All,
How will the green movement affect the future of wood and woodworking?
In 20 years will we be making tenons out of Play Doh and resins?
Thing are heading this way. I’m curious.
-bs
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Replies
Wood is extremely "green". It is renewable, with some species having only a very short cycle between harvests. While it likely requires tropical climes to have really fast cycle times (like Lyptus), other wood offsets its slower growth by being very local.
Yes, growing forests are good for the atmosphere, but left alone mature forests become much more neutral, as wood decays on the forest floor, releasing the CO2 captured by the growing trees. So using wood in ways, such as building furniture and buildings slows that return to CO2.
I think there is no danger of wood not continuing to be the vehicle of choice for a very long time for a great deal of our furniture and living spaces.
There is a lot of marketing hype surrounding "green" these days. It's about as difficult to find the "greenest" products as it is to run an economy without a monetary price system.
BS,
You have the best name in Knots. Congrats.
The future of wood is in the use of technology. We won't need as much wood in the future. In the 1800s wood veneer was about a quarter of an inch thick. Today, maybe 1/32". In twenty years, we will be able to make wood veneers less than a thousandth of an inch thick, thus proving the look of real wood to thousands more wood-lovers.
Also, I believe we will be seeing "spray-on" wood finishes which actually contain wood along with the varnish, thus saving a step. Furniture can be made of any appropriate recyclable material and then have a spray on wood finish. WHile it won't have the "grain" of wood, it will have the "feel" of wood.
I am not really worried about the availability of wood, but rather about the cost of tools. Philip Marcou's planes are about $2000, and Holtey's are over $10,000 apiece. My guess is that in 20 years, these planes will be selling for about $200,000 apiece, well out of the range of anyone who is actually willing to do work.
There will be many jobs for woodlovers in the future. They can be the staff of wood museums. Also, they can be history teachers. Now many woodworkers are turning to teaching woodwork rather than doing woodwork because it pays better. In the future, they will turn to being curators in wood museums.
People are worried about running out of water.
People I know are worried about running out of money.
Me, I am worried about running out of words. My wife says I shouldn't worry.
Have fun, BS. Your name is my hobby.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Me, I am worried about running out of words. My wife says I shouldn't worry. LOL!
WG,
I still don't have as many words as you do. :-)
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I still don't have as many words as you do. :-)
Hardly.. I just bring up memories... Lots of old memories here. And I still remember that old bully I had to put up with in grade school! I got bigger and beat him up. We were good friends after...
We all have many memories! Bring up the good AND bad ones.. Makes life what it is...
Can I say? I waited/saw my wife die from cancer.. She looked s beautiful to me as the first day I met her! Ok, so a bit upset about everything.. I think God has a special place for her..
Some do not believe in God.. I love the Cosmos by Carl Sagan and I do love that guy from Japan. He is way cool!
Japan guy.. So sorry I forgot his name.. Just me at the moment...
I for one would love to guess/know about what is out there!..
Not that stupid as I got older but very stupid as child.. BUT I had fun!
Japanese guy with a great mind and a soft voice.. Quantum Mechanics?
If you're thinking of Michio Kaku, I love that guy too!
I'd agree - Dr. Michio Kaku is the new Sagan. Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astronomer, is interesting, too. At least until he demoted Pluto. ;-)
One word...Venus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7_YNTQmtGg
Thanks. Yes..
I love to hear Dr. Kaku talk. To me very much like Dr. Sagan with a much different style.
And never forget Dr. Neil Tyson. I love his talks.. A bit of a smart A** and I just like his style. I wonder why he hated Pluto as a planet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiOwqDmacJo&feature=related
"Me, I am worried about running out of words. My wife says I shouldn't worry. "LOL x 2. You should also be comforted by the fact that words can be re-used, recycled, and re-hashed. ;-)
All ,
Not so sure I understand , sounds like many accomplished wood workers are now teaching the craft because they can earn more teaching than making , and we are worried about the future of our craft ?
Who are all these woodworkers going to teach ? Will the students go on to never have a career in wood working since the trend is to teach and not build for some ?
Sounds to me like more folks then ever are currently being enrolled in ww schools , especially since so many more makers are now apparently teaching.
