Replies

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jan 05, 2005 07:02am | #1

   aj

   Now, now, don't you cry.  I highly recommend taking a couple of woodworking classes.  If you have the money for the shop, I'm sure you won't mind parting with the cash for a few pointers.  Where do you live?

   On a different, yet consistent note with your Post:  The guy who I get my machinery from (old american cast iron) told me that he sold a customer an entire woodshop full of Oliver equipment, $75k worth, all built the year he was born.  In the 30's, don't remember the exact year.  The funny part is that the guy has never used any of it, he just likes to hang out with his old buddies in the shop.  I wonder if he smokes cigars, that guy could be you.

   Don't get discouraged!!!

   Jeff

2. 
   forestgirl | Jan 05, 2005 08:17am | #2

   Sounds like you may be suffering from tool- and information-overload, unbalanced by unpressured "fooling around" in the shop.  Also sounds like maybe you love fine woodworking (dovetails qualify, eh?) and your expectations are ratcheted up pretty high.  Others' advice to take a class is well placed.  I'd also suggest finding a relatively simple piece that you just like -- for yourself -- go ahead and make it.  Get lost in it.  Don't worry about how many mistakes you make, simply enjoy the process.  When that one's done, find another one.  After two or three projects like this, you'll find the joy in the process and be able to relax more and approach more challenging tasks.

    

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

3. 
   nikkiwood | Jan 05, 2005 09:32am | #3

   I think I detect a droll sense of humor at work here.............

   But on the other hand, I do think there is a subset of people who enjoy the "idea" of woodworking more than the woodworking itself. These are the same people who take more pleasure in assembling and building a drop-dead fabulous shop than they do in constructing a chest of drawers, etc.

   However, I smell something in the wind here that tells me you are not in this category. But then again, maybe it is just the whiff of cigar smoke I am picking up.................

4. 
   BArnold | Jan 05, 2005 10:24am | #4

   "I feel I am dovetailely-challenged. its not that my doves look bad, they are bad, very bad."

   AJ,

   I assume from the wording of your note that you are doing dovetails by hand.  I've never attempted to do them by hand.  I managed to prove how much of a mess I could make using a jig!

   Anyway, I decided I was going to win the war with my Incra system.  I had six drawers to build for a pair of nightstands and decided it was time to 'focus'.  I spent a couple of hours with some scrap and the book and made some progress.  After I was sure I REALLY understood what I needed to do, I made my first cuts in the maple drawer stock I had milled up (still a bit oversize in length).  I was close, but had to tweak the system a bit, then the dovetails started looking like something I'd want on a piece of furniture.  I'll post photos when I get a bit farther along.

   I know that many of you want to stick to hand tools for certain operations.  I'm a power tool junkie and freely admit it.  Sure, our ancestors did everything by hand -- because they had no choice.  Anytime they could invent a tool to assist in a task, they did so.  I'm sure they would love to have a chance to try out a modern dovetailing jig or system.

   Don't give up.  Keep trying and you'll get there like I did.  Next, we'll chat about your smoking -- I'm one of them there 'reformed smokers', so look out!  <grin>

   Regards,

   Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting

   Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.

   Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.

   ---

5. 
   cherryjohn | Jan 05, 2005 03:55pm | #5

   You sound like you could be my twin brothers.  They are the best "read" wood workers in Maine; read all the books, digest all the ads, buy all the equipment................ dont make a darn thing. If I want to buy something I dont already have they can quote what the wood working mags said about it and even quote the ad copy  One of the Twins bought an old Unisaw , circa 1955 or so, in great shape about a year and a half ago and  he  hasnt made a thing with it yet.  I told him he was like a guy who bought a Stradavarius violin but couldnt or wouldnt read music.  I had an old table that I was going to repair.  The table was about 120 years old.  It needed a new leg so I cut one out  for it.  All that was needed was to run it through the planer and dowel it to the center post.  I gave it to the Twins about 2 years ago.  guess what??...still hasnt been done.  they love the smell and the ambiance of a shop.  They dont like the mess

   Wicked Decent Woodworks

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

6. 
   zombeerose | Jan 05, 2005 07:05pm | #6

   I just wanted to say dito to the other posts, especially regarding taking a class.  One of the biggest joys of WW is that it doesn't matter if you are a fresh, wet-behind-the-ears newbie, or a sawdust-in-the-blood seasoned veteran, you are ALWAYS learning new things about WW.  Don't get discouraged about the hobby simply because you are having trouble w/ dovetails.  Try some other joint for a change or build something small. 

   Give the dove a break!

   Z

   "It's not how many mistakes you make, but how well you cover them up."

7. 
   robert1 | Jan 05, 2005 07:32pm | #7

   <<I just wanted to let everyone know that I suck........>>

   Nonsense. Most people who work wood do it for their own satisfaction. They don't have anything to prove. Cutting dovetails is like riding a bike... both can be mastered and once learned can easily be replicated. So buck up my man... get back in that shop and cut 100 dovetails and in no time at all you'll be another Roy Underhill!!! Short of that, there are always psychiatrists and medications to fix any mood or feelings of inferiority.

8. 
   VomSorb | Jan 05, 2005 09:11pm | #8

   You are most likely make one or two errors repeatedly which are causing the results to be poor.

   Are you using a good reference source that thoroughly explains every step?  If not, there are good books and magazine articles out there that might help you.

