I am in need of finding the safest way to rip french cleats on my Unisaw. I have an older Unisaw made in 1958. I ran some 3/4 A 1 maple plywood with the blade angle set at 45 degrees. My Unisaw tilts to the left. I used a sacrificial fence fastened to the left side of the fence. Not too much clearence when running short cleats. and in my view not too safe. I wonder if I would get better results by moving the fence to the left side of the blade and running the material against the right side of the fence. I know it is probably a stupid question however I dont know it all and I am not ashamed to ask the question. I learn new things every day . I know that a soon as you graduate form college you have all the answers. At 65 years and counting I dont think I have the patience to sit thru for more years. Any good ideas would be appreciated.
T.O.
Replies
By what you are describing, are you just ripping the bevel on one cleat?
Turn the cleat over & let the outfall go from the left side of the blade if it is aleft tilt
Rip your stock 2 x the cleat width, then rip @ 45 = results in 2 cleats.
Hope this helps.
To make a French cleat, you don't need the angle to be as steep as 45°. 10°-15° is plenty for most applications. French cleats are fine for a single or short run of cabinetry, but they can be a real pain on a long run if they aren't mounted on the wall straight. I don't mean level but flat in a continuous plane. A steep angle will make it even harder to get the cabinets to seat fully on the wall cleat.
As far as ripping a bevel close to the fence, you can rip on a wider piece and then rip it to the smaller size. You can also move the fence to the other side of the blade. Both of these operations can be a little different than what you are normally used to. When you rip a bevel that will be small, such as a corner backer, you are better to use a wider piece, make the bevel rip, and saw off that triangle with the piece falling to the waste side of the blade. If you try to rip it with the piece between the blade and fence, bevel up, it will want to tip, bevel down it will want to slide under the fence. When moving the fence to the opposite side, there is a tendency to put pressure on the blade, especially with small pieces. This is one of the reasons I like a right tilt, the pressure goes on the table with the fence to the right of the blade. I think this is how your saw tilts, although you said the opposite. Just start with parallel stock and rip off the size you need letting the beveled piece fall to the waste(left) of the blade. you can make miniscule triangles this way.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer
I stand corrected. You are right , the blade does tilt to the right. I t pays to write posts when wide awake. Same goes when running table saws etc. Thank you for your reply
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T.O.
Good advice, except for this sentence:
This is one of the reasons I like a right tilt, the pressure goes on the table with the fence to the right of the blade.
I can tell you from experience that this is one of the best ways to get a hard kickback. Even with a modest tilt, the wood is trapped between blade and fence, and if it is a little bowed and springs back just a bit, it can launch back at you hard enough to stick in you. It happened to me. The offcut hit bone, so it wasn't a big deal, but after I figured out what happened, I always make bevel cuts with the wood between blade and fence on top of the blade, and the waste side under the blade. You still need to control the wood all the way through the cut, but the consequences of a miscue aren't as drastic.
Michael R
"You have to look for possibilities where there are none" Krenov
Edited 4/20/2005 1:49 pm ET by Woodwiz
I'm glad you were not seriously hurt when you had your kick back. I hope you won't be offended when I say, that kick back is caused by the saw operator in most cases. Kick back happens when the work piece gets pinched against the blade, primarily the rear of the blade. It can happen just as easily with a square edge cut, but beveling toward the fence does offer a greater area to get pinched. There are a couple of issues that saw users should understand regarding kick back.Table saws are straight line tools. The stock that is fed on them should be straight and flat. If the stock is not straight and flat, you are inviting trouble. The saw needs to be tuned correctly, blade parallel to the miter ways, fence set with a very slight offset to the rear of the blade. The operator needs to keep the work piece tight to the table and tight to the fence. Not keeping the piece tight to the fence is one of the major causes, you have to watch the fence. The operator also needs to stay out of the path between the blade and the fence. When beveling, is it pretty hard to get hit if you are out of the zone because the piece comes straight back. With square edge cuts, the piece can get launched upwards and back. In either case, the trouble starts when the work piece comes up off the table or away from the fence. Kick back can also occur if the operator backs up with the piece or the kerf closes on the blade. All of these situations are preventable.Ripping bevels is a task that needs the use of all table saw skills. The objective is to cut an accurate work piece. With a left tilt saw, beveling with the fence to the right of the blade, it is too easy to apply pressure against the blade, especially when finishing the cut. The left tilt does keep the good face up but this is less of an issue when ripping. The chance of kick back is very slight but the chance of cutting a bit of snipe is greater. This depends on the width of the work piece, narrow cuts are more susceptible to the snipe. A lot of table saw comfort is what you are used to. I do most of my crosscut, miter bar work to the left of the blade. I also like the right tilt for this type of cutting, the blade tips away from my hands and I can work with the good face up. All the various accessories can help make the saw safer, Feather boards, guards, splitters, stock feeders, clamps are all important but they can't overcome an operators misuse.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks for the lecture. I've only been doing this for a living for 35 years, and I only spent 20 of them running furniture factories, so I didn't really know any of that. I was just the guy who got to take care of any injuries and write up the accident reports, which were fortunately very few. I was also just the guy who was responsible for establishing work methods that ensured maximum consistency, safety, and productivity. We weren't very big, so I didn't get all that much experience. I was just figuring it up the other day, and in our peak years we only ran a piddling 4 million board feet or so a year, making it into furniture. I'm sorry I don't have your level of experience, but I did learn a few things, in spite of my diminished circumstances.
