I have been WWing for about 6 years now and have built some really nice pieces. Well lately, I’ve been working on a simple bench that is 8/4 and has dovetails. I have been working on this thing for about two weeks and am getting so frustrated I have been thinking about quitting because “I stink”.
I have all the tools an individual could possibly need. My wife told me after the building we built for wwing, all the tools and time that if I quit, she is going to kill me. Why is my learning curve so large? I definately don’t want to stop, but am frustrated and don’t know how to react.
I watch David Marks quite a bit and learn from his works. Maybe I am expecting too much of myself? Any advice from the veterans here?
Jeff
Replies
Give yourself a break...
And give that piece you're working on a break, too. Seriously. Walk away from it, do something else, come back when you're ready.
I was forced, literally, to learn my skills on samples. Might have been two years before I was allowed to flex muscles on a client project. Try that approach. Build sample dovetails, veneered boards, compound cuts, radius curves, whatever. You'll build skills, confidence and a better understanding of all those tools you bought.
I've been pursuing woodworking, to varying extents, for forty years now. I'm still not as good as I could be, or would like to be. Never happen. Still, I'm better than I was last year. The bottom line is, I have stopped worrying that I'm not the best woodworker on the planet (not even close). I just do it because I enjoy it and I enjoy getting better. If at some point you think you are not improving, just look at some of your earlier projects -- you'll see that you have indeed progressed. Bottom line is, "It's the journey, not the destination, that matters, Grasshopper."
Oh, and if you do decide to toss it in, I get dibs on yer toolz! ; -)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike--You stated my outlook better than I could. I, therefore, second your comments.
You know, sometimes I feel guilty because I do not have a specialty in projects. Others often tell me they like certain projects, like furniture, for example. I don't. But, I do like learning new techniques, methods, jigs, etc.
Have a great day, Mike. And, all of you do the same.
Billy B.
Your absolutely right,
Paul
Woodman: A more detailed description is needed of your problem. Do you have experience cutting dovetails? Hand cut or machined? Through or half blind or otherwise? What kind of wood? Etc., etc.?
Off the top of my head, 8/4 is rather thick for dovetailing. The features are rather large for achieving the close fits needed for this joint to look good. You must not be using power tools for such a size. Instead of dovetails, multiple wedged through tenons may be a better approach yet some joinery would still be displayed. If people will sit on this bench, M&T may be the more durable choice also. A good design is equal in importance to craftsmanship.
Cadiddlehopper
woodman,
Beachfarm is correct...give yourself a break. Let's clear up a few things first however.
First, Chances are she'll kill you in your sleep and it'll be painless. She doesn't want a big mess all over ths house, so if at all possible, a quick bullet in your bed should do it. So now that you know that you can stop thinking about it :)
Second, I've got about the same experience as you and I think I'm seeing a diabolical plot with this woodworking. It's kinda like it gives us mulligans with our first projects...and they come out good. If we try to do them again or improve the outcome..it zaps us hard..letting us know what dummies we really are. The good news is the real education in woodworking is in your ability to fix mistakes. So what is really happening is it's becomming more difficult to fix our mistakes..so we're learning?
Making fine dovetails in 8/4 stock is no mean feat. Don't let it get you down if they're not coming out the way they "should". Change the joinery to something else, and move on. You'll come back to this challenge another day.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
The break suggestion is a good one...many times a short or sometimes long break allows one to "see more clearly."
I've always said that I like woodworking because it's a Zen like experience. If you try to force or fight wood, it will win. Each person has to reach an mutal understanding with the species of wood you work with...don't force it, be patient.
Hang in there...it'll come...
Rip
Leave the project alone for a while. In your current state, it will get worse the more you push.
But why don't you describe exactly what you are trying to do and exactly what is going wrong. Some clear pictures would also help a lot. Actually, pictures of the project are really necessary.
So many people try to learn without the advantage of a teacher who has had lots of experience. Woodworking used to be a craft taught slowly at the side of an experienced craftsman. Now we all have to reinvent the wheel, individually in our workshops, using all the shiny tools and gadgets so conveniently available.
If you will describe the problem here, there are a number of people who will have good advice. Then, time and patience will pay off.
Rich
Jeff,
Would you REALLY like to get frustrated?
If so, try this. Go to Rob Millard's website and say to yourself. My next project is going to be as good as anything on this site.
For most of us hobbyists, that is a recipe for disasterous frustration.
Psychologists have a little test. They give you a six inch high post and a ring. They tell you to place the post and try to get the ring over it. Generally you ask where to put the post, and they say "wherever you'd like." You see, they are not testing your ability to get the ring on the post. They are testing how much of a risk taker you are.
