How can I keep the water bath for my waterstones from freezing? My shop is only heated when I am in it.
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Replies
Take them inside.
Put them inside an old refrigerator with a light bulb burning.
What do you do with your adhesives and any waterborne finishes?
I dont use waterborn finishes and the adhesives (glue bottles) are alot easier to move around than a big box of watersoaked waterstones.
Ummmmm, how 'bout a fishtank heater? We use a heating element in the trough outside (1/2 of a 55 gallon drum) for the horses. Might be a bit large for your needs, but if you collect waterstones like many folks collect planes..........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yet another example of why I love my old oil stones so much.
Edited 11/17/2009 11:17 pm ET by Napie
Even if my shop doesn't freeze it is too cold to have my hands in water. I suppose all that extra work using oil stones could keep a bloke warm but I'd rather make the "sacrifice" and use fast cutting water stones and get back to work.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=44523.3
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I do not understand where this idea that oil stones are more work comes from. Having had and used both I can say for me personally the oil stones are far less effort, less time intensive (rarely if ever needing flattening so basically zero maintenance) and I don’t have to have a washtub of gritty water around to deal with. I just spray a bit of WD-40; swipe the iron a few strokes and I’m back at the wood. But then again sharpening is a personal issue and everyone has their own way that works for them.<!----><!----><!---->
>idea that oil stones are more work <: )I'm just being a butt head and keeping the general sharpening "feud" going. Nothing directed at you personally of coarse.I was traumatized long ago by some badly quarried/cut oil stones and am just stuck on that experience. I am curious enough to get a couple of good ones and have a go.See picsStone 1 was particularly handy because it had all the grit grades on one stone including the grade I call "boulders and scree field". In spite of that it still could not cut metal it just sort of sat there and whimpered. "Boulders and scree field" grit had the advantage of wearing faster than all the rest of the stone so that probably contributed to rounding over the edge. I could get all obnoxious and say I am just not tuff enough to navigate the boooty traps inherent in a "natural" stone and that I require the artificial security of a man made stone of a consistent material engineered to not only cut steel but to cut a specific type of steel but I won't because I want to maintain my street cred of being a tough can do sort of guy here.Oops looks like I blew that one.I know . . . my oil stones are crappy examples and good stones are just as usable as the W/stones. Other wise Garrett Hack wouldn't swear by oil stones. I do need to explore the good oil stones.I had hopes for the white stone 2 but I might as well have been rubbing my knife on a sheet of glass.Being trusting I believed the label on the box. See last pic.I know ( now ) these stones are poor examples of their family but that was my experience when I was like ten or so. I used to pull them out once every few years as I learned to sharpen now they are just ballast in the keel of life. I can't throw them away though.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Jeez roc they look just like my auntie Ethel's gall stones she keeps in a bottle on the mantle.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Ooooh nice ~I was going to PS: ( you know how I love to do that ) but will put it here now.Note the black smear on the white stone. Just pulling them out of the box I picked up this black goop on my fingers and wound up getting it on the stone. I am a little unclear how to prevent this from getting on my wood work while handling the stones in the shop.Then there is the imagined scenario in my pea brain that OK I wipe off a stone and the blade with a rag and start in on another stone and wipe that. Isn't it easy to mix up the rags and get the grit from like three days ago from the coarse stone on the fine stone? Not to mention the spill onto my working surface getting on all the stones because I can't rinse it off at the sink and then I am bound to get black metal goop and grit on the wood I am working if I don't "rinse" the blades of all grit etc.Then I imagine rounding over the nice edge just in the act of wiping them off with a gritty rag. I need a steady supply of clean rags that I must keep dirt free ( and saw dust free ) because I don't want to get all that on the stones.I just have too active of an imagination for this oil stone thing. With the water stones I can imagine that everything is rinsed grit free and none of the rounding over while wiping and I never have to go up stairs and wash the black stuff off my hands because there is no black stuff.I am swooning now I gotta stop and digest all this . . .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
The grit doesn't come off of an oil stone so it is not a worry. My experience with water stones is not good, sloppy dirty water, grit all over the place, they dish out very easy and need to be re-flatened. Oil stones just work, have little if any wear and tear and WD-40 is a great honing oil, no soaking, no grit transfer, no BS. Good enough for the Townsend's and Goddard's and my grandpa, good enough for me, I like simple. But of course to each his own.
