Replies

1. 
   Paul_at_First_Finish | Dec 08, 1999 02:53am | #1

   *
   Check out "How to fume oak?" dated 15 September on this board.

1. 
   Kevin_R | Dec 09, 1999 12:38am | #2

   *There's a great article on fuming right on this website. It's called "Fuming with Ammonia" by Kevin Rodel (not me). Like you, I'm getting ready to attempt my first fuming project and I found this article extremely helpful.

1. 
   Kevin_A_Shaw | Dec 16, 1999 05:50am | #3

   *Hello, I just gave it a try with some white oak. Came out okay, it wasn't the color I was looking for so I stayed with the just Watco. As mentioned, refer to the FWW article, I used it as the basis for my work and it turned out fine. Before I starting, however, I would first realize that Aqueous Ammonia is a synonym for Ammonium Hydroxide--a very strong base. And I would do a search for the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet--you can find them at Yahoo by searching for MSDS or http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/a5472.htm). Read it and scare the hell out of yourself. It has a contact hazard of 3 (out of 4) and a reactivity hazard of 3. Nasty, nasty stuff. One deep breath of this stuff will corrode out the inside of your lungs. Keep that in mind as you're working with it. Be sure to use nitrile gloves (blue or green) and a full ammonia-rated respirator. Given that, its fairly easy to work with. I used a "large" plastic clothes storage container--i.e. the clear plastic boxeds people use to store sweaters in in their closets. Since I only ran a test, my box was 2 foot long and 1.5 feet wide and 6 inches deep with a plastic lid. I read the FWW article and decided that I liked the sample that he showed with the least fuming -- 30 minutes. So I bracketed my experiment around that. I took two samples of oak (one each from a different plank) and cut them up into four equal-sized pieces. Then I labeled them 0 hours, 0.5 hours, 1 hour and 2 hours. Then putting on the respirator, the gloves and the goggles I placed the box (with the wood in it already) in the garage with the door open and poured the ammonia in a 5 inch glass dish. I placed the dish in the box, closed the lid and started waiting. I had three of the samples in the box when I started, and pulled out one each at their respective times, with the zero hour one as a control. The FWW article was right on in saying that the wood comes out grey after fuming, but by adding finish it brings out a rich brown color to the wood. Now the caveat, there is a single sentence in the FWW article that warns you to make sure all your wood is from the same tree, if not you'll get different results for each plank. I got all my wood from a sawyer at the same time, but didn't know if it was from the same tree. Well, they obviously weren't. One plank came out with a beautiful deep mahogany brown color to it. The other came out darker with a greyish, almost greenish cast to it. Since all my wood was cut, tenoned, mortised and dadoed at this point I was stuck. I have a modern piece of stickley at home and compared it to that and I just didn't like the greenish cast. So I settled on the Watco--which came out spectacular I might add. :-) Of all the pieces, I liked the 30 minute samples the best. The 1 hour and 2 hour samples really didn't look all that different. I also tried a piece with one coat of watco on it already, and found that (atleast in the two hour time period) that there was very little color change took place. When I was done I took a plastic funnel and poured the ammonia back in the jar, sealed it and left the dish and box out in the open garage to air out for a day. After that there was no residual odor left to either the plastic box or the dish. Given all this I didn't find it to be all that difficult, I would just plan more in advance to make sure the wood color matched better between the planks before I started. Fuming is relatively easy to do, its just dangerous. And just like a table saw or or any dangerous tool, as long as you're respectful of it, you can do some amazing things. Kevin A. Shaw, PhD Ithaca, NY

1. 
   charles_mueller | Feb 29, 2000 03:57am | #4

   *Kevin,I, too, have found that the pieces I have test-fumed do not have the warm amber/orangey tone of the Stickley originals; some are in fact a little greenish, even after several coats of various oils. I've been getting frustrated with it (with an assembled tall clock case ready to finish), so I'm encouraged by your mention of your success with the Watco. Which color did you use, and what was your technique?Thanks!Charles Mueller, AIA, Chester, CT

