I am considering buying on of he new Freud Premier Fusion saw blades for my table saw. It sounds great and got a good write up. Has anybody used one of these blades and can you compare it ot other blades of its type?
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Replies
Hi Dave - The best I can do is offer my impressions of the demo I saw, and my insights of the design. Wish I could offer hands on info.
The demo was extremely impressive....as many shoe demos are, so I put what I saw in perspective. The design concept itself has alot of merit IMHO. The Hi-ATB grind is the cleanest cutting of all grinds I know of. It's usually used in a high tooth count, low hook angle configuration that lends itself to great cuts in veneers and plywoods, though it's super clean in hardwood as well. Freud has take than grind and put it to use in a medium tooth count high hook angle general purpose configuration which gives it the clean cut plus alot of versatility for ripping operations and ues in several materials. They've also given the side clearance a double angle to reduce a tendency to burn. The downside to most Hi-ATB grinds is that the sharp point is susceptable to faster dulling...Freud is using a finer grain carbide than they've used previously which they claim will help improve edge longevity.
I like the concept alot and would love to get one myself. I believe Charles' claim about the finer grain carbide, but even if it does nothing to improve edge retention, I think it's a great tradeoff, because you should still get plenty of working time between sharpenings.
How's that for a theoretical testimonial?!
Someone here just mentioned, in an "aside" to a different subject, that he just bought one and it outperforms his Forrests and everything else. Do an Advanced Search on premier fusion in the past 7 days or whatever, and you should find it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
thanks to you both for the opinions and referrals to the other articles. After reading all I can find, including these comments, I am going to order one and will post my impressions after I have received it and tested it out.
Let me know if you'd like me to confirm that it's ok to use! :D
Yes I would like you to confirm that it is okay to use. I can't find it locally so I have to find a place online that stocks it and I will wait till I hear from you before I order it.
http://www.amazon.com/Freud-P410-40-Tooth-Perma-shield-Circular/dp/B000JNTG76/sr=8-1/qid=1168029840/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7569572-8607110?ie=UTF8&s=hi
Fraud Premier Fusion. sounds like a razor blade. Fraud marketing is like razor blades and laundry detergent. Always having a "NEW AND IMPROVED" or "LATEST AND GREATEST". I'll stay with FS Tool.
DJK
You should check into the geometry and configuration of this one to find out what sets it apart. There's no fairy dust that makes any of them any better than the others, but there are specific design elements that make a difference...and this one's different than any other I've seen.
Edited 1/5/2007 8:25 pm ET by Knotscott
The side-grind is one of the characteristics that contributes to the fine cut. I have their Ultimate Cut-off blade, and that thing produces a mirror on the end of hardwoods. It's phenomenal. I only use it on end-grain that's going to show. If it had to be glued, it'd have to be roughed up with sandpaper!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
DJK,I don't mean to sound argumentative but FS Tools has the "XL4000" series so I fail to see the distinction. The name Premier Fusion may sound like marketing hype to some but there is a logical progression. The P410 replaces our Premier Series F410 (the "Premier" part of the name) and combines the HiATB of our LU80 series plywood and laminate blade with the double angle side grind of our LU85 series cutoff blade (thus the "Fusion").
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
No need to defend Freud around this forum Charles, anyone who has used Freud blades knows the truth. I like the looks of that Premier Fusion so keep up the good work!
Charles,
Is the Premier Fusion blade available in the Felder/Hammer arbor/pin configuration?
Rich
Rich,I will have to check on Monday. 10" (250mm) is the only diameter we offer so far. Is that what you are after?
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Yes, 10" is OK. !2" is better. Rich
Went to a WW show this weekend. Bought one of these because of the results of a demo. Brought it home, took off my WWII and installed the Fusion. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!! This thing REALLLYworks !!
Barry
Ranson, WV
What difference did you find between the two? How old was your Forrest blade? It's hard to believe one could experience a profound difference between a properly-operating woodworker II and the Freud blade. I am NOT taking anything away from the Freud, and intend to get one, but the wwII has already been described to produce flawless results. Rich
When I cut with this blade, the edge of the cut is much smoother than the WWII blade. Oak looks almost polished. Cherry looks as if it has been already sanded. Even pine looks as if it is ready for a coat of finish. You really have to look at the results to realize this.
