A friend of mine loan my a video of his that had Frank Klaus demonstrating how he makes dovetails (Time Life video produced somewhere around the mid ’90s, I think). Anyway, it was truely remarkable. It did, however, bring up a question…
To this point, in my young woodworking career, all I have seen or heard about making dovetails centered around making sure you have the correct, precise angle, depending on the type of wood you were using. Do I really need to worry that much about the angles? Or has Frank Klaus just constructed so many dovetails in his time that he subconsciously knows what angle to use? He did not seem concerned that the angle were perfect. Instead, he just stated it would all work out in the end.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Rookie
Replies
I think that video is completely worthless for beginners at dovetails, as I was when I bought it. Sure, Klausz makes it look easy - that is, if you can cut exact 90 degress by eye and so forth. And it's easy to ski or ride a bike the first time too, if you've done it a thousand times before. As far as I'm concerned the video is just a marketing gimmick so that beginners can ooh and aah over Klausz's skill. It's not the way to learn to cut dovetails.
I watch that video at least once a year.
As he points out, it's practice the makes the dovetail. His method is by far the easiest to learn and apply. Just get yourself some 1 X 4" softwood, (pine works O.K. for this),and whack away for an afternoon. You wont get those fine joints that you see in the close ups but you will start to get a feel for the technique and the wood.
Make sure your chisels are sharp and you have a sharp knife to score the wood fibers at the base of the pins and tails.
Pay particular attention to the way Klaus holds the chisel. That's the hardest trick to pick up.
have some fun!
Bob
I'm new to the handcuts so I'm no authority:
to sharp of an angle on the tails makes them fragile at the ends because of the way the grain runs. So the sharper the angle the more susceptible to chipping. I've also learned a couple of good sharp pencils are better than any awl or marking guage, chisels have to be really sharp, and don't even think about not using a mallet
Part of the reason for using an awl or marking gauge is the small kerf it creates in the wood. It isn't all that significant, but it does help guide the dovetail saw as you make your cut.
If your eyes are as good as mine, try marking with the gauge or awl first, then go over the mark with a pencil.
Jeff
thats exactly what I do now. And for my eyes real good lighting is a must.
Noone has mentioned Tage Frid yet, so I thought I'd throw in a vote for his video, Handmade Dovetails. Excellent. However, like Klauz, he does make it look easy, as all the masters do. Hell, cut 'em out with a circular saw if you want, as long as the joint is tight ;).
I thought the video was excellent as well. Just goes to show you its not the tools. Tage uses a huge bow saw with a blade that looks like he found it in a dumpster in the back of some local sawmill. Yet he cuts these perfect joints.
You know how to get to Carnige Hall?
Rookie,
Klaus is a master craftsman, and perhaps eventually getting to his skill level is a good goal. I don't know. But I do know that a novice trying to emulate a master in any skill, without learning the fundamentals only leads to frustration and failure.
That goes for playing a piano or cutting dovetails or anything else that takes practice and basic skill learning. I read his account of making packing crates and cutting all the pins and tails, freehand with a flexible saw. And they all fit perfectly. I don't doubt it one bit. He literally grew up with those practices being used all around him, and was a skilled worker before he was 10.
And Mozart could make a broken clavichord sound like a magnificent instrument.
There are lots of books and tutorials on the subject that teach the skill from any number of viewpoints. It's not a hard skill to learn, really. But even after you become practiced and confident in your ability to make decent dovetail jounts, you wouldn't be able to do it like Klaus unless you spent time with him and mastered his flair and technique.
Rich
I have this video AND Jim Kinshott's
Frank's is OK but Jim's video is MUCH better for the beginner, He explains it step by step and does one set of Half-blind's..I recommend itmakinsawdust
Hi Ed:
Where could I find a copy?
Could you give us the exact title for a google search?
Bob - Always willing to change!
Edited 10/31/2002 4:34:56 PM ET by 4333
Here is a direct link... He also has a great mortise & tenon video ( i have also)
http://www.cambiumbooks.com/books/joints/1-892836-03-3/makinsawdust
Thanks Ed!
I am ordering one as we write!
bob
I'm surprised at the all but uniformly negative takes on Mr. Klausz's dovetail video.