>The grit doesn't come off of an oil stone<UuunnnnnhunaThat goes against every thing I know from studying how abrasive self sharpens by friability. Not sure I got the term right but couldn't find that page of notes. I think it is buried on my old computer when I was studying metal polishing and car painting/polishing.My older diamond stones are good examples of what happens when the abrasive is too hard to fracture and self sharpen. Not near what they used to be.Still, you have a lot of practical experience on your side and I have no decent stones to try out so I need to investigate the advantages of oil stones further. I have a gallon of WD and that is a start.Hey . . . who has the best oil stones ? How much is too much to pay ? Sounds like the title of a whole new thread.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I really only use one, a hard white Arkansas, that's it for every tool I sharpen including A-1 plane irons, from the grinder straight to that stone, that is it (I'll post a picture of the shavings, it really works). A good one is $40-$60 but lasts a lifetime. Your water stone experience has jaded you, once you use one the water stones will gather dust, IMHO of course...
>only use one, a hard white Arkansas,. . . from the grinder straight to that stone,. . . A good one is $40-$60 <ThanksSounds like you take the power grind down pretty darn close to the edge to get a fine stone to take the rest to a sharp edge quick. That sounds tricky not to over do it.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
roc/NapieDiamonds are a guys best friend. Spent 13 years sharpening 250 chisels/plane blades etc per week in a school environment. Gained enough experience to at least know the sharp end from the blunt end. Tried oil, water and w&d on glass. Diamonds did the job quickly, well and with little or no mess. For anything special I did a final touch up on w&d on glass. That's my 2 carats worth.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Back to the OT for a moment ....Don't use anti-freeze.This has been covered in the Tormek forum. Link from the Tormek website.
> 250 chisels/plane blades etc per week in a school environment<Haven't things changed ? In the old days those students ( child apprentice/slaves ) would have been made to learn to sharpen and they better learn dam quick or they get the whip.Now it's " oh my chisel is dull what do I do now . . . teeeeeecher . . . my plane stopped working . . . why doesn't my plane work ? "Yep I was never dropped off or picked up from school either; not once. How would you like to get to school . . . walk or ride your bike?No wonder the Chinese are taking the ball and running with it.: )( just practicing my grumpy old man shtick )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 11/19/2009 11:53 pm by roc
Well, some of my class mates rode over thirty miles to school and sometimes more than twenty degrees below zero. Walking - no - not me. I had only ten miles or so and appreciated the bus.
Am soft.
I grind (hollow) till I get a feather/wire on the edge then just hone on the oil stone. Any more steps than that is just playing around with your tool....
Roc:I've got a pair of Arkansas stones I've had for years. Just checked around and Woodcraft carries what looks to be the same stones (I got mine from Cabelas, they don't list them anymore).Woodcraft: http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2000237/2000237.aspxAs to getting stuff on your work, I have a five gallon bucket of rags, I use one of them to wipe down. If my hands are dirty, I wander back upstairs and wash them with a pumice-based soap my wife gets. If you don't want to leave the shop, you may look into hand wipes they sell for travel. If I want to polish an edge (not something I generally do) I use polishing compound on a piece of leather. If it's large, I buff it first on a wheel.I'm of the "if it shaves, it's sharp" school of thought, I try to minimize the time I spend sharpening, I'd rather make shavings or sawdust.Have a good Thanksgiving,Leon
Those are some good stones at a good price. I am surprised. Thank you.> if it shaves, it's sharp" <be careful here. An edge can be rounded over and cut hair that is curved and bends so the edge can cut it. However when a blade that is rounded is presented to a flat surface at a fixed angle some times the round belly touches the flat plane of the work and does not allow the sharp edge to penetrate the wood as it could if the abraded plane of the blade were flat all the way up to and including the edge.If the last microscopic bit of this abraded area is rounded then the actual edge is above the flat abraded area and can not cut as well as if we are working with a flat blade back intersecting a completely flat abraded area.I have spent a lot of time with stropping, various polishes, diamond paste etc. Unless done on a very flat piece of hard maple or similar wood stropping on a soft surface such as leather is a mistake for plane blades.It is a different story for carving tools because often the surface being cut is not flat and the carver can change the angle of attack of the blade to compensate for a rounded cutting edge.Thank you for your post/info.Hoping you and yours have a fine day of thanks as well,rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