   Try pins first and use a scratch awl to transer the marks to the tail piece. 

9. 
   CharlieD | Jan 05, 2005 10:01pm | #9

   When I was starting this process--not too long ago, in fact--I suddenly lost one of the assets that I had counted on when I began: a close friend who is a world-famous luthier, a maker of musical instruments. He moved to Sebastapol CA.

   As he was leaving, I and two other woodworkers, both more experienced than I, helped him load up and we all went to lunch together. At lunch, I had only the time for one question, and wanted it to answer everything possible. So I asked: What is the key to accuracy?

   Each answered in turn, starting with the least experienced. He said "Check your work as you go, because each mistake will amplify all subsequent mistakes." Second was a cabinetmaker with 20 years experience, wanting to become a luthier. He said, "Make sure your stock is dead flat, square and true."

   The master smiled. He said: "It's really simple. Make or get a good plan--I mean a good, accurate plan, preferably to 1:1 scale--and stick to it."

   I have followed those three bits of useful wisdom, and my skills and products have drastically improved; and I would like to add that all three must have assumed the availablity of tools that are capable of accuracy. For example, I had a tablesaw at the time that was not capable of accuracy, and when I upgraded it, the difference was nothing short of incredible. Now, I don't advocate bazillions of dollars in tools; I just upgraded to a $500 Craftsman saw (from a $200 one.) But you can't get good work without accuracy. And you can't get accuracy without tools that are capable. That doesn't sound like your problem though.

   So! I'd say that first off, get a good straightedge and square and ensure flatness and squareness in all directions. Use winding sticks to test for twist. Slow down (advice given by another person I respected.) And, start with something small and straightforward like a simple jewelry box. Make sure the plan you use is in great detail--the ones in Wood magazine are great in that way.

   And above all, give yourself credit for the parts you get right, even if there are some that you get wrong.

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
1. 
   ajm | Jan 06, 2005 12:49am | #10

   Cutting doves by hand to me is a mission. I have always told myself that I will not buy a DTjig to compensate for my inability to cut this joint. after I am able to cut them then I would consider a jig only to speed me up.
   My problem really seems to lie in the fact that I cant cut straight. I recently started using a dozuki saw with the hopes it would help but I think it has made it worse.
   I think whoever said maybe information/tool overload along with unbalanced idle shop time ,or something like that, may have been on to something but I think my poor quality work has created that situation not vice-versa.
   I already use mortise- tenons and other joints for alot of stuff. and i already build furniture sometimes that I am somewhat proud of. It just seems to me when you introduce the word Fine to woodworking I get left out there dangling.
   anyways thanks for the great replies I'll try to keep on pluggin' at it besides I have another 16years until I retire maybe by then I will have a clue...

1. 
   Crunk | Jan 06, 2005 01:17am | #11

   Lee Valley has an interesting little jig for a dozuki saw that will help you cut your dovetails.  You might consider this a compromise, or training wheels if you will.

1. 
   ajm | Jan 06, 2005 05:18am | #12

   Well I will say tonight I did cut the best dovetails of my life. There are some gaps (just a few) but functionally good, probably good enough for an unexposed drawer. a couple of things that I did to help myself this time was to use poplar instead of red oak and maple, and I also planed the wood to 1/2" thick. made the joint alot easier to saw straight, and to pare to fit. three more sets and I have a box.... WHEEE

1. 
   CharlieD | Jan 06, 2005 07:07am | #13

   Good for you! After all this, I went out and tried to cut a couple. It was harder than I remembered, and the joints pretty much blow, lots of gaps. I have done good 'uns though. Stick with it. Rob Millard recently recommneded that I examine my technique, so I've been doing that. Loosen your grip; hold the saw so that it is one with your forearm, and you move almost completely from the shoulder. Layout your lines with a knife rather than a pencil; carefully deepen the lines until the saw has a nice line to start off of. Go very slowly (I assume speed will come with practice. And make sure that stock is flat square and true! Good luck, let us know.CharlieCharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

2. 
   BG | Jan 06, 2005 03:19pm | #15

   aj,

   A little advice from a newbie, cutting a good dovetail is well within the scope of your abilities...cutting great dovetails takes tons of practice and frequent application.  A woodworking course would really help but the answers are all there in the reading and tapes you have reviewed...your just not hearing their advice and connecting the dots.  I have great difficulty sometimes hearing others advice...I need to translate their words into pictures I can relate too.

   Cutting a dovetail is two processes...layout process and sawing/chopping straight.  Sawing straight is similar to shooting pool..it requires you make ridig every joint in your body and just allow the shoulder joint to rotate forward and back...with pool its the elbow joint. That's it, you have become a table saw.  Almost all the advice you get on cutting dovetails on those tapes is directed at putting your stock and your body in a comfortable position to execute like a table saw...

   So my point is your not gonna be a great pool player unless you play a lot...and the same is true with dovetail cutting, but good dovetails are achievable...and then your layout process can provide wiggle room for making those good dovetails quite adequate.     

10. 
    GHR | Jan 06, 2005 07:46am | #14

    I don't do a lot of dovetails. The ones I do don't look the best but ...

    I did 2 drawers a couple days ago. Blind dovetails on the front. Through dovetails on the back. They function.

    I cut 8 dovetails over 2 days for some casework. Again they function.

    I expect I will either get better or not.