One thing I did learn is that accidents aren't the rule, they are the exception. they happen when people screw up, or when the material does something unexpected.
Another thing I do know is that people make mistakes, either through ignorance or inattention, sometimes resulting in accidents.
You can't depend on perfect materials and perfect behavior, because no matter how hard you try, they don't always happen. I tried to teach my 60-odd employees techniques that minimized their risk even when things weren't perfect.
You can start out with stock that is straight and flat, and if you have a little reaction wood or case hardening, it can hump up or bow in or out when pressure is released. If the wood is trapped between blade and fence on a bevel cut, that is an ideal situation for creating kickback. Same thing can indeed happen with square cuts when the wood bows for one reason or another, but usually not as severely.
I have owned and used both right tilt and left tilt saws, and I have found it both easier, safer, and more accurate to cut bevels on a left tilt saw than on a right tilt, whether manually of with a power feed. Your mileage may vary, but that's my experience, and the base from which it is drawn.
(Actually, I wasn't standing directly behind the blade. It was a pretty small piece of wood, and I got caught by a ricochet.)
Excuse the tone - it's meant to be mildly ironic, not sarcastic, but that sometimes doesn't come through when one writes.
Michael R
"You have to look for possibilities where there are none" Krenov
Woodwiz,
I didn't intend to lecture you or anyone else. I was just putting forth a bit of safe operation info. I judged by Woodman's post that he may not be up to the four million lineal foot level. I also think others, that may be novices, might read this thread. Thinking about safety is a full time job for all of us. I guess my past teaching experience comes to the surface easily.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Michael,Just a question out of interest.Do/did you use a short fence to stop the offcut being pinched between the blade and the fence here?Cheers,eddie
Edited 4/21/2005 9:05 pm ET by eddie (aust)
"A steep angle will make it even harder to get the cabinets to seat fully on the wall cleat." I seem to remember another tip, to rip off the "point" of the bevelled piece to make it easier to seat. Does this make sense?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,
I think it makes sense to rip off the point...remember, as your running the female end of the french cleat that it does not come to a point as sharp as the male end (thickness of the blade). Unless you make your cut deeper on the female side the point on the male side will push it away from the wall...I think.
Removing the point isn't a bad idea, sure could help with splinters on the ragged edge. Seating isn't much of an issue until you try to hang an eight foot run on a crooked wall. French cleats are great for small curios, wall clocks and other such items. The design of the piece needs to incorporate the cleats so they don't show from the side. With utility cabinets, store fixtures, closets or workshops, who cares if the cleats show. You can run a wall cleat around the perimeter and move things around as needed. Many of the expensive closet systems use a metal cleat, stores often use the slat wall system, the metal Z clips are a good option for cabinets and clocks without built in cleats. Those interlocking finger hangers can be a real bear to get get aligned, though. Don't let go until your sure they have fit together.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Speaking of slatwall, did you see in one of the mags recently that they now make plastic slatwall? What a godsend! I've used the MDF stuff in our store, and it weighs a TON!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If the top of your blade actually tilts to the left away from the fence, you should cut your cleats bevel down, with the waste to the left of the blade and the parts between blade and fence.
I would rip the stock in long pieces, and cut to length after ripping. I would also use a featherboard to hold the stock down, because it likes to try to rise on bevel cuts, especially when your blade is set low, as it should be.
If your saw tilts to the right, I would move the fence to the left of the blade and use the same setup.
If you cut the finish bevel under the blade, and beween the blade and fence, any warpage or springback can cause the wood to kick back, I got a small piece of wood stuck into my breastbone that way, long ago. Minor injury, but thought provoking, to say the least.
The points offered above are good ones, and apply just as well to wht I said here.
Michael R
"You have to look for possibilities where there are none" Krenov
... are worn by the Montreal Expos? :)
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
How high would you reccomend the sacrifcial fence be above the bed of the table saw? Thanks for your comments in advance.
[email protected]
T.O.
RJT
The pics were very informative. I hadn't thought of making a sacrificial fence that way. kind of like a dust chute to clear away the debris from the saw. I can see many benifits using that design and a very safe method. Again thank you for taking the time and trouble to show me your idea.
[email protected]
T.O.
For the purpose of mounting cabinets on a wall---
it seems that the beveled cleats might better be ripped on the bandsaw.
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Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
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