same as a replacement.
By the way, make sure you download the TS55 Supplimental User's Manual when you get your saw. It goes into much greater detail than the manual that ships with your saw, and includes adjustments, techniques, and troubleshooting.
SARGEgrinder47 said:...here is a much cheaper way to handle panels IMO with just as good of results.
"If the results are just as good, then why do you have 16 feet of painter's tape wrapped around the cut? You certainly wouldn't need to do this with a TS55".. Rick
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A tad over 4" of 1 1/2' painters tape as it just turns the corner of each end of the panel...
Why..?? Simple.. to get the results of the TS55 that has a zero clearance plate and duplicate it to just as good, I score the 1st layer of ply with a razor knife and then put a piece of painters tape over that. And then the results are just as good. And it's much cheaper as I already have a circular saw.
Sarge..
LOL! And you don't see the irony in this? When I noticed your painter's tape, I had no idea you went through this much work to get a clean cut. But I find it very intriguing that you consider all of this to be comparable to using a TS55. Yes, certainly, you can get good cuts using other methods, such as these, but to classify them as being just as good without qualifying how much additional effort is required, is a little short.I'm sorry. I hadn't intended to get off-topic by my original posting; I was simply pointing out the observation of the tape in a joking way. My main intent was to answer the original poster's question.
SARGEgrinder47 said:Simple........zero clearance......score.....layer.......painters tape........just as good.
LOL! And you don't see the irony in this?
When I noticed your painter's tape, I had no idea you went through this much work to get a clean cut. But I find it very intriguing that you consider all of this to be comparable to using a TS55. Yes, certainly, you can get good cuts using other methods, such as these, but to classify them as being just as good without qualifying how much additional effort is required, is a little short.
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And my original post was to also answer the question ask by the OP about what negatives could be en-countered. I pointed out depth and length of cut which are oblivious even though the question was asked anyway. And I pointed out that there is a cheaper way of cutting panels and get the same finish results.
I did not say that there was a better way to do it quicker and cheaper, simply a cheaper way. If I had mentioned "better" I would have mentioned a Euro slider which doesn't require painters tape either or a panel saw that doesn't take up as much room as the FT set-up. But neither of those ways are cheaper are they?
So no.. I suppose I don't see the irony as there is none as I see it! Irony means the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite it's literal meaning.... an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been expected.
Where's the irony in what I actually stated or the picture I posted? I did not say it was comparable to using the TS55.. but it is in a way with the addition of two extra steps that are cheap. And could you retro-fit a zero clearance insert on a standard circular saw and eliminate those two steps?
Sure you could, but I don't find it necessary as running a piece of painters tape across a cut line and a scoring pass with a razor knife can be done even by a entry level in under 30 seconds. Setting up my home-made MDF jig so the front edge meets the cut line takes a few seconds extra compared to the TS55 only because of having to apply two quick clamps. But... the whole operation takes under 1 minute to do with tape and score. And that's fact!
I suppose I find it intriguing that you consider what I see as a simple and quick procedure "this much work" and "much additional effort". Just how difficult and time consuming is it... that is a better question? Perhaps I have given the normal WW in a shop too much credit as I have assumed they are capable of doing what I described in under an hour without a machine to automate for them and take the "craft" out of "craftman-ship". Then again....perhaps not! I will let everyone draw their own conclusion on that one as I feel they are fully capable of doing.
And sorry.. I didn't mean to get off topic either as seems to happen each time this FT thing surfaces.... why is that I wonder?
Edited 9/16/2007 10:31 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
And sorry.. I didn't mean to get off topic either as seems to happen each time this FT thing surfaces.... why is that I wonder?I know why! You think like I do. Or at least I think you do. I saw nothing wrong with any of your comments. I make statements all the time based on the topic and what my brain tells me is related to it (As I see it).Gets me in trouble but I really am just typing what came to mind and I do not want to offend anybody. I'm to old for that. Maybe when I was younger I did! Trying to keep it brief and type what you want to say is HARD! At least to me. It's not like sitting next to somebody and you can correct yourself when you feel what you said did not come out as you wanted it to.I got your point.. Well, at least I think I did....By the way, I use that painters tape all the time. If only to keep a particular piece from getting scratched.Keep 'Grinding' away 'Sharge'!
Evening Will...
Life is simple... until we find a way to complicate it!
Regards...
Sarge..
Thanks for the tip on the Users Manual. It looks great.But - I had to reload my paper tray.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Sarge,If you need to rip 8/4 and don't have or want to use a table saw, there's always the Festool TS75. It can do 2-3/4 inch. I'm about to pick up the TS 55 myself because I like the smaller size. Of course I'd like to hear from anyone about the pluses or minuses of going with the TS55 vs. TS75.