I learned to cut dovetails with it. I've studied it in some detail (in previous years).
You can't watch it once and get the complete message. I'd guesstimate it took me 7 go-'rounds to feel like I understood it adequately.
I've free-hand cut quite a number of dovetails: drawers mostly, benches, , lingerie chests, etc., since first studying the tape. I confess I review it here when dovetails need to be cut again.
What appeals to me about it is the lack of the need to have a precision lay-out pattern, the lack of having to measure details to the 60th of an inch or to .4 of a mm.
Once you've acquired the scheme, you just clamp up the work and "go to it with your grease and paint."
The aesthetically pleasing geometrically perfect dovetail styles seen on fine cabinetry demand precision work, however, and the Klausz method, in my hands, is not up to exactly duplicatable work. In those instances, careful layout becomes essential.
For men who don't have ready access to a skilled and experienced instructor, the Klausz video is first rate.
FWIW
William
Edited 10/31/2002 6:37:24 PM ET by William
Actually William, I am NOT negative about Franks video...It is a different take on not only making a dovetail but also making a basic drawer. Sure is amazing how he makes the drawer in about 60 minutes. I think his video is more inline with someone who has a bit more experience than a raw beginner. There is a woodworking show coming here in Phoenix in January, I hope he is there...makinsawdust
Rookie,
I'll try to answer your question.
IMHO, no, you don't have to be concerned with the EXACT angle. However you should be concerned with the lay out of the tails and pins, and that they are all pretty much the same angle. If your tails and pins aren't pretty much the same width, pretty much cut at the same angle, and pretty much the same spacing your joint will look a little funny--even if it goes together perfectly.
On various projects I haven't bothered to mark out my cut lines. I've just scribed the depth line and started sawing. It's not too hard to get everything at the same angle (I set the board in the vise at an angle and then cut straight down) and the spacing will be as good as your eye. But whether the cuts are 8:1 or 6:1 or something else doesn't matter all that much--unless, of course, they are some ridiculous angle.
But until you have cut lots of dovetails, until you develop an eye for what good work looks like, I would advise you to lay out everything.
Alan
Thanks! This is what I was looking for... It can be done, but after I have practiced some (ok, alot) by laying out the angles.
I have the video with Frank Klausz demonstrating his dovetail technique and I would argue that it is a VERY good video for the beginner trying to cut dovetails. I DON'T think Frank tries to make it look like it doesn't require practice to master cutting dovetails, but what he DOES do very well is try to remove the fear of not cutting the perfect angles. Sure, it takes practice, but I watched the video a couple times and went into the basement and, even though I haven't applied it to a project yet, after a couple tries I managed to cut some pins and tails that went together rather well. Sure, not perfect, but if you ever watch Antiques Roadshow some of the dovetail work they oooohhhh and aaaahhhhh over isn't any better anyway. Truth is, if you can cut PERFECT, UNIFORM dovetails by hand everyone will think they are machine cut and be less impressed than if they are a bit sloppy. I think Frank even comments on this in the video.
Probably the only negative about the video is that Frank is so fast that watching the video a few times is a necessity.
-Craig
I recommend Ian Kirby's book, The Complete Dovetail.
Rookie, I guess there will be no shortage of opinions on who teaches dovetailing the best way, but for my money, I'd go with Rob Cosman's video. He teaches a method which I believe he learned from Alan Peters using dividers to speed up the layout and takes you step by step from stock preparation to the right tools and why. I took a drawer making class with Rob once and his work is quick but truly exceptional. You can find details at the following link http://www.robcosman.com
From what I've heard, if you had the kind of father Frank had, (an iron-fisted father who became master to the apprentice son), you'd be cutting them as fast as he does too. I've heard a former apprentice from his shop tell stories about how many drawers Frank had to produce per week in his shop and it was mind numbing. His methods and skills are developed from an environment that had few luxuries, the least of which was time.
With that said, is it useful to the hobbiest furnituremaker? Well, he's given hundreds of seminars and many people succeed with his techniques. But as many as have noted here already, it may not be for everyone. My advice is to at least give it a try. You may surprise yourself. Even though he may come off as a bit of a showman, after what he's done with his life, I think he deserves a little show time.
