I’ve built a small QS white Oak coffee table and would like to experiment with fuming. I think that I understand the procedure, making a tent and leaving the heavy duty amonia in a bowl etc… But…
1. How long? Hours, days?
2.Where can I find the amonia to do the job (I think it’s 28% which is not available at the grocery store)
3.What are the potential risks and hazards associated with this proceedure?
Has any body got any stories of things you did and would avoid, or do differently? This table also has some pauduk highlights, and am wondedring what the effect might be if any.
Replies
My fuming experience is with small pieces of wood in an airtight container using household ammonia.
>> 1. How long? Hours, days?
All the pieces I did got very dark overnight. As I said, I was using an airtight container, but if your enclosure is moderately airtight and your ammonia dish exposes a large liquid surface, you'll be closer to hours than days.
>> 2.Where can I find the ammonia to do the job?
You absolutely do not need blueprint ammonia. Grocery store ammonia works just fine. The industrial stuff might be a little faster, but for one piece, it's not worth the hassle and expense, IMO. But if you feel you must, look at art and architecture supply stores.
>> 3.What are the potential risks and hazards associated with this procedure?
The only significant risk is inhaling a dangerous quantity of ammonia vapor. To minimize the risk, use household ammonia instead of industrial strength. Do it outside. Stand on the upwind side when you open the enclosure. Use a funnel to pour the ammonia from the pan back into the bottle rather than carrying the pan into the house to pour it down the sink.
If you can find a cardboard box that will fit over the table, that would be a lot easier than rigging a plastic tent. Tape the seams, invert the box over the table, and weight the flaps down with whatever.
There have been quite a number of discussions on this topic. An archive search for fuming or ammonia will probably find most of them.
blueprint ammonia..THAT STUFF WILL KILL YOU! Take my word for it... Back, way back, I repaired Bruning blue print machines.. Some liquid, some gas... That anhydrous amonia (gas) is REALLY nasty!Stick with the store bought stuff.. and be safe..EDIT:: Geeee.. I should be ables to spells Amonia!
Edited 8/5/2005 10:07 am ET by Will George
Uncle Dunc covered the basics. I only use industrial ammonia and a gallon will cost you between $8 and &10 from a blueprint supplier. If this is the only QSWO piece that you intend to fume then use then regular ammonia but if you think you will be doing a lot of fuming then commercial strength is worthy of consideration. If you take all of the precautions as Uncle Dunc described then you will be alright using either strength. Regardless of which one you use, I recommend test pieces fumed at different time periods to find the best time for that wood and what you have in mind. One thing to try and avoid is sap wood where it will show since it will not react to the fumes. If that happens then you can use dye and color match the sapwood to the surrounding heartwood. There is a point where time is no longer a factor. I usually leave my pieces in about 18 - 24 hours for maximum reaction.
Wear gloves. Use Eye Protection.
Wash your hands and forearms after handling all chemicals. Wash you face too if anything splashes.
JakeG
I addition to Dunc's advice (which is quite good), have you considered using a mordant of acetic acid and iron oxide (rusty metal in vinegar)? It reacts with the tanin endemic to oak, and significantly deepens to coloration provided by dying, fuming, and staining. Experiment on a test piece; I think you'll be pleased.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Okay everyone thanks for the tips... Here's the results...
I fumed a piece of qswo, cherry, and pauduk in a tupperware container for 48 hours for an extreme example (plus I was out of town) with household stregnth amonia.
The QSWO turned to a dark brownish green much like a piece of pressure treated pine. However the flecks seemed highlighted a bit and it was perfectly even.
The cherry darkend a bit and the pauduk lost all of it's red and looks like walnut or bubinga perhaps.
I think I'll stick with a light stain and watco treatment with this project. Thanks!
Thanks for the feedback. It's always nice to hear how things went.>> The QSWO turned to a dark brownish green ...Sounds like the same color I got. I liked it, but that doesn't seem to be the majority opinion.
That greenish color should go away when you apply finish, especially if you use oil. You will be amazed at the color change! Unfinished fumed oak does indeed look a lot like that dark green PT pine - very ugly. Put some oil on it and watch the magic."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I looked at your link.. I liked your work...Gothic style.. How much extra for Gargoyles on the bed posts? LOL...
Thanks, Will!Gargoyles are definitely possible - although I'd probably have to sub them out to a better sculptor than me. I got a quote for Griffons (kinda like gargoyles) on bed posts, for a super-carved bed; the griffons would have cost about $1,500 apiece. (The quote for the whole bed was $40,000!)"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
You can get 10% ammonia at the Ace hardware store. Look in the cleaning products aisle...
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Visit Dust Maker
Just a word or caution, be very, very careful. Fuming is a process that was discontinued in commercial applications years ago. It caused many respiratory and skin problems.
It's for good reason that the process was commercially discontinued.
There are today perfectly adequate and safe colong processes that can be used--and should be. There is no good reason to use fuming.
Like I think I said..
AMONIA can kill you!OR make you so sick ya wish ya was!
Edited 8/8/2005 2:31 pm ET by Will George
I agree with everything Howie says except this conclusion:
"There is no good reason to use fuming."We've been over this before, so I'll just restate my opinion: Nothing achieves exactly the same effects as fuming. You can approximate the color and the look by spraying dye, or so I'm told (haven't seen this done or seen the results), but the color will only be at the surface, whereas fuming colors deep into the wood. (Staining produces a very different appearance.)In addition, fuming is cheaper and easier than spraying dye, requiring no special equipment or skill.Having said that, fuming is definitely hazardous. It can be done safely but you should decide if the risk is worth it. There are lots of useful procedures that aren't commercially viable..."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
In addition, fuming is cheaper and easier than spraying dye, requiring no special equipment or skill
I noted that you followed the statement woth a caution on fuming is definitely hazardous. That is very true, but unless you have the ability to make a very airtight container you can make the room it is done in very unpleasent to be in for awhile. If done in a home shop, it were best done outside.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Agree completely. Never do this indoors. Even if you escape harm, your tools might not... ammonia fumes react with aluminum. Ammonia also reacts with houshold bleach to produce free chlorine gas, which is deadly; every year somebody dies from this (usually when cleaning toilets)."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
If you use the box method, you can cut a "window" in the side and tape a piece of clear plastic over it so you can monitor the process and take it out when it gets where you want it. Depending on regular or blueprint amonia, would determine when to start checking, but once the process gets going, check every couple of hours.
USE a good air filter and make sure you use heavy duty gloves - preferably neoprene, but you can get by on a one off using kitchen cleaning gloves. beware of the fumes getting into your eyes - try wearing goggles with a good seal on the side.
Somertime,
I learned through experimentation that it's quite possible to fume after the finish has been applied! Haven't conducted tests to determine the extent to which fuming may alter the finish, but QSWO with a sanded-in oil finish fumed without any apparent negative effect on the finish.
Have fun with your finishing experiments!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
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