1. 
   cliff | Feb 29, 2000 04:56am | #5

   *Charles, first let me say I've no experience with fuming. The nasty fumes and the necessity for protective gear and precautions in dealing with the industrial strength ammonia put me off. I just plain don't want to mess with it and wouldn't even if it were not so unpredictable. However, I've had good success with Watco products and aniline dies.I've restored several A & C pieces including some clock cases in such poor repair they were literally falling apart when acquired. I wanted the resulting finish to closely resemble the very dark, nearly black coloration that pieces which were originally fumed and shellaced take on with advanced age. I've used several premixed J. E. Moser's dies and two Watco penetrating oil products, Dark Walnut and English Oak.On one case, I used Medium Fumed Oak which produces a distinctly green ish brown cast. I didn't like the green so I applied Dark Walnut oil (first coat)to make it much more brown, then English Oil to darken it further. The later is basically a black glaze (which I mention as I haven't seen this particular Watco variety offered lately). Basically happy with the resulting color, I applied several coats of orange shellac. The result was pretty darn close to the color of an orignal aged piece in such bad shape as to require replacement.On another project I used Light Sheriton Mahogany. The result was too red, so I sanded much of it off and applied Flemish Brown Oak followed by the same oil and shellac treatment above. The result was a pleasing deep orange brown that worked very well with a orange brown oil tanned and distressed hide I acquired to reupholster a mission oak feinting couch.On a current project, I have need of matching some replacement legs to the remainder of antique mission rocker. The original pieces displayed a distinctly greenish cast after stripping (and I decided not to pursue Jeff Jewitt's recommendation to kill the green with an oxalic acid treatment), so the aforementioned Fumed Oak die, applied and then sanded, worked well to match the new parts to the remainder of the old ones. The sanding tends to catch the edges heavier and lighten them more thant he field so this actually helped in creating a distressed look on the replacement pieces. I also banged them about some to produce some scratches and minor edge damage, again helping to blend them in with the old pieces.I'm something of an old clock nut and have designed and built numerous cases in the A & C style. The most recent is hall clock inspired by a design for a combination cellarette/grandfather clock found in a reprint of the 1906 Shop of the Crafters at Cincinnati catalog. This is one of the most interesting sources I've stumbled across for A & C clocks as it includes 19 photos of tallcase clocks. I have most of these designs in electronic form and certainly would be interested in trading for some of my designs for yours!

2. 
   charles_mueller | Mar 02, 2000 02:24am | #6

   *cliff,i'm doing a meticulous reproduction of the venerable "#86" L. and J.G Stickley tall case clock, my first venture into the genre.would you mind elaborating on your finish process for the "pleasing deep orange brown" of your feinting couch? i'm continuing to have no success achieving a warm tone after fuming, even after reading the comprehensive article in this month's Woodworker's Journal, which addresses the relationship between temperature in the fuming environment and the resulting tone (warmer supposedly begets warmer). i get a sickly (not Stickley) green every time. i'm thinking it must be the wood; two or three coats of amber shellac have still not overcome the greenish cast. i don't really want to resort to heavy stains, for fear of unnaturally filling the pores with pigment. help! (thanks)

3. 
   cliff | Mar 03, 2000 04:08am | #7

   *As your inquiry was posted before Jeff responded to your other post, I'll assume his information may be what you needed. I'll simply add to it a bit. One of his suggestions was to establish a base coloration using dye. That's basically what I did by a round about means. I started with one color dye application, wasn't satisfied, and modified the wood color with application of yet another dye mix after sanding most of the first off. As my example illustrates, you can vary the intensity of coloration achieved by dying through judicious sanding; if you get it too dark, simply sand some off to lighten it. Obviously it would be simpler and less risky to your project to mix dyes and test the various mixes until the desired color is achieved in one application. One critical point: test the entire finish, including all components and/or treatments through to final condition on samples of the stock you're going to treat, before making your final choice. That makes for fairly predictable results, particularly from new stock. The mistake I made was to test on new stock. I wasn't pleased to learn I wasn't achieving the same coloration on the antique stock; hence the need for a mid coarse correction after backing up and testing on the old stock (inside the coach where it wouldn't show). The penetrating oil application is quite straight forward. Simply apply, allow to soak in for 15 or 20 minutes, wipe off all the excess, and let dry. With pigmented varieties such as the Watco Dark Oak, successive applications will darken the wood. I've never followed Watco's suggestion of wetsanding it in. That mixes dust with the oil and produces a slurry that dries ON the wood rather than in it. I like the English Oak (black glaze) precisely because it can be used to produce an extra element of contrast by highlighting the open pores of oak. If you put in on and then wipe the bulk off almost immediately, basically only that which is in the pores remains. If you want to darken the whole surface and not just the pores, let it soak in before wiping. As Jeff also indicated, you can always change the coloration by adding tones to subsequent finish elements such as using orange shellac over the dried oil, or adding dye or pigment to another top coat such as varnish. Just keep on chuggin' and don't loose faith as there is always another way to skin that cat; sooner or later you'll get where you want to go!

4. 
   Dale_Page | May 10, 2000 03:06am | #8

   *Jim, you might try the "Mission Oak" finish described in the link here:http://www.wwforum.com/faqs_articles/missionoak.htmlRegards from NM.Dale

5. 
   Robert_Manning | Jan 24, 2001 09:20pm | #9

   *I have used regular household ammonia in my ice chest to do some tests and came up with the greenish cast which could work for some things. I get a darkening effect in as little as fifteen minutes with some samples going overnight. The sapwood is less affected so fuming creates a contrast. There is no obscuring of the grain as in stain or dye either. I think the amber tone mentioned comes from an aged top coat. I used a four inch dish but one could use a large flat dish and a battery operated fan for more evaporation of fumes to get a darker color. My ice chest gets totally disinfected as well.