I’m building a banket chest from QSWO (the one from FWW #172) for my mother’s 70th. She loves the old A & C look; I’m considering fuming it, even though the chest is more in the Shaker style. Am I crazy? Has anyone doe it, and does anybody have any tips or advice? The inside is aromatic cedar–will this be affected by the ammonia?
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don’t let anybody tell you different. –K Vonnegut
Edited 3/3/2005 7:41 pm ET by CharlieD
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Click on the Advanced Search button near the top of the index frame on your left. Select search for messages with any of the words. Enter
fume fumed fuming
in the text box. Lots of advice and experience on tap.
WRT the cedar, I wouldn't expect any lasting effect, since the ammonia is very volatile and will all evaporate, but I would try it on some scrap before I made any life changing decisions.
Fuming with ammonia can be quite nasty - you'll have to build an air tight chamber in which to place the wood to be fumed so it can bask in the pungent fumes of the ammonia - and figure out a way to avoid the fumes yourself: we're not talking about household ammonia here; the stuff used for fuming is far more powerful.
Whether you fume or choose another method, I'd recommend a few things:
1. Practice on test pieces before you commit to your furniture project;
2. Look into mordants like acetic acid and iron oxide (rusty metal in vinegar), which can darken and deepen the coloration of stains and dyes.
3. Find a good book that goes into detail on fuming. One that springs to mind is "Wood Finishing with George Frank."
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Well, that's interesting. What, generally speaking, are "mordants"?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie, Mordants (if memory serves) bind the colorant to the substrate
"Charlie, Mordants (if memory serves) bind the colorant to the substrate"Hmm...thanks.Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
I fume QSWO using industrial strength (26%) ammonia and using basic precautions, it is a simple process. The greatest potential for harm comes from spilling the material on you during set-up and when retrieving the pieces after they are finished. You need to vent the area before sticking your face in to look at the results. Air tight is nice but not absolutely necessary. 26% ammonia is not difficult to find if you have commercial blueprint companies in your area. Toss the left-over material in the garden/flower bed.
Before you do this I would experiment using different scraps from your project since each board will react in a slightly different way. The difference between sap wood and heart wood will be immediately noticeable. Add the cedar in to the test to make sure this will not be a problem. Set your scrap in 3 different groups at 12, 24 and 36 hours and compare the differences.
If you choose not to fume, check our Jeff Hewitt's Mission Oak finishing recommendations at Homestead Finishing's web site.
Doug
Thanks, Doug. Others believe that household ammonia will do; do you disagree?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
I guess I belong to the group that followed the custom of industrial strength ammonia. I have never tried household ammonia since I have a gallon the stronger solution. When that is gone I will try it. I would think however, that weaker solution will require a greater quantity of liquid to produce the same results. The amount required is also a factor of the size of your fuming chamber.
The point regarding the durability of fuming is, discarding the traditional aspects, the major advantage of fuming. I recently planed a discarded fume piece and the coloring penetrated as much as 3/4" on the end grain and about an 1/8 of inch on the plane surfaces.
Doug
Count me in the household ammonia group. I've never tried the industrial strength, so I don't have a comparison, but I was perfectly happy with the color I got, and neither the amount used nor the time seemed excessive to me.
Maybe the household ammonia requires more to achieve the results - but we're talking about maybe a cup or so to fume that chest. It probably would have taken, what, three tablespoons to do it with industrial-strength... Since the household ammonia costs about $4 a quart, and that's enough to fume a very large project and still wash your windows when it's finished, I'd say it was false economy to spend 5 times as much money on the industrial-strength stuff, which is also much more dangerous to work with. You must do one hell of a lot of fuming, if you expect to use up a gallon!! Your observations on the depth of the reaction are consistent with mine."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I have used both household ammonia and industrial ammonia and found that although both work household ammonia takes a lot longer. I also used an air tight room and a small heater with fAN to cirulate the fumes. Only took a few days to get good results with industrial ammonia. (26% )
[email protected]
Maybe part of the problem here is the vastly different sizes of fuming chambers people are using. I made a chamber that was just barely large enough to hold the objects being fumed; that way, it took less ammonia and less time to saturate the air with ammonia-gas. If you seal off an entire room, it will take a LOT more ammonia, and therefore a lot more time. In that case, the industrial strength will work much better, because it will transfer ammonia into the air at a greater rate. (Household strength might not work at all, because the ammonia might diffuse through the walls too rapidly.)Volume goes up as the cube of length - so if you had a small room, say 10' x 10' x 8', that's 800 cubic feet; my little fuming box was about 10 cubic feet. So you needed 80 times as much ammonia just to get the same gas concentration! That's probably why I got complete darkening in about 16 hours instead of several days."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Fuming is really quite easy to do, and DOES NOT require industrial-strength ammonia. That misconception seems quite persistent, but I can tell you from personal experiance that it is absolutely untrue. Regular houshold ammonia works just fine.