If you want Krenovian-quality dovetails, ones that the students there labor over for hours, don't use Frank's methods.
I also agree with Charles, Kirby's book is good.
Tim
Edited 11/1/2002 2:29:54 PM ET by Tim Sams
Tim
You have good points. I attended a Klaus seminar at Highland Hardware. He does the dovetails like an aircraft on auto-pilot. No time wasted and not one wasted move. You couldn't really figure out precisely what he was doing at that speed. He is not the warm person ( such as Maloof ) that you felt that you could ask to slow down so you could catch on to his method. Wondered why..
I read latter about the experiences of his apprentise days and the thousands of dove-tails he would have to produce in very short periods. IMO, some of the character has carried over from his father. Regardless, he is a master and credit is due.
Went to a Frid seminar years ago, but his demonstration was on joints in general. That was also a pleasure as he is also a master. I will never be able to duplicate like either of them, but they are a pleasure to watch. They get excellent results quickly and do it in a manner that makes it seem very non-chalant.
sarge..jt
I've seen the Frank Klaus dovetail video, and it is wonderful entertainment.
In my opinion, you are about as likely to learn to cut good dovetails from the video as you are likely to learn to be a great actor by watching Al Pacino in one of his movies.
But let's face it, cutting dovetails by hand is not that big a deal. Klaus apparently learned it as an apprentice long before he learned the other things that make him a great furnituremaker. My understanding is that whacking out dovetails in the shops of old was a chore assigned to the new aprentice, while the experienced workers did more skillful things.
Fine Woodworking has printed at least a dozen explanations on how to cut dovetails. The books already mentioned give good guidance. Practice, practice, is the key to learning.
The video does illustrate one important fact (again in my opinion). And that is, in this country, most highly skilled woodworkers can make a living only from the non-woodworking parts of their operation: Running classes, producing videos,demonstrating things at woodworking shows and State Fairs, writing articles for Fine Woodworking.
I do appreciate all that have replied to my initial post and I also appreciate all the helpful suggestions.
However, in my original post, I was simply wondering about the fact that Klaus does not use any type of marking gauge at all.. I had always heard that you need this or that angle, therefore, I thought this was odd (realizing, of course, that he had probably cut thousands of dovetails and probably had the correct angle ingrained in his subconscious).
So... How about another related dovetail question here? Anyone know of any of the suggested video (or others out there) that also come in a DVD version?
Thanks!
Rookie
Don
Good point about the highly skilled making videos, seminars and so forth to make a living. I also have given this thought over the years and have to agree. It makes sense. Time consuming, hand-crafted furniture has to be sold at a very high price in order to be lucrative. Risky business as the market is up and down and there is a limited number of people willing to pay what it takes to get a piece by one of the masters. IMO, of course..
Good evening..
sarge..jt
No, in reality what it means is that woodworkers who don't teach seminars, write books, or write magazine articles tend not to be the ones who show up in, well, books and magazines. You can't necessarily make an assumption about the entire 'population' of full-time woodworkers based on the twenty to thirty (or so) who show up in the four major U.S. magazines on a regular basis.
Chas
I see your point. I grabbed a cup of coffee and thought about it awhile. If you read carefully, I did say masters. Not just full time WW, as I am aware that many do make a living at just that. Your statement made me wonder just how many true masters are out there. Without the public exposure great ones could be under our nose and only locally known. Interesting thought.
I know a professional gambler that would take his dedicated $10,000 bankroll into a casino and make on average about $200 or $300 a day. A lot of pressure and discipline involved in that (I won't go into detail). He quit about 15 years ago to publish and do instruction videos for casino gamblers. Took the daily pressure of battle with the casino's away and he made a lot more money in the long run with greatly reduced risk.
Not looking to get in a debate as that is most definitely not my forte. Will give it some careful thought and watch for any comments that might arise from these post. On vacation and headed back to the shop as coffee break is over. Now that's more my forte. Ha...
BTW, respect your thoughts on using strickly hand tools. I'm a middle of the roader, as I like the best of both worlds. Just a personal choice.