With those thick dovetails, you have taken on a BIG task. It's outta my league. But picking tasks is up to you. Like placing the post, it is good to pick a task that is a bit beyond your current skills, but not so far that the learning will be frustrating.
YOU control which tasks you take on.
You control how frustrated you will get.
Wanna get frustrated?
Post a new message on Knots, titled "Skills more important than tools", and try to convince the Knots denizens that instead of focussing on buying expensive tools, that they should concentrate on improving their skills. You will get pummelled, trampled, cursed and villified, besides getting frustrated.
Wanna get a lot of nice mail which tells you how smart you are?
Post a message on Knots saying that folks should limit their buying of tools to only the best.
See! You control the rest of the world, just by selecting the right tasks. You control your own frustration level by selecting the right tasks. YOU ARE IN CONTROL.
Remember the immortal words of Erhard Woerner of E.S.T (Erhard Seminar Training). "If you don't take control of your own life, someone else will."
Hope that helps.
Notice my tag line.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel,
Wanna get frustrated?Post a new message on Knots, titled "Skills more important than tools", and try to convince the Knots denizens that instead of focussing on buying expensive tools, that they should concentrate on improving their skills. You will get pummelled, trampled, cursed and villified, besides getting frustrated.
Wanna get a lot of nice mail which tells you how smart you are?Post a message on Knots saying that folks should limit their buying of tools to only the best.
Truer words were never spoken.
I laughed so hard my wife came in to see if I was OK.
Lee
Lee,
thanks for letting me know that you got a laugh from my message on getting rid of frustrations. By the way, I have read a lot of your messages on Knots. I have always wondered how you named yourself "mapleman". Are you a specialist in the use of maple? Do you make maple syrup? Obviously, it's none of my business, so there is no need for you to answer the question. Idle curiosity just got the better of me, so I used your message as an excuse to ask. If my question is out of line, I apologize.People have asked me what the meaning of "9619" is. The answer is that when I signed up for Knots, I had NO idea of what I was getting myself into. The screen asked me to insert a username. I wasn't in a very creative mood, so I just entered my street address number. If I had known what this was like, I would have done better. (Not a very exciting story).
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
Decided to check back in before I hit the sack, and I saw your post.
As far as I'm, concerned, no question is out of line. My life is an open book (ha ha).
I think I was buying stuff on Ebay before I joined knots. My ebay id is "birdseyemaniac" because, well, I have an affinity for the stuff. Am I a specialist in the use of maple? Well, no, but I build kitchen cabinets for a living now, and that seems to be the wood of choice (at least it is when I tell them how much more it is to use cherry).
So when I first joined knots, I was birdseyeman (because birdseyemaniac was too many letters for the log in id at taunton)
Then, when they reconfigured the forum a while back, everyone had to pick a new name. I tried for "forestgirl" desperately, just to keep Jamie from getting to use it, but she beat me to the punch. (just kidding). I tried "mapleman" because it was shorter, and voila! it worked. Then there was a huge debate at that time about using your real name, blah blah blah, and so I started signing Lee at the bottom of my posts, because that's my real (middle) name, and that's what my friends call me. So anyone here is welcome to call me Lee, or mapleman, because I consider(mostly) everyone here my friend.
Some more insignificant trivia: Evidently all of the forums are linked, so what ever your screen name is at knots, it would be the same at breaktime, over the fence. etc (I did not know that at the time I picked the new name). Come to find out, some poor chap at "over the fence", taunton's gardening forum, was mapleman, and I stole it from him. He's not too happy with me. He calls himself " the real mapleman". That is an absolutely true story.
The name does have a double meaning in my case, as I also as a hobby collect and graft japanese maples. There are about 400 or so named varieties of japanese maple, and I have a little over 200 of them. My next door neighbor's dad came over last spring, and he swore I was growing pot. I had to show him all the little tags on each plant with the name. I really think he was contemplating calling the cops on me.
Anyhow, enough of my rambling. I was also curious to know if there was a secret, hidden meaning behind the 9619. Now we all know the rest of the story.
Take care Mel, I hope I didn't bore you to death.
Lee
Lee,
Great response. Loved the story of your name. Please consider me a friend. If you ever get to Northern Virginia, please let me know. You and your family is invited over for a BBQ, and we can swap some woodworking lies. I am merely a serious (ha ha) hobbyist, but I spend a lot of time at this great hobby, and enjoy it immensely. Glad to meet you, finally. I haven't used birdseye maple, but I just made a cabinet out of curly maple and the family gave it rave reviews. (I think they want to butter me up in case I am writing my will. Unfortunately for them, I have a plan to spend my moderate savings on great tools, and they will have to fend for themselves. To mis-quote John Wayne, "A woodworker has gotta do what a woodworker has gotta do." So excuse me while I dial up Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley for another fix.)Have fun.