I LOVED my WWII blade. I went to the show and especially wanted to see the blade that was making such a stur. Sure enough, I watched the demo and was impressed. I bought the blade, brought it home, put it on the saw and started cutting every type of wood I had in the shop. Amazing is all I can say ...
I still like my WWII, but the new blade is on the saw till it needs resharpening.
Barry
A tip from someone who uses another side-grind from Freud, the Ultimate Cut-Off blade. Be tidy and keep it clean. You don't want pitch building up on the sides of the teeth. The blade (any blade) is super-easy to clean if you do it when pitch first starts to build, just put it in a pizza pan and spray it with Simple Green or maybe 409, let it sit for 10 minutes, and brush it with a toothbrush.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the tip!! I try to keep all of my blades clean and lubricated. I do a lot of work with cherry and it keeps it from burning. A little Pam on the blades keep this to a minimum ...
Barry
"A little Pam on the blades keep this to a minimum ..." Works on bandsaw blades too. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
J, as a serious cook( all of my lady friends want to have Sunday dinner at my house NOT theirs) I have banned Pam from my kitchen. Are you now saying that I need it in my shop? Paddy
"Are you now saying that I need it in my shop?" Isn't that where you put the banned stuff? ROFL. I'm a very un-serious cook, so I buy it periodically. Mostly to spray on George when I'm grilling a salmon or some pork chops. Try it (lightly, lightly!) on a bandsaw blade some day, you'll like it. No pepper needed ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have been a devotee of Forrest blades for years. I always send them to Forrest for resharpening and have sometimes been less than pleased with their resharpening service but maybe I have a certain prejudice toward the abruptness of New Jersyites. In any case I'm glad to hear that the marketplace is working and that Forrest may now have a competitor. There was certainly no competition before. I even tried a very expensive German blade (non export item--not sold here) once and it did not measure up to Forrest.
J, I guess it's some kind of fair exchange when the micro-plane goes to the kitchen*( I have heard stories of ladies (formerly of good repute) STEALING micro-plane rasps from their partners shops to do cheese or the wispy lime zests with no bitter pith
All I get in return is this greasy non grease spray. I will look at what is in the can as I wouldn't want MY band saw to contract any strange chemical malady. Peace ,Paddy
*Didn't all the big time TV cooks just wet their pants when they found Micro-plane? I had been using it since it came out and in Christmas of '05 sent many of the LV rasp with the "U" shaped holder to a bunch of happy lady friends(who still want Sunday dinner at my house , not theirs.) pfh
Right!! ... That's where I got the idea !! :-)
CharlesM, I would be interested in ordering a 12" (300mm) Fusion for my Hammer tablesaw. Will the 12" blade be available soon? Also, can Freud drill the 30mm bore and 2/9/46.35mm pin drive holes required? I would rather not sent it to Forrest to be drilled.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
JerryPacMan,The 12" version is scheduled for this year but I regret that I don't have a date. The rebore and pin holes are no problem. Any Freud dealer can order them this way and quote you the cost.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Just ordered one from Tools-Plus best price around. $82 including tax
Thanks for the info. I would order it but I can't find it on their website. Do you have the part number? Was it a special order? Delivery time quoted?
Try the Amazon link above. If you're trying to find it on Freud's website, lots of luck. Their web site, especially the search function, is horrible!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It was a special order just call them and you can use your credit card. I work in Wtby so I went there and prepaid for it. I ordered it last Thrusday still didn't get it yet.
I have seen the cut results that were brought back from a trade show and the results were great.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
thanks all for your feedback. I did find one at tools plus for under $80 plus shipping. It should be here is about 10 days and I will write a review after it is tested thoroughly.
Dave, it's been 2 weeks for me and I still haven't received my blade. I went to Tools pLus today to find out what's going on and they told me that it they Freud is out of stock and the next shipment wont be until sometime in Feb. Let me know if you received yours.
Pat.