Evening JM...
Again.. the dust collection on these things is great from what I have seen with their sander, so there's a plus. I would go with the larger TS75 if in your shoes and decided I was going to the FT. And that is based on what I do most.. as every individual should consider for there own needs.
I break down maybe 8 panels a year as 99% of what I do is with solid stock and it comes in my shop often 6/4 to 12/4 with some rough 16/4 thrown in the mix. Once I break down a panel to 4' x 4', it can be out on the TS and sized. I have two MDF jigs to do that. One 4' for cross-cutting a panel and one 8' for ripping. So.. my biggest need is a TS capable of depth and length.
I don't know what you mainly do.. but even if you do both panels and occasional thick hard-wood, you have the capability of both with the TS75. Even if you don't use a full 2 3/4" at the moment, the capability is still there with the TS75.
If you get a TS55 because you don't do much stock over 6/4.. then somewhere down the road "you do".. you are just SOL and it's back to the shopping cart looking for solutions. :>)
Hope that might make some sense...
Regards...
Sarge..
"If you get a TS55 because you don't do much stock over 6/4..."
Another reason to get the TS55 is that it weighs almost 30% less.
-Steve
Morning SC..
And the weight factor comes into play. I just looked at the TS 75 (you guys are making me do my homework :>) and it weighs 13.6 lbs... Whoa.... A bit too much IMO for a 13 amp saw.
If I were FT, I would have bumped the TS 75 to 15 amp and put the 13 amp on the TS 55 in lieu of the 10 amp. 10 amp is more than needed for panels, but trying to convince an experienced prospective buyer that it will cut 6/4 oak, hickory.. ash.. maple all day long without a bog might present a challenge from someone.
And of course, those are just thoughts that I would consider if I were in the market for a saw that would replace my TS.. which I'm not so it makes them just my thoughts ... :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,I haven't needed more capacity than what's offered with the TS 55, but the uncertainty of my future needs as my skills grow and my appetite for big solid wood projects comes about is what's making me waffle back and forth on my decision. I admit that the idea of using the saw as a straight-line ripping saw for rough lumber up to 12/4 is a pretty cool. What's the capacity of the circular saw jig you showed a few posts back?
Morning JM...
37637.25 in reply to 37637.23
Sarge,
I haven't needed more capacity than what's offered with the TS 55, but the uncertainty of my future needs as my skills grow and my appetite for big solid wood projects comes about is what's making me waffle back and forth on my decision. I admit that the idea of using the saw as a straight-line ripping saw for rough lumber up to 12/4 is a pretty cool. What's the capacity of the circular saw jig you showed a few posts back?.. JM
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The capacity on my jig will allow 1 3/4" with the PC 347 right that I use. That capacity would depend on your particular circular saw depth before you subtract the thickness of the jig base. I could use 1/4 MDF on my 4" cross-cut jig and increase that to 2", but I don't see the necessity in my case as I rip on the TS and can cross-cut up to 5" thick by 13" wide on my 12" SCMS. The jig is stickily used for panel on the rare occasion I use them.
BTW.. I wouldn't consider using 1/4" MDF on a 8' long jig if I were using this method without having a TS in the shop. It might have a tendency to flex even with a 1/2" MDF fence stop attached the length? I really can't say as I haven't tried it from necessity. The 1/2" MDF is the way to go for me as it won't flex with another 2" wide fence piece attached. Again.. my use is stickily for panels with an occasional door or whatever odd situation (for me) thrown in the mix.
I can build the jig in under 30 minutes before I glue and screw. In my case I have to run the 1/2" fence through the jointer one pass and remove 1/16" from the thickness to make it clear the under side of my PC circular motor housing so it will ride the fence without any obstruction.
This is just what is best for me.. in my situation with the large capacity of of depth and lenght of cut I have in my shop. Every factor has to be taken into consideration to find the correct solution for each of our individual needs.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 9/17/2007 11:08 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
I got the TS75 because I do a lot of work on entry doors and other thick stock. It is a bit cumbersome, but I did not want to buy the Festool saw twice! (edit: I have a pair of Skil 77's, so am used to a heavy saw already.)The TS75 is nice, but it will never replace a tablesaw for much of what I do.One huge advantage of the Festool system over vertical panel saws (most of them) is that sheetgoods can be cut at any angle and any bevel with one simple setup. And it is truly portable, can go onsite. Another is that the sticky rubber on the guide eliminates clamping the guide on many common cuts, speeding production a lot.Sarge's method is a very good way to cut sheetgoods on a budget. I have done the same for years with an old 8-1/4" Super Sawcat with good results. Cuts 2-1/4" stack in one pass. (edit: stack of panel goods, 3 @ 3/4")Bill
Edited 9/18/2007 2:20 am by BillBrennen
I got a TS55 this year with some gift money and love it for sheet good cutting, cutoffs, etc, but still use my table saw regularly for ripping.