MelPS I went to a meeting of the Washington Woodworkers Guild last night and during "Show and Tell", one of the guys said that he had a great deal of problems machine planing curley maple. I moisten it before I put it through, and I try to put it through at an angle, and I take light cuts with sharp blades. Do you have any other suggestions? If so, I'll give them at the next meeting, and I'll be sure to say that they came from "mapleman" -- The really real mapleman"Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Northern Virginia, huh? My oldest brother lives in Arlington. I usually get up there every other year or so and we make a trip into Pennsylvania, where I max out my credit card at places like Groff & Groff and Sandy Pond Hardwoods. My wife keeps saying things like " what are you going to do with all of this stuff" and when she needs a scrap of wood for a DIY project "do you have any spare wood?" Spare Wood? Never heard of it.
I am also but a serious hobbyist. Don't let the fact that I make cabinets for a living fool you. I am no Rob Millard, but I have aspirations to make period reproduction furniture at some point in my life.
As far as the maple goes, I can tell you with birdseye I have given up on all but sanding to surface it. With curly, I have a slight back bevel ground on my planer knives. This changes (steepens) the cutting angle and planes curly maple like it's nobodys business with very little if any tearout. The instructions are in a book I have and I will scan them in and post them back later.
Mel, I am in southern Mississippi, close to the Miss/La state line. If you and your family are ever down this way, look me up and we can definitely get together for some good times. And I am glad to meet you finally as well.
Take care,
Lee
Lee,
Can't wait for the info on the planer knives for cutting curly maple.I don't get down your way much now. After I retire, who knows? and that will be this year. The next time you are going to Arlington, give me a few days warning, and bring your brother's family too. Mary Beth and I will put more water in the soup and grain in the hamburgs, and it will be a good time.Laissez les bon temp roullez! Which as any good Cajun knows, translates loosely to "Rock on, fellow woodworkers", or maybe "Let the good times roll.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
And all this time I thought "laissez les bon temps roullez" meant "where's the boiled crawfish?";)
Here it is. It is excerpted from the book "Double Bevel Sharpening" by Brian Burns. The first page shows how to measure the exact bed angle built into your machine. I didn't bother to measure the exact angle on my cutterhead, the author makes the comment that the most common angle is 30 degreees, so that's what I went with. I had my sharpening shop grind a 20 degree back bevel on my knives and that has seemed to work wonders for me.
BTW I have a dewalt 733, that's the first model they came out with, 12 1/2" with replaceable knves, not the newer model with the disposables. I also had my extra set of jointer knives ground the same way, but haven't mounted them on my machine yet. Oh, and my sharpening guy charges me 2X as much to sharpen like this because he has to remove the blade and spin it around to grind the back bevel. I think I pay $.24 an inch so it comes out to about $6.00 per blade.
Good luck and let me know how it turns out at the next meeting.
Lee
OK, having some trouble posting the attachment. Getting some sort of error message. I will email it to you directly. If you don't get it soon, send me an email and I will reply and attach the scans. Sorry, I'm not very computer literate.
Mel, you can change your screen name any time, and come out with a whole new identity.(no one knows I'm here)!!!!!!
Pedro
Pedro,
I was thinking about switching from 9619 to Mel or something better than 9619, but a number of folks said that they don't like folks using multiple names, or changing their names. By now, the regulars know that 9619 is Mel, and it seems to be working well. So I am going to leave well enough alone.
Thanks,
MelPS
If I were to get a second name, my tag line would read:
Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
I am a schizophrenic.
And so am I.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
Thanks. That poem gets me every time.
Paul
Anything worthwhile is never easy, otherwise you would have bought a bench online or in a store (that would be easy). When i used to take karate lessons (many many moons and about 50 lbs ago) we were allowed to say anything in class except " I can't" if you are having trouble doing something back up and take stock in what you're doing and how you're doing it, and seek help and input where you can get it. Expect failures to pop up here and there but view them as learning experiences.
I am a newbie also and was stupid enough to make my first attempt at hand cut dovetails on framing lumber. I didn't get much but I didn't expect much either since then I have not only learned how to cut the joint but I also learned the proper way to sharpen my chisels and saws. It's all a learning process.
My wife would have never have let me build a shop. Thats part of why she's an ex.
"Why measure twice when you can cut twice"
great idea for a thread "what does your screen name mean?" could be pretty interesting...
cscwem
can't sleep, clown will eat me...
can't sleep clowns will eat me...
can't sleep clowns will eat me....