I got my Premier Fusion blade a few weeks ago and really love it. It cuts so smoothly that I can glue up with out planing the edges. The crosscut edges are like glass as well.I saw a demo at a show and the person doing the demo told me that what they have over the Forrest WWII blade is the Freud doesn't need a stabilizer.It was worth waiting for and I have bought another to use as a spare for when I have to have this sharpened. I highly recommend the Freud Premier Fusion blade.
Freud doesn't need a stabilizer.I'd say that's pure hype. They are both fine blades. The fact the Forrest sells stabilizers is not tantamount to suggesting they are needed for quality work. Too bad the Forrest rep wasn't standing nearby.IMO, jim
As a matter of fact, the Forrest rep, when he gave his demo in another part of the expo, said to be sure and use the stabilizers on his blade. And I agree with you that both are fine blades.
Neither one of those blades should "need" a stabilizer.....it's more likely that the rep "needed" to sell one! I've witnessed cuts with and without a stabilizer and noticed no difference on my saws, and have seen countless others who experienced the same thing. $20 for a 5" steel puck...not a bad deal (for the rep!).
I submit that perhaps the stabilizer has more to do with the saw than it does with the blade. To wit: When using a Freud on a Bosch 4000 (direct drive), I felt the blade performed better, and the saw sounded better with a 3" stabilizer.
Actually, the Premier Fusion has Anti-Vibration Slots to eliminate the need for stabilizers. Other differences are the HiATB Bevel Angles, Double Angle Side Grind and PermaSHIELD Coating. This could all be called hype but the features really do work.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Can you enlighten me as to what a perma shield coating is and what purpose does it serve.
Brian
I'm curious, does anyone know whether the HiATB will require more frequent sharpening? (IE does the steeper angle dull more readily?)Greg
Greg,In theory the HiATB would require more frequent sharpening. We counter this by using one of our hardest and smallest grain carbides (0.6 micron).
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Interesting.I can see how the shape of a saw tooth could affect the function or utility of the blade (and therefore have an indirect effect on the rate of wear). But, unless the tooth contour creates extreme heat, I question the correlation between shape and wear.So, although it's minutia, the answer to the earlier question might be simply "No, it doesn't require more frequent sharpening".
I believe the correlation between shape and wear is a quantifiable parameter. Hi-ATB teeth have a steep angle that produces a thinner and sharper point, which is far more likely to abrade than a tooth with no point such as a chamfered edge found on a triple chip grind. Perhaps a poor analogy, but in most cases the tip of an awl will dull faster than the top of a flat screwdriver.
Thanks for responding.I hope it's clear that I know finer edges dull faster, but I was slow to accept that shape per se was the causal factor. Saving that composition is critical to the durability, I have (for what little it is worth to anyone else) reconciled my thinking based on psi.Your analogy was helpful. Focusing on the surface area (pSi) contacted, if you apply the same pressure to the screwdriver as you do with the awl, they would wear similarly (given the same composition).IMO, jim
I see where your logic originates. Unlike steel which deforms in use, carbide wears by losing grains. The more acute the angle of the saw blade tip the less binder there is around the grains to hold the tip together. Triple chip blades are the most durable because they have 90° and obtuse angles. Sub-micron carbide is important for the HiATB tips because it results in a stronger tip that is less subject to losing grains.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Brian,PermaSHIELD is a proprietary coating that is a combination of PTFE (similar to Teflon) and aluminum "whiskers". It is superior to standard PTFE coatings because the aluminum adds to the durability and decreases friction even further.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
I am curious to know if there are any empirical studies to support Freud's claims. Whether it is friction or pitch build up, it seems the coated area of the blade, in effect, does not touch the wood.
There have been several studies to back up the coating claims. The first that I am aware of was by DuPont and I believe that was in the '80s. You are correct that theoretically the plate should not contact the material but look at the side of your saw blades and you will see that in real use the rubbing wears the print off of the blade and often leaves resin build up. And the contact is not only with the material itself but also with the chips. Other benefits of the coating are rust prevention and ease of cleaning.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
"what they have over the Forrest WWII blade is the Freud doesn't need a stabilizer"
I have been using WWII (thin kerf) blades for glue joints for 3 or 4 years now, and I don't even own stabilizers. I guess I'd better re-do all those joints! ; - )
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
great point. I like this forum because we get the truth, not some salasman's info.
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