Last month I took 1/4" off a small poplar crown moulding to build a different profile, using a support block before and after the blade to support the crown against the fence. Got a perfect gluable straight cut. ouldn't do that with the TS55.
I am using my table saw less than I had been but would be lost without it
Where there's a will, theres a way. If this is the way you want to go... then just do it. The worste that coul dhappen is your try it for a few months and find out it's not for you. Even then you'll still have the old table saw until you can get the cabinet saw you wanted, and as a plus you'll have the Festoll saw to break down sheet goods.
I don't think the guide rail systems are equivalent tools to the table saw. They're great tools, in certains tasks they beet the table saw in function and safety and of course they don't take up half the shop.... However there are task on the table saw that can not be done with a guide, such as joinery and cutting thin stock. Speed is also a consideration, setting a fence and cutting just seems faster than adjusting a rail on top of a board then cutting. Finally accuracy... I think it's tough to beat having an accurate and ridged fence to register cuts against.
TWG
I almost don't need a table saw.. the only thing a table saw is great at is ripping (everything else needs jigs and stuff which adds another chance at error)
I have one but it's almost the least used tool in my shop.. takes up a lot of space even when not in use and wheeled out of the way..
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I have been super busy and have not had a chance to reply to them yet but I will.
I like crutches.
How did you decide on the TS55 vs TS75? My original wish is for a spendy euro-slider, hopefully someday, but for now, I plan on getting the FT. I also need to trim a bunch of doors on my over budget house remodel and this seems like it'll do the doors and be a good substitute for a slider.
I have never had the chance to use the 75, in fact I've never seen one in person. Also, I am picking up a fairly large bandsaw that will handle the thicker stock.
I agree the Festool will be perfect for trimming doors.
T,
I have the same contractor saw as you, but with a Biesmeier fence. I have also thought of the same move as you.
But I get the feeling that if one moves toward Festool, there is no stopping. It is like Cracker Jacks -- you can't stop with just one.
So for the price of a nice set of Festools, I looked at what I could buy from Lie Nielsen and from Mike Wenzloff. WOW. Interesting tradeoff - one each of every LN and MW tool or one each of the Festools.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm concerned about a FT addiction as well. I already own 4 LN planes so I know I am susceptible. Thankfully, I am very satisfied w/ my Bosch router, sanders and cordless drill.
T,
I have the GREATEST respect for the Festool people. Their tools are wonderful. They test them and test them, and they don't put them into production until they have the bugs out of them. Their tools are highly creative, and impeccably done. I know a few people who buy all of their tools. It is addictive. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A good way to "ween" yourself off the TS is to try making your next project without it.
I've been consciously avoiding my contractor's saw for my current project and I successfully avoided it for my last project. I want to see if I can gain enough skill using the bandsaw and hand tools that I no longer need the TS. I may find that I can get rid of it and free up the valuable space in my shop.
I work primarily with "real" wood. If I used ply, I wouldn't be thinking of getting rid of the TS.
Monte
I was thinking about this thread the other day while I was working away at my tablesaw which I use for both furniture/cabinet making and construction projects. In this case, I was fabricating some white oak threshholds that spanned various thicknesses of flooring. This required beveling the leading edges of the tops, and rabbeting the bottom edges to accomodate the differing flooring thicknesses.
These pieces, once ripped to size, involved making 4, or in the case of two doors, 5 cuts with the piece resting on its edge on the table. Some of these cuts were simple rips and some were 25 degree bevels, up to two inches in depth. Each piece took 3-5 minutes to make on my cheapo TS. I don't own a Festool, but I do use a home-made edge guide pretty frequently with my circular saw. I found myself wondering how this task would have been accomplished on a Festool. I sure wouldn't have wanted to even try to do this with my homemade edge guide!
Any Festool owners out there who can offer some insight into if/how this would be accomplished with a Festool? Can the guide by clamped to the thin edge of a workpiece easily to make something that looks like this when viewed from the end of the stock:
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| |
| |
|/
This view does not include the rabbets on the underside - just the bevels.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I still haven't been down to pick up the FT yet, and after some of the comments I am considering the T75 instead of the T55.