Jeff
The creative muse that resides within all of us is the worst of task masters. She (yes she) is an unforgiving hellion. By chucking it all you are going to make her so angry that you will beg your wife to kill you and put you out of your misery.
Listen to all the wise advise you already received; give it a break, start something else, redesign to only somewhat challenge your skill level,... but do not quit. JL
"I stink".
Did you forget to take a shower today? Go jump into a huge pile of cow dung, then you can say you stink!
I have all the tools an individual could possibly need. My wife told me after the building we built for wwing, all the tools and time that if I quit, she is going to kill me.
That is a very common threat with today's marriages, what with all the pressures in life. I've heard it many times and it is nothing more than an idle threat at best, besides she stood by you through all the frustrations of building your shop (no frustrations there?), put up with your obvious incessant purchase of tools! She has way too much invested here, trust me.
Why is my learning curve so large? As compared to whose learning curve? OK, go to the nearest tall building and stand directly under one side and look straight up. You are now looking at my learning curve; see you're feeling better already!
I definately don't want to stop, but am frustrated and don't know how to react. This is the easy part. Go inside and tell your wife that you're going out to your favorite restaurant for your favorite meal. Or better yet, you're both going out and enjoy some time in the Jacuzzi followed by the great meal, you may want to reverse these!Now get in there and be off.
Ok you guys, now that they've gone. We've all seen those exquisite tail vises, bench aprons, etc. constructed with beautiful dovetails. I have a question for you: How do you think they were done? Thats exactly what I was thinking! I would be willing to bet they were cut with a handsaw and cleaned up with a paring chisel.
So, let's all get out to the shop, grab some 8/4 scraps and give it a go. Tomorrow we will all report back here with our findings. It's a win win for everyone; woodman takes that much needed break, we get to practice handcut dovetails again, and tomorrow we can the offer some sage advice that will let him finish his project!
Oh boy, I just realized. I think some of the Bosses influence has rubbed off!
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/20/2007 8:15 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Dear Woody,
"A mistake in my woodshop is called a design opportunity"
Recognize the quote? If you do, when did you forget the sage advice you are supposed to be enjoying woodworking by?
I understand you got a nice shop, some sweet tools and a wife who lives with or more aptly tolerates your hobby. You have enough discretionary money to buy nice lumber to build a "dream" bench. Tell me please what is so "stinky" about the situation I am envisioning so far. You're upset because you screwed up a dovetail????? Really?
WILL EVERYONE WHOSE HAS SCREWED UP A DOVETAIL IN THEIR WOODWORKING CAREER PLEASE PUT UP YOUR HAND!!!!!
You got to stop and smell the rosewood Woody! You will probably never be the "best" or maybe not even a runner up, but take the God given talents you got and make the best of it. We can all learn from our mistakes and from some well chosen woodworking courses? Take any courses lately to learn something? Try it because you can always learn from someone in any class and also remember to help someone who will certainly know less than you! In the woodworking pyramid of life, take solice in the fact you're not on the bottom of the pile - but you got a ways to go before you hit the top! :)
So you "pooched" some fine wood in the pursuit of the mystique called dovetailing - big damn deal! Now you got some awesome practice wood to perfect the art of dovetailing - or perhaps it really preferred to be a jewelry box or cutting board. Remember its only wood, the forest are full of it and so are those retailers whose lively hood is to sell to guys like you and me. We make the economy move and shake because we butcher good wood in the pursuit of perfection. We buy that new GIZMO to make us cut dovetails like Rob Cosman, when actually all we need is some nice practice wood to perfect our skills.
So Woody, I am sorry but you won't get any sympathy from me - but what you will get is my respect for pushing the bounds of your abilities and reaching for that next level(s) up the pyramid.
I hope you are woodworking because of that inner fire, that desire that drives you to "do better" and not because your wife will "punish" you.
The day you stop learning in life and woodworking Woody is the day you die - so take solace in the fact you are going to make one hell of a lot more mistakes.
Live long and prosper!
From the man with too much practice wood! :)
Before nature, The Powers That Be decided that my pancreas could use a tumor, I was a plumber (self-employed) for over 30yrs,and on occasion while working on a fixture or boiler or pump etc., even though you knew you were doing everything right it just WASN'T working out! At the point where I knew my head was ready to pop I would just stop... I would put down my tools and leave it. I'd go out and have a smoke or sit in the van or just look at the clouds in the sky. Even when there were no clouds or no sky to speak of. Anything to use as a small or short distraction,and in a few minutes go back and start again. It always worked out. Sometimes it took an extra session but it always worked. If anyone was watching I'd get things along the line of "Wow you're such a patient guy", Wow I wish I had your patience", and so on. But I never saw myself as having any more than the next guy. It wouldn't be professional. I carry that over now in my little woodshop. I just casually put things down and find a small distraction. It still works, especially now that I feel I have less time than most people. You'll feel a whole lot better, and have a clearer head when you return. Although when your wife keeps asking you , "Are yor sure you're alright?, Are you SURE you're not mad?" Thats when you just want to grab a blunt object and really give a good.................