All I did was make a fuming chamber out of scrap lumber and Visqueen, with duct tape to seal the edges and "door." I fumed the parts before assembly, just because it was easier to handle that way; using soft steel wire to hang the parts from the frame of the chamber so the ammonia could get to all sides. Use a wide shallow dish, or several smaller dishes - plastic food containers work very well - to hold a shallow layer of ammonia. Do all this outside.
The houshold ammonia is much safer to work with, but it will still generate a very high concentration of ammonia gas in the chamber after a few hours. When you open it up, you risk getting that gas in your face - so either use a respirator, or (as I did) figure out a way to open the chamber and release the gas without getting it in your face. It will burn your eyes and nose, even if you hold your breath. This just can't be done indoors unless you have a ventilation hood to carry the gas outside.
The advice to make test pieces and fume them for varying lengths of time is spot-on. You will need to apply finish to those pieces before you can see the results - fumed wood looks awful raw, but changes color dramatically when finished. You can get anywhere from a light golden to a very dark brown color. The "Rohirric" chest on my Website was fumed for about 14 hours.
The ammonia gas (technically not a fume, btw) will quickly leave the wood and there is no residual odor or effect.
While this is a lot more trouble than staining or dyeing, it has certain advantages. Chief among them, IMHO, is that the color goes deep into the wood, so dings and scratches don't show up so dramatically. You can sand fumed wood without ill effect.
One disadvantage, as already pointed out by someone else, is that the sapwood will not change color at all, unless you first treat it with tannic acid. Also, different boards will color at different rates. This can work to your advantage if you want a strong color contrast, or it can be a drawback if you want an even color.
Bottom line is that it is really pretty easy to do and you can get unique results; and you can do it with ordinary household ammonia.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Thanks, Albion. Seems simple enough to just try it on a scrap in a big tupperware. I'll give it a shot.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie, that is exactly what I did - fumed scrap pieces in a large Tupperware container, for various lengths of time. You only need about a tablespoon of ammonia in a cake-size container."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Odd. I did some tests using household ammonia and got little effect. So I found some blueprinting ammonia which worked much better.
A wide flat dish will work better than a deep one. The more surface area, the more fumes that will affect the wood.
If I really want to keep on top of the process, I'll put in some scrap wood along with the piece. That way I can put some finish on the scrap to see what it'll look like. Amber shellac looks great on fumed oak.
GIametti, that is odd. What were the conditions, and how long did you leave the piece to fume? Did the same piece react with the blueprint ammonia, or was it a different piece? Temperature seems to have an effect on the rate of the process - warmer temps give faster results. Not sure if humidity plays a role as well; inside the fuming chamber the humidity gets pretty high. Industrial ammonia might have that one advantage - less water, less moisture inside the chamber. Agree with everything else you say."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Fuming is a variable process that depends on time, the size of your project, the strength of your solution (household vs. industrial), and how much gas you can get into your airtight container.
Whichever way you go, you would be well-advised to find some way to experiment to determine how long the process will take to get the color you are looking for. With a blanket chest, household ammonia may take a very long time (days and days), and you will probably end up with a limp color that you're not happy with.
If you chose to try the industrial stuff, you need to remember how incredibly dangerous this stuff is -- it can do serious and permanent damage to your lungs. Even the company that is now making Stickley furniture has abandoned the fuming process in favor of aniline dyes. So if you try it, get yourself a proper respirator, and set your tent up outside.
I think Jeff Jewitt has done the best work in coming up with aniline dyes to replace fuming. Someone else above gave you the link to his Homestead finishing site. He is extraordinarily approachable, and I would give him a call, and I'm sure he would get you set up with the products you need for the effect you want.
All of that said, there may be acceptable alternatives to a fumed finish, but there is still nothing quite like it. It is immediately recognizable to the practiced eye.
Thanks, lot of good info. Sounds risky, but...the lunatic in me (that once skied 3 days into the Rocky Mountain Nat'l Park in during the coldest week of the last 75 years to try to climb a 300 ft frozen waterfall) seems hellbent on this. I will take your safety advice.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie:
Go for it!
I also use stains, dyes and other chemicals to achieve a finish. Sometimes I achieve what the mind's eye saw and sometimes I don't.
Sometimes we do something the "old-fashioned" way because we see some intrinsic value in tradition. Else, why would we spend $300 for a jackplane.
There seems to a lot defensiveness around this subject and I'm not sure why. Like anything else, it is about taking the precautions appropriate to the task. I use a respirator when working around 26% ammonia. I also use a respirator when spraying finish coats. I use a dust masking when sanding. I sharpen my cutting tools because sharp tools are safer. I use a splitter when ripping boards. I have a blade guard on my TS (and I use it). I turn on my DC when making any kind of dust. If I applied the same advise regarding working with industrial ammonia to the rest of woodworking, I would put a lock on the shop door and never venture out from the relative safety of my house.