However, couldn't you use the FT's bevel feature, perhaps with sacrificial pieces on either side of the thresholds to support the guidrail? Here is the co's description: "Bevel unit allows you to swivel the blade by up to 45 degrees on the guide rail for clean cut edges even on bevel cuts"
http://festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=3&prodid=561174
" couldn't you use the FT's bevel feature, perhaps with sacrificial pieces on either side of the thresholds to support the guidrail?"
Nope -- at least I don't think so. Since this was cut 25% off the edge (and not the face), you'd need to bevel the saw 75% (!) to cut this if the guide was resting on the face. The only way I can imagine this is possible with a guided CS is to fasten the workpiece 90 degrees to a flat surface to which the guide is clamped -- like maybe clamping the workpiece to the front edge of your bench, and running the guide on the top of the bench.
Given the hassle of doing this, and given that I make this type of cut fairly frequently (e.g., raising panels), I don't think I'll toss out my TS just yet! ;-)
The post just after yours seems to confirm my suspicions -- that you need to make some sort of a jig to do this with a guided CS. Not impossible, but a pain since you can do this on a TS without a second thought. IMO, a guided saw is a wonderful tool, and I use one (albeit just homemade), but I don't think I'd trade a TS for one. Like dados, you CAN do it some other way, but it's a pain I'll not volunteer for so long as the TS is sitting right there.
Now, if I was just starting out, and was considering which to get first, a TS or a guided CS, that might be a tougher choice.
Nah! I'd still get the TS and use a homemade guide when I needed one until I could afford a nicer "store-bought" unit to compliment, not replace, my TS.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Apart from the dust collection and other features of the Festool, I don't think it offers any advantages for this kind of cut. As with any handheld circular saw, you'd have to rig up some kind of a jig to provide more than a 3/4" wide bearing surface for the saw to rest on.
-Steve
TWG,
I've been using Festool tools more and more extensively over the past couple of years. I do own a table saw (a Ridgid bench-top model) but have been using it less and less. It is definitely possible to reduce the need for a table saw down to almost nothing, but there will be certain isolated operations that need a table saw.
Setting up my shop with Festool tools means I only need a small bench-top saw:
I cut down full sheets of plywood using the TS55 and guide rail
I cut most pieces to final size with the TS55 and guide rail
I do all crosscutting (up to 24" width) with the TS55 and MFT
I do all miters with the TS55 and MFT
I do all dadoes on the MFT with a Festool router (stock up to 24" width)
I use the band saw for narrow stock.
Not too much left for the table saw to do.
Edited 9/24/2007 9:52 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Have you had issues with the T55 bogging down?
Others had mentioned this and I am considering the T75 instead. I am going to wait a week or so until they get a T75 for me to try first though.
TWG,
I have not had issues with the TS55 bogging down. But with the TS55, the motor "shifts" as you cut. It adjusts to the cutting needs. If you are watching someone use this saw on TV, the sound may create an illusion that the saw is slowing down.Regarding the discussion of the TS55 vs. the TS75, there has been extensive discussion about this on the Festool Owners Group. Even though the TS75 has more cut depth, most people still seem to prefer the TS55.
But with the TS55, the motor "shifts" as you cut. It adjusts to the cutting needs. If you are watching someone use this saw on TV, the sound may create an illusion that the saw is slowing down.I posted that statement because I did think that the saw 'bogged' down while cutting.. I was NOT aware that the saw speed changed during a cut. Thanks for the info. I'll have to apologize to Festool folks.
I own a Festool T55. Its an awesome field tool. I love it to death, and used it put a straight edge on 14' long lumber for a job( no interest in wrestling the pieces over my 6" jointer) . It is in no way a substitute for a regular tablesaw for standard use. If time is no object, and accuracy is not a major problem ( repeatable cuts) then I suppose you could use it as your main saw.
Charlie,
You wrote, "If time is no object, and accuracy is not a major problem ( repeatable cuts) then I suppose you could use it as your main saw."Just last night, I put together a book shelf and cut all the pieces using my TS55 and guide rails. I had my table saw right there, but decided to use the Festool tools. I did all the rips and cross-cuts, to final size. Everything was perfect.In the beginning, when people are just starting to use the Festool system, it might take a bit longer, and perhaps accuracy is an issue. But by the time you do two or three projects these are no longer issues. In my case, I can work faster, and with the same accuracy, as anyone using a table saw. Also, there is no dust. And if you're cutting melamine or veneered plywood, you get much cleaner cuts.At this point, for me, the table saw mostly just sits there and gets in my way!
Edited 10/1/2007 9:03 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Nope -- the T55 has enough power to zip through anything you are going to feed it. Personally, the only reason I think you would need a T75 is if you regularly cut material thicker than 1 1/2" -- like 1 3/4" doors, or 12/4 hardwoods.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
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