Jeff, woodworking looks simple doesn't it? A bit of wood, a hammer, a chisel, maybe a plane or two. Whack a way at it for a bit, and, hey presto, there's a table. Any fool can do this woodworking malarky. A trip down to the local DIY superstore and out you come with a bunch panels or boards. Nail it all up and there you have a wall or a floor.
At some levels I suppose it's easy to create superficially attractive work with little effort, and that must apply to many lines of work. I'm no mechanic, but I can put a gap in a spark plug and clean the gunk off it. I'm no doctor, but I can take an aspirin for a headache and can recognise a cold when I've got one.
Looking back at my furniture making life I say now that I was probably in the game about five years before I could have been described as usefully competent and knowledgeable. I'd say I was about ten years into the game before I was really getting to grips with the all the subtleties of geometry, styles, periods, techniques, understanding of the subject of wood and wood products--- a good breadth of skills, etc..
Now I've been at this furniture thing for over thirty years I've begun to realise how little I know. I can hardly carve my way out of a paper bag-- and I'm not particularly interested in learning either. My turning skills are rudimentary at best, but I can usually fake myself out of a hole. I have an embarrasment of other shortcomings. But in the end it doesn't matter. I can do what I can do, and what I can't do there's always someone around to sub the job out to, ha, ha. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
That was a really nice message that you wrote to Jeff. I hope that he has some idea who you really are. Coming from you, those sentiments make a real statement. I hope he gets out of his funk. Glad to see the Knots stalwards come to his rescue. You have never heard me complain or whine on Knots, and are not likely to. The one thing that does sadden me a little bit is the fact that so many newbies (and I went through this) get scared to do anything because it may not be as perfect as the stuff they read about. Did I have the right tool, the right technique, and would my tools show up as sharp when photographed with an electron microscope? I think of it as "Paralysis causes by analysis." Luckily, I worked throught that a long while back. Now I look at my mistakes as another opportunity to get back in the shop and figure out how to do it better (not "right". A great thing about Knots is that reading any thread will demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is no "right way". On Knots, everybody does it differently. There is a great message there for the newbies.I added my tag line when I saw it in a post by Jazzdogg. By the way, I believe that I haven't seen his name on Knots for a while. Hope he is ok.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Jeff,
Like everyone else said, take a short break but don't give up.
I regret that when I first got the woodworking bug in Junior High School, I gave up in disgust and did only sporadic furniture work until I was in my early 30's. I lost 15 good years of learning experience. It may sound overly simplistic, but the change came for me, when I began to look at most woodworking as being able to saw, chisel or plane to a line. Broken down to that level, woodworking is actually a pretty simple process and very repetitive.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I began to look at most woodworking as being able to saw, chisel or plane to a line.
Rob, this is a good way to look at woodworking...sort of like eating an elephant one bite at a time.
As for me, I usually take a l-o-n-g break when I get frustrated.
Monte
Monte, if you really analyse what goes into making a piece of furniture I suspect Rob's being somewhat disingenuous about the range of abilities required.
You make a valid point about eating an elephant one bite at a time, but I think Rob would be the first to admit, if pushed, that being good at furniture making really involves a lot more than "being able to saw, chisel or plane to a line."
It's also knowing when, where, why, what can go wrong, and how to avoid it that has a critical effect on success or failure. The background knowledge takes quite a while to accumulate. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I suppose I should let Rob speak for himself, but I found his simplification of the woodworking task into simple but accurate tasks encouraging.
I agree, of course, that knowledge and experience make a great deal of difference in success or failure, which is probably true of most every endeavor.
As long as we're on the topic of frustration, do you think that with knowledge and practice, any woodworker with sufficient desire can execute the techniques involved in woodworking? I guess what I'm asking is how important is natural talent?
If I am frustrated by not being able to adequately execute a joint or a whole piece because of insufficient knowlege and/or practice, that problem can be fixed, but if my frustration is because of insufficient talent, then I might as well quit trying to work beyond my level of talent.
Just a thought to stir the pot.
Monte
Monte, that natural talent question is a difficult one to answer. There do seem to be people that have a knack for certain jobs, and others that don't.