"Unless done on a very flat piece of hard maple or similar wood stropping on a soft surface such as leather is a mistake for plane blades."+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++I use (quel horreur) the top of my table saw. Used to use a piece of 0.250 inch plate glass, alas, it bit the deck and lost.Works fine with W/D paper also. Wipe off any oil/slurry, wipe down top with mineral spirits, good to go. One of these days I'll drive down to the glass shop and pick up another piece of used plate glass.Be well,Leon
I went looking on the web for info on how they sharpened in the 1700s. I had visions of big round wheel stones running by treadle power in a water bath.Like I said an over active imagination. Keeps me entertained; which is more than I can say for everyday "reality".Any way I didn't find much right off. After I gave up I clicked on this site figuring they were going to go on about oil stones and low and behold I struck water.http://www.shavingstuff.com/archives/cat_straight_razors.phppage down until you see the three YouTube videos.The vids are pretty slow moving but the sharpeners of the fancy straight razors are using water. Not sure I want a cat running over the top of a few OPEN straight razors on a table. Might have to cut the vid production short for a trip to the vet. (sorry about the poor choice of words ) Squirt squirt drip drip all over the new Bimmer's leather upholstery.I searched for oil stone on the razor user forum but just got google ads on the side.Can some body point me to info about the Townsend's and Goddard's or just any old dudes sharpening to a razor edge back then.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 11/19/2009 12:23 am by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 11/19/2009 12:29 am by roc
Roc,And speaking of cold water and stones
I suspect Townsend and Goddard just used a plane or just grew beards :)For those that want to get a peek into the almost cultish field of straight razor shaving and sharpening tryhttp://www.badgerandblade.com/Our micro chisel discussions are light weight with these people. It's a hoot.
Most of the old users used a very special mud stone which you can occasionally find on Ebay, then finished with a cloth/ harness leather strop. Normally stropped every day and professionally honed once a month, There were seven day sets for the well to do. After you used a few days, you would send them some out in a revolving blade scenarios. Most town barbers did honing as a side line. Then came King Gillette.You get onto those razor sites and pretty soon you be looking at exotic hand tied Silver Tip badger brushes, $1800 to $6000 straight razors and more ways to sharpen things.
Lions and Tigers and Creams. Strops and stones and DoubleDucks and funny things. Straighters now use everything from Naniwa Superstone 800grit/5000grit to Arkansas soft at 600 grit to 1& 2K Shaptons after the professional hone has diminished.0.5 chrome oxide on a strop is the final touch before you fillet your face.BBGive me four minutes with a razor and I'll give you a brisket. Sweeney Todd (7° shaves) ha..ha
Granddad used a hard black Arkansas (which I still have) on his razors. Great stone and I use it once and a while on some of my tools.
Napie,I think that what was the "mud"stone was. Stopping alone on a 7° edge was probably enough. You could never drop a straight on the floor, the metal was so delicate and thin at the edge, it would simply break at the edge. Either in half or a big scallop.
I'll bet your Grandad had a smooth face.BB
I still get a shave at the barber ever now and again, nothing like a "real" razor!
BB,
Still have all my stuff from barbering days, back in the 70s. Three Double Ducks and they ARE sharp; still use then now and agin. As Napie says, nothing like a straight razor shave.
Lotsa hot towels and smoooooottthhhhhh.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,I thought this one would grab your attention. No freezing water!
LOTS of HOT towels and yes, really smoooooth but you do have to really be awake up before you "L" that blade. At least after your first cup of coffee. :)John
When I’m in NYC I go to my favorite barber just for the shave, great old place on 9th street. $10 shaves well worth the time.<!----><!----><!---->
I heard they are well over $75.00 (plus tip) in the Times square area. $10.00 is a great price and more than worth it.
Things are a lot cheaper way downtown.
The "mud" stone, as you call it, would not have been an Arkansas stone, but probably a Belgian natural water stone such as an Escher or Droescher. They are rubbed with a bit of water and a small piece of harder stone to make a slurry. The slurry is composed of natural garnet crystals which do the actual honing of the razor. Staight razor honemeisters also use another natural water stone known as coticules, which come in a couple of grits. As far as I've been able to find out out, the Eschers are the finest grit and are only used for final honing and touch-ups - about ten strokes or so. The above stones, especially the coticules, are also sought after by Jewish Rabbis for honing the knives used in kosher slaughtering of animals.
You can find out more about all this at:
http://straightrazorplace.com/forums/archive/index.php/f-41.html
Regards, JW
> The above stones, especially the coticules, are also sought after by Jewish Rabbis for honing the knives used in . . . .<For a minute there I thought you were going to go a little further south.Whhheeeeuuu that was close.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Ha! I'm not Jewish, so for all I know they may use them for circumcision knives, too - or whatever kind of instrument is used for that. Although I guess that might be done in a hospital by doctors these days.
Besides the two stones I mentioned there is a third, known as a Thuringan or Thuringian, which comes from Germany; the abrasive granules in those are quartz. They're all of them natural water hones for razors and are pretty expensive. I have an Escher hone, though I don't use a straight razor. It leaves a nice edge, but I really don't think it's any better than a man made razor hone such as a Swaty. Maybe it makes more of difference when used with razors - I couldn't say.
Regards, JW
Thanks for staying on topic...
>Thanks for staying on topic..<did I ? I must be slipping.: )Sharpening is my favorite subject. Well one of them any way. Took me for ever to learn. Yah I got shavings in high school wood shop but nothing close to the surface quality I get now.Now that I have such surprising results with such ease ( in my estimation/experience) it is hard to imagine changing any part of my system. I think others feel the same but about oil stones.I think there are at least two species of human on this planet. Up is not up for both and down is not down for both but sideways for both is straight ahead and so on we go. I am not supposed to get all political so I must stop.There, I flirted with that edge and then pulled back from the brink.Ah guys . . . a light bulb in a box is not going to keep your hands warm. Frank Klausz used a mop that looked like a bottle brush to wet and mop his stones but I still think it is a mistake to mix grits in one common water tub.The stones cut much faster if thoroughly rinsed not just splashed with dirty water from a weeks use. One needs to change the water eventually. Slop, splash, stumble.Why not rinse under the faucet and store in clean water ? Why not sharpen in the kitchen , a stack of blades at a time and listen to the nice stereo where it is warm while sharpening and keep an eye on the goodies baking in the oven and talk with the head chef while she supervises from the couch.Works for us.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Garrett Hack doesn't swear by oil stones, took a 2 week course with him 2 years ago and he told me his best advise to anyone who didn't already own oil stones was to buy water stones.
Where were you forty posts ago ? I was thinking back over the old articles in FWW. He always used oil stones. Sounds like you have the latest news.Chock another one up for water stones.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I definately agree. My assortment of hard and soft arkansas fills out the stable with diamonds available when in a dropping mode. Harry
how about a few drops of antifreeze ? or alcohol .I know thats alcohol abuse .
dusty
I hyave thought about that but I'm not sure how this would affect the stones. I also thought about adding a little salt but havent for the same reason. Thanks for the suggestion.
A birdbath heater might do it, though the smaller ones tend to go $30 - 40. They only kick in when the temperature drops to near freezing: http://www.petvetsupply.com/bird-equipment-birdbath-heaters-and-accessories.html
Jim
electric heated floor mat. use it for your cold feet as well. One example:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_43443_43443
Just a thought - if you go with the heater idea, maybe keep the sones and water in an igloo type cooler so the heater doesn't have to work so hard to overcome the ambient temperature.
Not sure but I'm thinking that checking with a feed/grain store or place that caters to farmers might have an emersion heater for livestock, perhaps equestrian suppliers. We had them for the horses.
Being metal they won't get broken, such as might be the case with the fish tank heaters I previously suggested. Had some second thoughts.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Get a small castoff refrigerator and disable the switch that turns the light on and off when you open the door. Probably a ten watt light bulb would be enough to keep it from freezing inside but you could monitor it with a thermometer. You could store other things in it also like tools you don't want to rust and your cold coffee.
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