Have a great day..
sarge..jt
Of course "master" is about as loaded a term as "artist." If somebody is making their living exclusively from building standalone furniture, then I'd say they should probably be considered a master craftsperson. I think that the market ultimately would demand one be working to a very high level of craftsmanship in order to make a decent living building these types of works.
My subjective definition doesn't include those whose operations are comprised largely of producing bulk cabinetry made mostly from sheet stock. These people may very well be capable of producing breathtaking solid wood furniture, but if they aren't then they aren't.
In my world, and in 2002, the occupation "furnituremaker" and "cabinetmaker" mean two very different things. MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY.
Charles-
I'm no lexicographer, but in the days of yore, didn't the term Master connote more the idea of teacher than of skill and accomplishment? Of course, who would want to have a klutz teaching him, but still...
I think master also indicated the one who owned the business--the hirer of apprentices and journeymen. My understanding is that a worker earned the title Journeyman when he had demonstrated complete mastery (there's that root again), of all the skills necessary for the trade. Then he set out on a journey to see if anyone would actually pay him for applying those skills. In a shop headed by a Master, the journeyman workers might easily be as skilled as the Master. But they didn't have the stock options.
If the title Master means teacher, then calling Norm Abrams a master carpenter isn't off the mark at all.
Chas
Common sense would lead me to believe that anyone making a decent living building stand-alone solid furniture is probaly a master craftsman. Either they are, or there are a lot of foolish people contributing to making that person a decent living. There are a lot of craftsman that don't do this for income that are master craftsman also. Simply, how I judge their ability is not based on if they make a living building furniture. It is based on self-design and consistency in quality workmanship to produce a superior finished product time after time after time.
Yes, master is a word that probaly shouldn't be used. I reserve it for those I consider that are a notch above expert and have been demonstrating those qualities for a while. Sam Maloof is a master in my eyes. Kresnov, Klaus and others work that I have witnessed in person are masters. You may be one too. I have not seen your work and could not make that judgement.
I agree that being professional is not a free ticket to being a craftsman. My 16 yr. old helps a remodeler in the summer and gets paid a little over minimum wage. By being paid he is a professional in the true sense of the definition. He doesn't have the knowledge or skill of a craftsman, much less the patience and devotion to the craft.
Yep, a big difference in a furniture maker and a cabinet maker. One could be both, or one of the two. But just being paid to do either does not a master make. That requires much more than getting a paycheck on Friday.
These are just my opinions. As I stated before, not into debate so I will fade away. Got to get back to the shop to try to detemine if I as a 30 year amateur by choice am a tinkerer, a woodworker, a craftsman or a master craftsman. May turn out I might be a little of all the above. Or maybe none of the above. ha...
Could turn out I've just had a h-ell of a good time in my shop for 30 years now and that's all that really matters. All but the fact that I try to build it strong, durable and with a lot of what used to be called Pride. THE END..
sarge..jt
By being paid he is a professional in the true sense of the definition.
If professional simply means being paid for what you do, then every employed or semi-employed person is a professional. Doesn't that empty the term of all meaning? Is the kid who gets a regular allowance for doing household chores a professional kid?
In my view, eccentric though it may be, the term ought to connote a level of skill that requires special training to acquire, and, more important, that skill is tested and certified against rigorous standards. The skills are those that cannot ordinarily be acquired by an amateur, no matter how talented.
I'm thinking of doctors, lawyers (hiss), licensed engineers who work independently, architects, land surveyors, and categories like that. Is teaching a profession? Not by my definition, because many of the best teachers (some parents, for example) are talented amateurs. Cosmeticians (I always get that confused with cosmologists) must be licensed, but I wouldn't class them as professionals, because they don't meet the rigor test.
I will not comment on real estate agents, though most are very insistent that they are professionals.
So are furniture makers professionals. I'd certainly accept your definition that they are if they get paid for it, but the minimum-wage earner in the furniture factory is then also a professional furniture maker. Sam Maloof, as I understand the lore, is entirely self-taught, so he fails the talented amateur test, but he is undoubtedly an artist (my definition of artist; wait for the sequel).