I'd like to say that anyone can do anything if they're willing to put in the time and effort to watch, listen, study and practice 'til they get it right. On the other hand I can think of a few cases where I stood shoulder to shoulder with a learner, literally held their hand with my weaker left hand and we executed the sample together, not once, but several times. Immediately I removed my controlling hand they screwed up every time.
The most memorable was a beginner I was trying to teach how to use a lathe between centres. Simple stuff. Lathe turned off. Put the back of the gouge down on the toolrest. Have the curved pointy end sticking as vertical as possible. Raise the back end of the chisel slowly until the steel on the back of gouge starts to rub on the wood. Slide the chisel backwards gently until you start to get a shaving, etc..
Next, we'll try it with the wood turning. Remember the procedure? Not a cat in Hell's chance. Pointy end of chisel goes straight at the wood, back face of gouge nowhere near toolrest. WHACK. Bazzam! After 30 or 45 minutes of this crapola I sent the learner away and banned her from the lathe forever, much as I regret to say that. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard, Monte,I used to give classes to kids and adults, but I gave it up a long time ago 'cause I'm not cut out for it. From what I saw there are 2 things that are almost impossible to teach. That is, if they haven't already been learned by about the age of 6 then it's near hopeless to try to inculcate them afterwards:1) What I'd call "constructive imagination" - that is, the ability to constantly foresee what's ahead, and how what I'm doing now is going to affect the processes that are to come.2) I don't even know what to call this one - but it's a fundamental awareness of the body, and how it interacts with tools and materials. Some people have a keen intuitive sense of the physics of work; others seem to go through life somehow detached from what their body does. Most people who lack this sense never go into a shop, but they occasionally do out of some romantic fantasy about creating things which is completely detached from reality. They should find the exit as soon as possible.I think that anyone with the second aptitude can be taught to produce fine work in any medium. I think that the first aptitude is also necessary in order to really master the medium.BTW Richard, judging from your posts I'd bet you're a fun teacher and a good one.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Richard,
I may be wrong, but I'm never disingenuous.
The person who was frustrated, did not specifically state the source of the frustration, but I gathered that it had to do with joinery, and joinery when broken down to it simplest form is nothing more than sawing, chiseling or planing to a line. No doubt in time you become faster and more confident, but most of woodworking is simple processes repeated over and over again.
There are some aspects of furniture making that don't fit my saw, chisel or plane theory. Mostly these are aesthetics, such as grain matching or design. From my own experience I believe a person either has an innate ability to design or they don't and it can't be learned or taught ( for the record and I'm never shy about saying it, I have ZERO ability to design furniture, which explains my focus on reproductions). Of course a "good" design is so subjective that there isn't really a right or wrong, but I'm not confident enough to even try.
Finishing is another area that doesn't fit my simple theory, since it is more of an art, with an underpinning of established practices. One of these days I'm going to make a video on finishing the likes of which, I wish I would have had when I was starting out.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Edited 2/21/2007 4:00 pm ET by RMillard
Rob, I wasn't intending to cast aspersions on your character, and the points you make about successfully executing joinery are valid.
Perhaps I should have said 'unintentionally disingenuous.' It's true that executing joinery comes down to the ability to saw, plane, and chisel accurately to a line or mark (set out correctly in the first place.)
But before successful joinery can be done certain other conditions need to be in place, and this is what I was referring to about the deeper knowledge that's required. For instance, I've seen beginners mark out and attempt to cut dovetails on the edge of two boards, not their ends. I've seen them try to mate the edge of one board with the end of another board using through dovetails. It's not unheard of for the inexperienced to try and make a table top and its undercart for indoor use with timber that has an MC between 16% and 20%. Over the years I've taught a lot of beginners, and the elementary mistakes I could list is, er, well, pretty long, ha, ha.
There are some basic errors- such as the three listed above- that will almost certainly lead to failure, but the beginner may not know it until they've tried it, or someone more experienced points it out to them. That's the sort of knowledge I was referring to, even though the point I was making was perhaps at something of a tangent to the original questioner's difficulty. Something that is second nature to an experienced practitioner may be completely unintuitive to someone new to a task, skill, trade, or profession. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
I know were weren't "taking a shot" at me.
If I had time, I'd list my mistakes, so you could add them to your already long list of those you've seen.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob, and Richard,
My predecessor as Scoutmaster in our old troop, once said in a "Scoutmaster's minute" at the end of a meeting, "We get good judgement by learning from our experiences of bad judgement." Another way of saying that, "Experience is a good teacher, but she gives the test first, then the lesson."
If you aren't comfortable with taking a bit of a risk now and then, woodworking by one's self might not be the best hobby for you.
If the original poster can give some specific details of his failure to cut successful dovetail joints, perhaps we philosophy gurus can go back to being woodworker gurus :-) and reducew his level of risk in this instance.