As far as wood in the future , tree engineers are working as we speak to develop new strains of renewable trees. Save those scraps !
regards dusty
It should be noted that there will be NO wood after the next major asteroid strike, only charcoal. But, there won't be any humans to fret over it, either. ;-)
Ralph,
"It should be noted that there will be NO wood after the next major asteroid strike, only charcoal. But, there won't be any humans to fret over it, either. ;-)"Well, the astronauts who escape the asteroid hit on Earth will be able to go forth to other planets and make new lives there. Unfortunately, I have studied photos of the other planets for which photos are available, and forests are scarce. So either way, woodworking will not be a needed skill after the next big asteroid strike.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
True. Forests tend to grow only in the so-called "Goldilocks Zone". Methane ice sculpting might be a more useful skill on some planets. No smokers allowed, though. ;-)
Ralph,
I just read a newspaper story that said that folks in the US are not as scientifically knowldegeable as they should be. I guess they didn't interview you. How close are you to Albuquerque? MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm probably not as scientifically knowledgeable as I should be, either. So, that interview might have been moot, after all. ;-)Rio Rancho, NM, where I live, is partly contiguous with ABQ, but on the west side of the Rio Grande. I'm about 500 feet higher in elevation than most parts of ABQ, as well.
Ralph,
My second son went to UNM so my wife and I went to Albuquerque quite a few times. She wants to go back for a visit. We both like the area. If it happens in the next year, I'll let you know. Maybe we can have dinner at that little cafe in Old Town that is so good.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,,
Future of Wood??? If there is one..
And a picture of th moon as I took with my Sony Camera?
Will,I know that there are some serious transatlantic differences in customs, language, food habits etc but I never knew that you had a differently shaped moon!Over here the moon is crescent shaped or round. How come yours is heart shaped?David
Maybe because I LOVE looking at cestrial objects? I'd say distortion from the crap that in in the air from my very close airport.. The BIG one in Chicago.
I posted it because it was what my camera saw and I saw a round moon?
Certainly, give me a shout if/when you are in the area.
But, there won't be any humans to fret over it..
And then there was Man and Woman cooking BBQ on Charcoal they found.. As long as their is Air to breath some folks will survive.. AND hubbie found a old clay jug (maybe aluminum?) of warm beer!
Yes, those living in missile silos with a good store of vittles might well survive. The experts estimate that air topside will likely be in the 800° range for a bit, though, so a little rough to breath. Then, there's that nuclear winter thing afterward to contend with. ;-)
...but seriously. To answer the OP's question, I think wood will always be plentiful--only more expensive. The FSC has made sure of that. The same amount of trees will be cut, only it will cost you more because of their 'chain of custody' requirements that are on the horizon. Every company in the 'chain of custody' will have to pay dearly for the right to sell the wood. The consumer will take it in the shorts.
That's great motivation to start amassing a horde of wood now if you have room.
I don't worry that we will run out of wood. I do worry that we will run out of quality wood. Those that will suffer the most from this are those of us that really value the aesthetics of really nice wood. Musicians who value the look and sound of natural wood in instruments will also suffer. We should be a louder voice for ensuring sustainable management of high quality woods that can not be grown in 40 years in a plantation but need the right amount of time, light, moisture, etc. to make a beautiful tree that can become a beautiful board and then a beautiful guitar or chair or table. As this type of wood becomes increasingly scarce, the price will go up.
And, as it become more expensive, there will be more incentive to make it available. Thus, there still won't be a shortage for those uses that truely value such woods--it's how markets work.
> And, as it become more expensive, there will be more incentive to make it available. Thus, there still won't be a shortage for those uses that truely value such woods--it's how markets work. Markets don't make more 100+ year old trees available, they just drive faster harvest of the ones that are left. That said, I don't think there's any risk of a future without real wood.I saw a big stick of real cuban mahogany and a hunk of rosewood auctioned out of an old timer's shop a few years ago, solidly into 4 figures for each.
Sir..
No expert on the subject and I saw a program.. yes on TV!... About hardwood forests in the midwest to southern USA... Sure wish I could find the reference. I cannot, so I'll state as I remember.
Now many harvested trees come from forests that were clear cut and re-planted. The forest grew better than it ever did in the past. I am NOT saying the wood is a better grade. Just much more of it... OF just one type...Straighter probably, stronger.. I have no idea. At least for midwest hardwood forests I 'think' were many other tree types in that forest that are no longer there.
The animals that depended on the OTHER TYPES of trees are no longer there.
How about a few hectares of ALL the native woods for the animals that lived there for a very long time in the past?
I love ALL trees and animals. And some Humans!
And to add.. How big is a Hectare?
http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/16/how-big-hectare/
I think a reasonable size for critters.. Maybe one on each side!
Edited 8/26/2009 5:33 am by WillGeorge
"I do worry that we will run out of quality wood."Use quartersawn. I read recently that it is the best thing for torsion boxes...:)
Andy
Don't be so pessimistic, or read too much cyberdribble.