Thing is, I don't think the really good furniture makers care one fig about honorifics like professional or artist. Such descriptions, like beautiful or humorous, are best conferred from the outside, not by the individual on himself.
Don
I agree with what you say. I thought about using that word before I posted. I agree with your meaning in full. Please take a look in the Webster's as I did before the post. It doesn't necessarily agree with us. The last little description in mine does say an expert.
Trust me, I am much farther into this discussion than I had wished to be. On vacation and have tons of things on the list for the shop. As I stated, I am not qualified to be a debater. Backyard philosopher, maybe. Ha..
Yep, you shouldn't have mentioned ar---t as you know where that might go and I'm certainly not going there.grin<>Don't have that kind of spare time.
Your last paragraph was excellent and sums up where I really stand on the issue. I have purposely ask Maloof and Frid at the end of seminars as everyone was milling around chatting, "How long have you been an expert". As expected, Maloof just laughed and said that there are no real experts in woodworking. No one knows it all. Frid said basically the same thing but in round or bout way as he grinned. I agree that the real deals don't give a hoot if they're called professional, experts or artist.
That's my own attitude toward WW as I basically stated last post. As long as I'm satisfied with my efforts and results, I really give a hoot what others think. I never considered doing this for a living. If I did, I would have to satisfy the public to pay the mortgage. I pay the mortgage another way and that allows me to design and craft on my own terms, not the customers. Am I an amateur, sure. Do I love the craft and take pride in my work. Am I capable as a amateur of exhibiting the high level of skill necessary to produce quality. I will answer it this way, a fellow Georgian by the name of Bobby Jones was an amateur. He also won the Grand Slam and about everything else feasible in his hobby, craft or skill. Nuff said and way too much. Again, .. The End.........
Have a good evening, sir..
sarge..jt
All I'm saying is that given the nature of the customer who buys furniture from an individual craftsperson it would be hard to foist crap on the market on a regular basis. I've found customers and potential customers to be unusually well-informed and discriminating people.
Don I'm not sure that your recap of the apprentice system really applies here since many master craftspeople prefer to work alone and do not take on apprentices as shop help. The whole master-apprentice-journeyman nomenclature is related to the guild concept (I think) which really no longer exists, as least in furnituremaking. I'm not aware of any guilds who regulate the profession of furnituremaking. I think there are a few guilds in the northeast that are more marketing associations than anything else.
I'm not sure that those who have chosen to write and be featured in videos couldn't make a perfectly decent living without having done so. However, in other threads in the past I've wondered the same thing.
It seems to me that the reason many of these "masters", Klausz, Maloof, Frid, etc... are able to make a substantial living on their wood working alone. They get involved in the videos, magazines, books and all to educate others. Sure they get an income for it but I don't think that is their primary focus. They have a knowledge, skill and love of the craft and a desire to teach others those skills.
Chas
Here I go again as I need to be in the shop. Ha.. Yes, I agree with what you're saying about the customer buying high-end furniture is usually informed. They may not be able to relate to how a dovetail is cut or a tenon prepared, but they can see the over-all quality when they view. It's hard to disquise quality. They may not appreciate the skill and labor of love that went into design and finish of the product. But they do appreciate the quality itself. You, as a craftsman have to get your satisfaction from that appreciation and the check you recieve. If you want more than that, you will have to look to fellow craftsman to say, great design Chas, dovetails are perfect, or the finish is nothing short of genius. We understand the road you traveled to get to that quality piece.
I see the same thing every veterans day. To most a national holiday and a day off. The folks that usually show at special functions in honor of veterans are for the most part veterans. We understand the sacrifice laid down by those that served with honor.
There are several here that may qualify as masters. They will probaly never get the recognition that they deserve. You may very well be there yourself. I don't know as I stated. This is just life. Life is not always fair for any of us. We just have to get used to it and play the cards that are dealt.
As for myself, I'm just a wood-worker. The joy comes from the wood and tools them-selves. The spirit of trees..Kodama Hopefully, when I have departed that joy will be passed to generaions to come in the quality piece that I had so much pleasure creating.
Back to the shop, I'm too dumb for the debate team..ha..
sarge..jt
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