Ray
"It's also knowing when, where, why, what can go wrong, and how to avoid it that has a critical effect on success or failure. The background knowledge takes quite a while to accumulate." Thank you, Richard, that's getting enlarged and posted on the shop wall, with am emphasis on "takes quite a while."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Good Evening all,
Well as usual, I did not take good advice and take a break. I came home tonight and went out to work on the dovetails. This time with a new attitude and I actually think I am getting close. The problem I am having is the bottoms of the pins and tails aren't flat. I lay the board down and chisel half way through and then flip it over and chisel down the remaining half. Problem is, the chisel is not meeting the other side. Is there a better way to create the bottoms? Please let me know if anyone has any ideas on what I can do. I have attached pics so we are all on the same page. As always, thanks for all the help.
Jeff
Jeff,
You know, I would have went out and worked on them too, which makes me a hypocrite.
It looks to me like the chisel is being set back while driven down, compromising the baseline. To avoid this I scribe the line with a cutting gauge and then using a very sharp knife I deepen the scribe line where the waste will be removed. Then angling the knife I take out a small chip, creating a shoulder/pocket for the chisel. At first take a few light taps and remove some waste. Then as the cuts get deeper and the shoulder is better able to withstand the set back force on the chisel, you can give the chisel a good solid whack. I too work from both sides, meeting roughly in center.
Rob Millard
Jeff,
Undercutting the end grain as you move toward the middle and away from the face of the board should also help to keep the layout line intact.
Monte
Sounds like you are setting the chisel in the layout line and whacking it with a mallet.
Applying that much force will actually drive the chisel back of the layout line.
Get rid of the waste with the mallet and chisel, but leave a small amount near the layout line and then pare with muscle strength the last little bit - 1/32 or less.
This should allow you to get the bottom of your pins and tails to line up with the layout lines.
You could also slightly under cut the bottoms for clearance. But do it by paring, forceful blows will move the chisel and you are back to where you are now.
On a different note, to fix what you have done, you could run a second base line and pare to it; or you could fill the gap with a fine shaving.
Good luck!
Mike
When chopping out the waste, don't start chopping at your final line -- leave it shy about 1/32 of an inch. Then, trim up right to the line from each side, undercutting just a hair. The bottom of the joint doesn't need to be perfect so long as it's straight and to the line on the edges. (It's end grain and doesn't contribute significantly to the strength of the joint.) When doing DTs this large, I often simply cut out the bulk of the waste with a coping saw and just trim to the final line with a chisel. It may help to mark your line with a sharp cutting guage, giving you a "ledge" to register your chisel in when making the final pass.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Woodman, sorry to say I can't help you with the dovetails, and I'm definitely not a "veteran" in woodworking, but I am experienced with the frustration of which you speak, both in woodworking and other fields. It's time to get things in perspective. The first step is to get a balanced view of what you've accomplished. Specifically, don't let the devilish dovetails become bigger than "the really nice pieces" you've built. Take a look at those, revel in them, and give yourself the major credit you deserve.
Next step is to get back in touch with the enjoyment of woodworking. Yep, it may be time to set those dovetails aside for awhile. But if you simply can't do that, then get some help from the pros here, find out why they're presenting such difficulties, and work the problems out one by one.
Remember, people like David Marks make woodworking look easy. It's anything but! And in any complex persuit, there's always a skill or two that seriously challenges the soul, drives us nuts, makes us want to run screaming into the night. Don't give in!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Woody,
A few years ago my wife, myself and another couple took a ski trip through some beautiful but rugged country near where we live. This trip quickly turned into something none of use had expected. The country came with a much larger R in the rugged than we expected, and when you looked on the map, it sure looked different!!! When we were about 80 miles back in we came to challenges we hadn't expected, and at first, were indeciceve about what to do, but decided to keep on. We took each day as it came, and each challenge as it came, but I think the most important decision was, each morning we got up, and when deciding the plan for the day, the first thing we said was, "we are not going back". After making that decision, it really cleared the air, as it were,( the air was in fact incredibly clear, except when it was snowing!) because we then focused all our actions and plans to continuing, and only going ahead. Roping up to go down blind chutes that we had no idea what the bottom was like, fording streams 4' deep that you couldn't see the bottom, crossing glaciers, looking for ice bridges over roaring rivers, and on. It was a wonderful trip that I will never do again, but I think the most importaant thing was that decision, every day, that we wern't going back. It changes your focus, and refines your view of the world you are in.
Don't lose your resolve about wood work, and don't go back. Perseverance will carry you through. Like everyone says, give it a break, its amazing how your subconcious mind will work for you to give you a way or method that you had not thought of before.