But "...skied 3 days into the Rocky Mountain Nat'l Park in during the coldest week of the last 75 years to try to climb a 300 ft frozen waterfall..." - now that is plain nuts!
Doug
But "...skied 3 days into the Rocky Mountain Nat'l Park in during the coldest week of the last 75 years to try to climb a 300 ft frozen waterfall..." - now that is plain nuts!Yeah, it was. But I can always say I did it! : { You'd think that dangling from a rope 150 feet up in stone darkness with a headlamp that failed due to the cold (60 below) would have been the low point. But skiing out, I fell sideways and upside down into a creekbed full of powder snow. Upside down, with 70 lbs on my back, skis preventing me from righting myself, unable to breathe, totally disoriented and in an absolute panic. I really thought that I was going to die. I was scared to go outside for 2 weeks after that trip. Cowabunga!Thanks for the encouragement. I've already found a source if industrial ammonia. $9.95 a gallon a good price? Seems absurd to buy a whole gallon...CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
The price is in line.
A good friend of mine died under much the same circumstances you described. He was skiing off trail in fresh powder and when into a tree-well upside down and couldn't free himself. Knowing Ed, he died really pissed-off. Glad you made it.
Took 80 pieces for 2 prairie-style lamps out of the fumer last night: they "cooked" for 24 hours. They look good except for 4 slats that I didn't notice the sapwood but I can work around it. Good luck with your project.
By-the-bye, pour the used ammonia into the flower beds.
Doug
I posted this elsewhere, but there is a good article on fuming in FWW 126, October 1997, p.46.The author, Kevin Rodel recommends industrial grade chemicals. I suspect that houshold grade will be fine, just take a bit longer. To speed the process, draw a vaccuum on your fuming chamber for a moment (use a shop vac, not your lungs :-) - this will speed the evaporation of the ammonia. (You could also heat the ammonia but I, for some reason, have a bad feeling about this approach)
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I'm a little concerned about having almost a gallon of this stuff leftover. Is it safe to have sitting around? I got kids, obviously it'll have to be stashed...And, how does one work around sapwood problems; that's one of my main hesitations.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
One way to dispose is to mix it with an acid - neutralize it in other words. You'll have to ask the chemists what the best acid is (least dangerous, nontoxic fumes, fires from the reaction).Come to think of it, just bring it to your town's hazardous waste day collection :-)M.
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I store mine in the plastic container that it came in. No noticeable leakage and it seems to hold its potency over time. I posted the same question regarding the sapwood in another thread in http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=22348.10. Take a look and watch for the response. I've never blended for the sapwood before since most of my fumed pieces are small and I've avoided the problem until this project.
Doug
Edited 3/8/2005 10:52 am ET by Doug
The biggest safety issue with ammonia- of any strength - is to avoid any possibility of mixing it with bleach (sodium hypochlorite). The ensuing reaction liberates free chlorine gas. This kills a few people every year, mostly domestic help trying to clean toilets.If you dilute the ammonia far enough, it is safe to put into sewers or even septic tanks; the average ammonia concentration in sewage is about 50 ppm. But that would take about 5,000 gallons of water for a gallon of 26% ammonia..."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Hi Charlie,
I've never fumed..and about all I do is A&C furniture..see my website.. http://www.kesslercraftsman.com
I think that anyone that fumes is smoking crack..smile. You work with nasty, hazardous chemicals, have to build special chambers, stink up your shop and then, for what?
A good combo of dyes, stains and grain fillers gets you a beautiful piece without the danger, expense, time and hassle.
That said, if you want to do it the traditional way, go for it...but it's not for me.
Good luck!
lp
Nice stuff, Larry; won't the dye fade over (very long) time?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
If you left the piece exposed to the sun, perhaps. I don't konw that fuming would fare any better.
BTW, I've always liked your Vonnegut tag line. So true.
lp
One thing to consider when you're fuming is that wood from different trees will darken at different rates. Ideally you should use wood from the same tree (even the same part of the same tree), which of course may not be possible. You may be able to overcome this by changing duration (pulling the darker pieces out first), though I only have limited experience with fuming, so that's just a guess. You could dye some of the lighter pieces afterward, if a perfect match is important. No clue how the cedar will react - ammonia reacts with the tannin in the wood to darken it. If the cedar doesn't have much, I wouldn't expect to see a whole lot of difference, but I could be wrong. The thing to do is test it first. If your fuming tent isn't real tight, you might also need to put fresh ammonia in sometime during the fuming.
Someone mentioned Jeff Jewitt. He has a good article on getting a mission finish without fuming here: http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/mission_oak.htm. If you're wanting to highlight the rays, fuming colors the rays, too, so dyeing would be preferred in that case.
FYI - I Just picked up the April issue of Woodworker's Journal in which there's a brief article on fuming with ammonia written by Michael Dresdner.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Thanks. I ought to have that lying around somewhere, although I quit taking that publication at somepoint; I didn't think I could stand one more *Special Must-Have Router Issue!*CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
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