Replies

1. 
   Samson | Mar 19, 2009 10:00pm | #1

   My latest thought is to make a maple drawer box and use side hung wood slides that ride in grooves on the side of the box.  If I keep the box slightly underheight, it should be fine as it will always be riding on the same line (even as the sides might swell a tad in both directions away from that line).   I then can screw the box to the front on that same line (if I feel I need other screws above or below the line, I just make slightly elongated holes in the box side).  Sound right?

   
   

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   Edited 3/19/2009 3:00 pm ET by Samson

2. 
   oldusty | Mar 19, 2009 10:18pm | #2

       Hi Samson ,

              Again there are many ways but almost always personally I make sure deliberately the face is wider then the drawer box .

       The swelling honestly is only the sides of the box if you use 5/8" or less the swelling in most cases would be insignificant if we use sound design with wood movement in mind the seasonal changes that can happen will have been accommodated .

        The side mount wood will work but it may get tight with solids swelling .

     edit :  or design a slide that the sides of the box are perhaps 1/4" away but the slide strip would bottom out .

      If you can leave enough room for a fastener under the bottom , these remain  concealed to limit the visable  screws .

          hope this helps

                          regards  dusty

   
   

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   Edited 3/19/2009 3:21 pm ET by oldusty

3. 
   oldusty | Mar 19, 2009 10:34pm | #3

     Sam ,

             If you use an under mount wood slides or ? you will get the best of looks and a constant slide system that wont change with the seasonal movement of woods .

         dusty

1. 
   Samson | Mar 19, 2009 10:42pm | #4

   Thanks for the input, Dusty.  I'm not sure I understand all your advice though.  I think I've been unclear, so I decided maybe a picture would help.  See if this was coming through:

   
1. 
   oldusty | Mar 20, 2009 12:15am | #5

     I still think you would be better off with a under guide system that will not depend on the sides for fit .

     You need a kicker above the drawer either on one side or across the center on top the back of the drawer box will hit if the drawer is extended and tries to drop down .

       I just feel you can provide a longer supports underside in some cases then with the side mounted wood  runners  .

              regards       dusty

2. 
   xmike | Mar 20, 2009 03:41am | #6

   In my experience, the "frame and panel" style drawer front is attached to the front of the drawer box as a false front. Thus, the actual drawer front of the drawer box is the structural member and the frame and panel is hung on for the look that you want. Thus, you can make the panel the same way that you would make a frame and panel door - i.e., with enough clearance between the panel sides in their slots and the slot sides to accommodate any amount of seasonal movement - the actual drawer box doesn't see it. Then hang the drawer any way that suits you.Helpful? Have I understood what you are saying?Mike D

1. 
   Samson | Mar 20, 2009 04:04am | #7

   Sort of.  I am planning to make a separate box and attach the frame and panel as a false front, as you call it.  The movement I am concerned about is not the panel, but instead the box.  The box members will get wider and narrower (effectively making the box taller and shorter.  The frame will not move, or certainly not as much.

1. 
   xmike | Mar 20, 2009 04:17am | #8

   Ah!
   There are much wiser heads here than me, but I think that this is handled by making the drawer sides sufficiently narrower that the height of the opening such that seasonal sticking is out of the question. For kitchen drawers, this is easy as you are using mechanical slides and the drawer side can easily be 1/2" to 1" narrower than the drawer opening without impact on drawer operation.If you are counting on using the bottom of the drawer sides as the slide, and the top of the drawer sides (and back) to keep the drawer from tipping when you open the drawer, then you have to design with closer tolerances. I haven't done this, so I don't know. I would choose my wood for the box and look up the movement table for that wood and design my clearances accordingly.Do a search in FWW for drawer design. I seem to remember a recent article that addressed just this concern (could have been in Wood Magazine or Popular Woodworking as well).Plus, keep asking this question - there are some real cabinet quality furniture makers on this forum - one of them will know how to answer this for you.
   Mike D

4. 
   hdgis1 | Mar 20, 2009 05:28am | #9

   Screws from the interior. Either slotted in holes top and bottom or top only. Think it will confine movement to one direction...

   Chris

5. 
   joinerswork | Mar 20, 2009 05:55am | #10

   Sam,

   Simplest would be to make your maple dovetailed box, 1/8 (or more if you wish,) undersized in height.  Attach the frame/panel to the solid wood front firmly along the bottom edge (glue and screws), and allow the top edge to float (screws in oversized holes).  Runners can be of any type, at the bottom.  Movement will all take place behind the panelled front, which will maintain its reveal in the opening.

   Ray

1. 
   Samson | Mar 20, 2009 04:58pm | #11

   Thanks, all.  I think I have a handle on it now.  Just worried about reinventing the wheel.

6. 
   Dave45 | Mar 21, 2009 03:05am | #12

   You make them exactly the same way you would make any other door or drawer front. The only problem is if the drawer front is big enough so that a raised panel (if you use one) doesn't look weird after you mill the profile.

   The only other issue is having enough room for a drawer pull.

   I made these cabinets a couple of years ago and they have inset, paneled, drawer fronts. The panels are 1/4" birch. Each "drawer" holds four of the plastic parts bins. A few weeks ago, the customer said that he may want a few more of them.

   
1. 
   Samson | Mar 21, 2009 03:08am | #13

   I appreciate your reply.  I don't think I was very clear.  I have no problem making the frame and panel.  My issue was wood movement on the part of the members making up the drawer box (and lack thereof on the part of the frame). 

1. 
   Dave45 | Mar 21, 2009 04:55pm | #14

   Oops, my bad.I make 99% of my drawers as boxes with "false" drawer fronts attached to the box fronts after the boxes and glides are installed. I make the boxes from prefinished 1/2" Baltic Birch ply, and the fronts from whatever wood I'm using for the cabinets. Maybe it's because I'm in CA, but indoor expansion and contraction due to weather just aren't major issues. I have one upper kitchen cabinet door that is showing some problems, but it's directly over the coffee pot and gets bathed in hot, moist, air every morning. All of the other doors (oak, raised panel) are doing fine after 10 years. My next kitchen will have some clear space somewhere over a base cabinet so the coffee pot, crock pot, and electric skillet can be used without steaming the upper cabinet.IMHO, expansion/contraction due to temperature shouldn't be much of an issue inside a house since the temperature is usually fairly constant. Expansion/contraction due to humidity can be minimized by sealing all surfaces during finishing.

1. 
   Samson | Mar 21, 2009 05:30pm | #15

   Thanks again.  Two things for what they are worth:

   - finishes slow humitity exchange between air and wood, but do not stop it

   - When a drawer is inset with a reveal half the thickness of a dime, not much movement is required to queer the fit or look.

1. 
   Dave45 | Mar 21, 2009 06:21pm | #16

   "- finishes slow humitity exchange between air and wood, but do not stop it"That's why I said "minimizes" and not "eliminates"."- When a drawer is inset with a reveal half the thickness of a dime..."What kind of glides are you using? Even the highest quality glides have a little "slop" in them which will "queer the fit or look" of a reveal that small.

2. 
   Samson | Mar 21, 2009 07:11pm | #17

   I'm not using commercial glides. I wasn't meaning to correct you in mentioning the finish issue, I was just trying to explain my concern.Thanks again.

3. 
   xmike | Mar 21, 2009 07:33pm | #18

   Ah, heck - build it and see what happens.That's the great thing about being a craftsman - you can just try something, and if you don't like the outcome, you have the tools, skill, and moxie to do it another way.

4. 
   Dave45 | Mar 21, 2009 07:38pm | #19

   No offense taken. I have many faults, but a thin skin isn't one of them. - lolAre you making your own runners? If so, you're going to need some serious precision if you expect to maintain a reveal half the thickness of a dime.When I do inset doors and drawers, I use some gauges I made that are approximately the thickness of a nickel to set the spacing and I doubt if I would even try that using wooden runners.

5. 
   Samson | Mar 21, 2009 08:05pm | #20

   I'll be doing something like this:

   http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=25404

6. 
   Dave45 | Mar 22, 2009 12:18am | #21

   Interesting. I've seen those, but never tried making them.

7. 
   brad805 | Mar 24, 2009 12:51am | #22

   I have been following this thread as I am interested in the movement issues for a slightly different reason.  I would like frame/panel fronts, but no false front.   Even better if i could dovetail them.  I think I will have to give up on that idea and stick with false fronts. 

   Anyway, my first thought when I looked at your diagram was the amount of movement you are predicting seems rather large (1/16" and 1/8").  What are you expecting for humidty changes?  I am not familiar with the climate in MD.

   Brad

    

    

8. 
   Samson | Mar 24, 2009 01:28am | #23

   Well, the amount of movement will vary with how tall the drawer is.  The taller the drawer the more movement.  And call me conceited, but I like to build with the possibility of where the piece might be sitting in one hundred years in mind.  Some grandchild might bring it to Arizona or Thailand, or who knows? 

   I haven't gone to the charts or wood movement calculator, but a swing from winter to summer on an 8" piece of maple of 1/16th doesn't sound too far out of the ballpark.  Maybe I'm wrong?

9. 
   brad805 | Mar 24, 2009 09:59pm | #24

   I understand that the cross sectional area will make a difference.

   Out of interest I dug out some books.  If this is Flat sawn hard maple the shrinkage coeff is .0035 and if quarter sawn it is .0017.  The difficult part is establishing the seasonal moisture content with your finish and climate.  One reference suggests as low as a 1% seasonal variance for areas with low differences between summer and winter and up to 10% for the opposite.  Assuming flat sawn the movement of your 8" board would be 0.056" if a 2% change is expected and 0.28" if a 10% variance is expected.  I know you know all of this already.  It seems your 1/16" estimate is a good starting point.

   Good luck with the project

   Brad

10. 
    Samson | Mar 24, 2009 10:04pm | #25

    Thanks for the details Brad.  I tend to just go by instinct/general experience on those things.  I should do the math so that it doesn't bite me in the butt. 

    I'll post again when I've made some progress and let oyu know how it worked out and what I learned along the way.