Pedro
Well, the general opinion here seems to be to take a break. I agree.
What got you into woodworking to begin with? Did you see a piece of furniture somewhere and think "I could do that"? Did you start building because there was something you needed? Were you just bored and needed something to throw a lot of money at?
I think you need to find your inspiration again.
Go to a museum and look at some pieces the masters of the craft made. Look close and see where there is a gap in a joint. Or tool marks that show through. They didn't do anything you couldn't do with some practice. And they had a much tougher time getting wood. Feed the horse, load up the saw, hook up the cart...
Read a few books on WWing, but pick a topic different from what you normally do like turning, carving or marquetry. Just put down your project and let yourself relax a bit. Nothing good is going to come out of your shop if you are tense and frustrated. Give it a week, you'll be itching to go back in.
And if you do screw up a few boards, it's not like wood doesn't grow on trees.
Andy
On a break since 1968
Woodman, you have receieved some excellent suggestions, as well as some personal therapy. (I, frequently, just walk away from a frustratiing problem and find I generally can solve it in my sleep. It works!)
But, I would add an alternative suggestion. You live in Indiana so it should be easy to sign up for a Marc Adams class (just south of Indianapolis - marcadams.com). Not only will you learn skills but you will meet some great guys who are walking down the same path with you.
Frosty
Yep, been there many times. Thats where I saw David Marks make 8/4 dovetails over a cup of coffee. I am definately getting closer.
Jeff
Woodman
I am a Golf professional turned woodworker. I have been woodworking for 5 years or so and it is almost exactly like when I started playing golf. The better you get, the higher your expectations are.
When I started to play golf, I was very pleased when I hit the ball 150 yards and it landed between the trees. Now, if it's not 275 and dead straight, I want to break my driver over my knee (not really, but it better be in play).
Currently I'm learning chair making using loose tennons. Today I cut a mortise in the wrong place in a piece of 12/4 cherry. Sure I can patch it, but that's not the point. It was a dumb mistake and I was pissed off. Fortunately I learned from my golf frustrations and walked out of the workshop for the day. It's just not worth getting worked up about.
I hope you are able to figure out your problem. If not, don't be afraid to post a photo or two on sites like this and ask for help. I have learned that woodworkers are surprisingly unselfish with their woodworking knowledge.
Bob,
How funny.....me too. Played college golf, did 3 tours of duty in Myrtle Beach as an assistant professional.....found a sponsor and played on tour for 4 years in West Palm Beach, Florida....Sunshine Players Tour....Played a couple Nike events....I know about frustration. No matter how much golf you watch on TV, you NEVER know how good those guys are until you play with them.
That's all I ever did growing up. When you get to that level, its not golf anymore, its a thankless job. I still remember the day it ended. I was on the practice tee in West Palm and hit a 5 iron a little on the toe and I just lost it......I was all alone on the practice tee and still remember saying to myself, "I'm tired of fighting it, I'm done."
After calling my sponsor and telling them, I was back in Indiana two weeks later with a real job. That was 12 years ago, and to this day have not played since.
Jeff
Woodman, What a strange world. Where do you live now? I have family in Myrtle beach, but did most of my playing/teaching in Massachusetts and Tampa (in the winter, of course). Rhode Island is home now (where there are tons of GREAT courses). I can't say I've had exactly the same experience as you. I played a lot of section events, but wasn't quite good enough to really make a run at it. Most of my professional career was teaching. Now I play 5-8 times a year, and while it is fun at times, I just don't feel the need to spend 8 hrs a day at the golf course (nor do I have the money to!).I looked a the photos of your dovetails. It looks like you are really close. It usually takes me 2-3 times to really get the hang of a new woodworking skill. Unfortunately, humans by nature are impatient and we tend to try a new skill on a "real" piece.I'd love to see the finished piece. Please make sure you post photos. Bob
I tell myself the same thing all the time.. and then, just like golf, I have a nice successful outing.. and I keep at it.
My most recent frustration was at the lathe. I spent all day making a rosewood goblet. You know.. turning the mounting blank for the faceplate.. turning the goblet blank itself.. mounting it to the faceplate blank.. coring out the the end grain for the goblet... shaping the stem and beads and base.. sanding three grits.. finishing two coats of oil...
..only to ruin the whole piece at the end of a long afternoon with the parting tool.
It's frustrating and blood pressuring raising when things like this happen.. and I want to sell all my tools and turn my garage space over to something else.. like restoring a vintage automobile.
But then I go inside and look at other pieces I've made.. like my kids' cherry and walnut blanket chests.. and the bandsaw boxes I've made for them.. and see that I am capable of producing some nice stuff... sometimes.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled