Just to visit this again, I ‘m still weighing my options on veneer blades. Forrest Girl. the Freud blade you recommended seems to be discontinued, or at least I couldn’t find it on Amazon or the Freud site ( I could be just not looking in the right places). Anyway my local Rockler dealer ( I go in time to time to pick up hinges and odds and ends) sold me a Forrest Duraline for about $140 which I thought was OK. I was just about to buy a Tenryu or Amana blade. I haven’t opened the Forrest yet, thought I’d throw this out to you folk first. I’m not a production shop ( thankfully) but I’m looking for a blade that will do a great job and stand up for a while.
Seems also that most of the chat I’ve seen about Forrest says that anyone that can do a decent job sharpening can sharpen
Forrest, no need to send it to NJ. any comments on this one as well.
Thanks again to you all.
Replies
If they can go fine enough and are accurate enough, they should be able to get it right. Most go to 400 grit but Forrest does 600. I have a Woodworker II and have had it sharpened once by Forrest, but I have talked to someone here who says he can get it like new. He sharpens blades for a lot of cabinet shops and after seeing my planer knives, I may have him resharpen it when needed. I asked specifically what grit he grinds with and he said 600. While the Freud blades are very good, he said the carbide on theirs tends to be a bit softer than some. Not as likely to chip but will wear faster. Obviously, depending on what it's cutting and how well it's maintained.
When I bought mine at the Woodworking Show, I had seen the demo for a couple of years but couldn't justify the price. I finally got it and was very impressed by how well it cut. I hadn't used a blade of that quality up to that point, but just worked with what was available to me. When I first opened the packing, I looked at it, handled it, and put it back till I needed it. A few minutes later, my hand was getting sticky and I realized that I had cut my finger without realizing it. Never felt a thing.
Even after resharpening, it leaves a surface that's smoother than anything I have seen coming off of any jointer, planer or other saw blade.
Just once, when going into a woodworking tool store, I would like to see examples of what their various blades are capable of. If you haven't been to the WW Shows, I would recommend it. If you're aware of the usual prices on different tools and accessories, you can save a lot of money. Maybe go to some seminars and get a lot of good info, too.
highfigh,My words exactly, except for the cut finger part.Many moons ago, when I first started my TS with my new WWII, I had to look at the blade just to make sure that it really was on 'cause it sure didn't sound like it did using my old saw blade. The Forrest's run that smooth as you well know. No doubt that is because they are cutting the air so cleanly. Ha!I have two WWII's, one WW! (12 inch), and their dado set. The dado set does what it is supposed to. However, I do not like the little notches the raker's leave in each corner. Just a few days ago I had to switch back to my Freud to cut the tenon's on a frame and panel I was making (actually called a bridle joint). The Freud had 'flat top' carbide tips and that is what I needed.Anyway, Forrest's are tough to beat.Regards,
Phillip
I almost think it's like a Ford, Chevy, Dodge question. People develop brand loyalty. I cannot speak to Amana or Tenryu because I do not own any of their stuff. On the other hand, I own quite a few of the Forrest. My first good blade was a Forrest WWII. It was so impressive, I bought the 80T WWI for the RAS. I followed that up with a 71/4 WWII for my PC circular saw for cutting plywood down to size. Talk about a glue ready cut! I also have the Dado King. I have yet to find a negative on any of their stuff. I don't think you can go wrong with Forrest. I have found the best price (when I purchased last) at http://www.coastaltool.com. I'm looking at the Hi-AT now, and will probably get that one. Good luck on the decision.
Freud makes quite a few different blades that you may not see in stores. There are special models for double face veneer work. The LU series, 92, 97 and 98 have triple chip configurations. You can buy them through their website and they are much less expensive that Forest. I would recommend contacting them with what your needs are.
http://freud-tools.com/
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I use a Tenryu GM-25540 when I want the best cuts. It is quiet and has minimum run-out, you can tell when it is spinning that you are going to get a smooth cut. Read the comment in the link below.
http://www.brentwoodmachine.com/Merchant/..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5C..%5Cmerchant%5Ctenryu.htm
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Steve, I just shot an email to Charles M. from Freud. He'll hop on here soon to give you an up-to-date suggestion. Keep your eye out.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
We are in the process of changing the designation of the F810 HiATB to the LU80R010 which is the same blade with the addition of the red PermaSHIELD coating. Everything about the blade including the price will remain the same except for the added coating. We have received a few of the new LU80s but I think we are currently out of stock on these and the F810s. There are dealers that still have the F810 in stock and possibly some with the new ones. If you like you can call our sales dept @ (800) 334-4107 and see if they know of a dealer that can provide one. A froogle search brings up a LOT of listings but might have to call some to find out if they are in stock.
HTH
Freud America, Inc.
Charles M
I am using your 10" Glue-Line Rip on my MiniMax and like the cut alot. Are you going to be adding a 12"/300mm glue line rip blade._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Michael,The 12" is available now in the coated version (12" X 1" X 30T). Item number LM74R012.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Please five me the part number for your blade that is comparable to the wwII--.125 kerf.
Our Forrest WWII killer is the F410.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
"Our Forrest WWII killer is the F410."Charles,A bunch of us recently purchased the Yeung Chan-specified WWII with the tips of th ATB teeth modified to produce a flat-bottomed kerf.Do you have a comparable product? If so, can you provide the product number and suggested retail price, and let us know if your version is coated and whether you recommend it be used with or without blade stiffeners?Thanks,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
If you modify an ATB blade to make the tips flat you then have a flat top blade and completely change the performance. If that's what you are after you should just get a rip blade that has FTG such as the LM72 series.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
It has been brought to my attention via a private Email that I came across as having a "Superior Attitude". I sincerely apologize to anyone who perceived any of my posts in this light. My intent is to be informative and helpful without peddling wares. It is sometimes difficult in these forums to convey a message properly in a short post and I hope that my meanings aren't misconstrued.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Charles, while I don't currently have any Freud blades, I find your posts to be very informative and frankly, as you seem to be the only company rep interested in posting answers to our questions, I'll be giving Freud blades serious consideration the next time I'm in the market for a blade.Customer service is one of the intangibles that's worth a lot to me.Regards,Leon Jester
Hey, don't sweat it. I did not take it that way, and I'm a forrest owner. You make some compelling arguments, and maybe I'll give them a try some time.
Charles -Please don't let one, or even a few negative email comments prevent you from contributing here in the Knots forum. I've yet to ask any questions with respect to your saw blades but do own both Freud and Forrest. They each have a place in my various wood sawing needs. I appreciate the information you're willing to share with us.Thank you............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
What does it do better than the WWII and how does it accomplish this?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/18/2005 6:14 pm ET by highfigh
Th 410 and the WWII are similar in application strengths but the F410 is double ground for a finer, more accurate edge, it has a stiffer plate and the carbide is specially formulated for the blade (we manufacture our own carbide instead of using generic off-the-shelf carbide from a supplier).Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Charles, I was noticing the other day that Forrest doesn't have any "slots" cut into the body of their blades. Are these anti-vibration devices? Do they pretty much eliminate the need for stiffeners or stabilizers? There's another discussion going on about these devices, and I've yet to find I need them on the Freud thin-kerf blade in my stable.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The slots are indeed vibration reducers and eliminate the need for stabilizers. They are now found on many Freud blades and will be added to many others in the future. Other benefits include better quality of cut, longer life and lower noise.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
What is the equivelant grit of your grinding process? Re: the finer, more accurate edge, as I have mentioned in other posts here, the first time I opened my Forrest, I looked at it and handled it for a few minutes, then put it away. A couple of minutes later, I noticed that my hand was bleeding and I didn't even know I had cut it. I don't know how much sharper it could be. When I cut hard maple, the edge is a lot smoother than any machine-jointed surface I have seen. Also, when I had it sharpened last fall, I had been using it for a long time before I actually noticed a need for additional force when feeding the stock. Is the binder used by Freud able to withstand higher temperatures than everyone else's, is the carbide harder? Carbide hardness brings up another question. I bought the 8" dado set a couple of years ago and during the decision process, I read on the package that this set can be used on melamine and partical board. I was making some(5) cabinets and when I was done, most of the tips of the teeth were chipped. No cheap materials and no forcing while cutting. I never lay the blades or chippers on metal of any kind. Just wood, plastic or back in the case. The set retails for about $129. If you want, I'll post the actual part/model number tomorrow. What do you think was the cause of the chipping teeth?I'm not trying to bust your chops, here. I have a bunch of Freud router bits and shaper cutters, too.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Those are excellent questions. You will see claims of grinding up to 1200 grit and "mirror finishes" but here's the real deal:
Carbide is sort of like concrete in the way it is made. The tungsten particles are like the gravel and the cobalt (and titanium Freud uses) acts like the cement as a binder. Now envision this on a very small scale where the tungsten grains are less than one micron. When you shape the carbide into a fine edge there is less binder the closer you get to the edge. The finer the egde is ground, the less binder you will find. Steel edges dull by rounding over but carbide dulls by shedding tungsten grains. The end result is that while you can acheive a keener initial edge by grinding with finer grits that initial edge will dissappear almost immediately upon touching the material to be cut. We use 600 grit for the best balance of keen initial edge and durability of the grind. On this same subject, the smaller (and more consistent in size) the tungsten particles the better the carbide will hold the edge due to increased binder contact with the tungsten.In regards to carbide hardness, this is a factor of the blend used. There are not a lot of carbide manufacturers worldwide and IIRC most carbide produced is made for metal cutting. These factories also produce wood cutting carbides, usually graded C2, C3 and C4. We produce our own carbide and formulate it specifically for the intended application. For example, rip blades have very aggressive hook angles which produce a lot of impact when contacting the wood and are not used for abrasive materials like particle board so we use carbide that is comparable to C2 for a good compromise of impact resistance and long life. OTOH, the carbide that we make for a laminate blade is the very hardest we can formulate and the hook angles are lower so the tips resist wear. We actually make 7 grades of carbide for our blades that cover the range others use of C2 to somewhat harder than C4 and we use the appropriate grade for the intended application.I can't explain the wear on your dado set without examining it but if it has not been abused, misused or sharpened it should be covered under warranty. If you like you can Email me and I will arrange a return for warranty evaluation. It sounds likely we can replace the set for you.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
I already exchanged it, but I was pretty annoyed when the guy at Rockler A) didn't know what negative hook angle was before I bought them, B) told me that the set isn't made for particle board (even though it clearly says it is on the package, and C) told me that I would have to ship the set myself. It was less than a week old, so I told him I wanted to return the set. I have used the replacements since, just not on PB. I knew carbide was a binder/particle composite. Forrest says that their blades are honed to 600 grit, I don't know who says 1200, but that seems improbable, based on the particle size.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Just to add another wrinkle look real hard at FS Tools and Systematic. The professional WW machinery dealers near me (SoCal) and my sharpening shop recommends and sells these over the hobbist brands. Remember when you're buying a Forrest blade your paying for those full page adds in the WW mags and their expenses to go to all the shows. The pro brands are making a profit and re-investing at least some of that back into their business which will go towards R&D and product improvement. You already paid for the magazine once, why pay for it again? Just one knothead's opinion, it's your money spend it as you wish.
As for me I've ripped a mile of white oak, maple, beech, teak, walnut, ebony... with my 3 year old FS Tools rip blade and I'm just now getting to think it needs sharpening. But then again I'll just probably hit it with some Easy-Off and a scotch brite pad and keep on cutting for a while longer. Rumor has it that Tenyru supplied Makita with the thin-kerf blade that came on my LS1212. At first I wasn't really happy with the saw. It had all the capacity and power of a 12" slider, but the cut quality of the $250 chop saw it replaced. I put a Heavy Duty FS Tools Mitre blade on it and it finally felt like the saw was worth the $750 it cost.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Most companies advertise and go to shows, so they're on pretty even ground. And like anything else, a little shopping around gets the best price. The guy who sharpens my blades and knives sells blades, too. Most of what he prefers is industrial, which makes sense. However, My Forrest WWII has cut a lot of lumber, particle board, MDF, plastic, you name it. When I got mine, it was at the show and cost $90. That's about the best price I have seen on it. Since I am going to buy a dedicated ripping blade soon, I will get one of the industrial ones. If someone will use it a lot, buying something made for occasional use doesn't add up for me unless they're abused so badly that they're not worth resharpening.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
That's a great price on that blade. I'm curious as to how far back that was? I haven't been to a show for 4 or 5 years. Altough I went every years for about 4-5 years before that. It seemed no real deals were there to be had. Couldn't even get H&L sanding disks much under $0.50 buying full boxes and I had all the glue bottles and router pads I needed. The last time Iwent I tried to get a deal buying 2 "D" handle Bosch Magnesium EVS Routers. They offered to pay the tax. Big deal. I used to be able to haggle Junior's Tools for 10%. Anybody else miss Junior's? Especially on Saturdays.
I'm not picking on Forrest, I know they're good blades (esp. for $90) and I have friends that use them. But for $140 I'll by industrial. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
You can get the WWII for $95.00 from Coastal Tool. They have a 20T version of the WWII for ripping for $69.00. I've bought most of my Blades and PC stuff from them.
http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/ab/forrest/forrest.htm?L+coastest+dhwr0921ff153415+1108922802#wwii
Open your Forrest Duraline HI/AT blade and use it. I haven't found anything that cuts plywood cleaner. The WWII 40-tooth (my favorite all-around blade) does it better than some dedicated plywood blades, but the Duraline is best. Just don't use it on those floor laminates (like Pergo). That aluminum oxide finish dulls the blade really fast. But Forrest sharpened it better than new.
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