Further to what Steve says, as far as I know American Red oak and American White oak has been cultivated in sustainable forests in the USA and Canada for over 100 years. Not to mention various pines and other builders species. So if push comes to shove you can always fall back on those.
Not to mention recycled stuff from old buildings to rail sleepers.
Then there is all the stuff you are not supposed to have from places like Sumatra, Mozambique, Burma and the rest : money talks especially when the majority is starving whilst government fatcats move around in Mercs and fancy SUV's, or when folk must feed cattle on maize grown in parts of the world being deforested in order to grow feed stock or graze cattle.
So it's not all gloom and doom: I'd say there is probably a greater tonnage of African Blackwood sitting in warehouses in the USA than there is on the ground in Africa (well almost).
And I almost forgot: there is "modified" wood, specifically pine, which is better than a lot of hardwoods.☺☺
And then there are Carbon Credits, for growing forests.....
Philip..
I am guilty... I just love Jatoba and Lacewood... Sapele Etc.
Will, don't be guilty: more good timber gets burnt for clearing,charcoal , cooking etc than is used by "us" .Philip Marcou
Thanks I thought the same..
Conserve wood by recycling. Barnwood, found wood, old flooring, etc. Here in Louisiana there is no more old growth cypress. They were mostly all cut in the 19th and the early 20th century. The only old growth cypress trees left or not good for lumber very few if any are good, straight and solid. There are sinkers but sinker lumber is very expensive. The new growth cypress is not nearly as good as the old stuff. I think there will always be wood but the quality won't be the same for some types.
ZABO2
Edited 8/31/2009 5:48 pm ET by Zabo2
but seriously,
When I announced my intention to pursue woodworking, my dad cautioned that there would not be any wood around " in the future". I realized that he might be right, so my woodworking career has always included getting trees planted, whenever and wherever I could. If you are thinking along these lines, it is amazing how often opportunities arise. That was 35 years ago.
Getting people, developers, communities to plant desirable trees is often a simple matter of bringing the idea that what they plant might be valuable to both future users and to the bottom line on their projects. Getting farmers / ranchers to plant out their fencelines or their marginal areas with trees can be just simple logic and provide handsomely for the long term viability of their lands. Of course, using your own place to grow trees that you use ( even it it's just a few) can be very inspiring for others.
In short, caring for the resource that we all depend on is something that just makes sense. In my time in Hawaii, I've seen us go from virtually no forestry management to having 500,000 acres under management for timber, watershed, and wildlife. A LOT of this transition came about because of the gentle pressure from end users like individual woodworkers.
We are often able to influence decision makers about species and source. Timber production can be supporting well though out management or it can be funding civil wars in Africa. The more people that are aware of this, the better the political climate for responsible use of what should be an infinitely renewable resource.
Very well said, thank you.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The threat from the greens is greatly exaggerated. The Northeast, where I live, is more forested than it has been since the seventeenth century. As a former environmental reporter, I remember covering a big scare in the 1980s that the vast northern Maine forest was getting sold off to real estate developers. It quickly went back to traditional forestry ownership because the market for second homes just isn't that strong, so the development was minimal. Few people in Boston are going to buy a weekend place in northern New England. It's just too far.What has changed through the years is how commercial forests are managed. The management has become much more responsive to short-term economic trends, such as interest rates. It's all about whether a tree is worth more standing or as a log. I'm curious to see what impact the decline of print is going to have on forests. As the number of print newspapers, magazines, and books declines in response to digital trends—most of us will be reading books on Kindle-like devices one day—some of the vasts forests now being managed for paper are likely to be managed for different uses. Although paper pulp is made largely from softwoods, if commercial forests are managed less for paper pulp, they may become more diverse, allowing more hardwoods to take over. (Hardwoods are now actively suppressed on paper-company land, at least in the Northeast.) Short growing cycles may become less desirable. In any case, I'm betting wood will remain plentiful and available and that prices will fluctuate more as a result of macroeconomic trends than green ones. Norman
Edited 9/2/2009 10:37 am ET by nboucher
I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. To feed a growing population, aren't we going to need MORE open farm fields and herding grasslands?
Do we really need to plant a tree where there is not one? What about the wildlife inhabiting the 500,000 acres in Hawaii BEFORE forestry management took over? It seems like their environment was changed drastically. No doubt they moved on seeking 'greener pastures'
It's true that the Europeans virtually used up their forests in the 1600's--one of the reasons for colonization in the New World--from which they are still recovering today. But I don't see that happening in North America because of the smart forest management already in place by the Weyerhausers and others.
The forest industry is doing a better and more environmentally responsible job of managing their forests and should be commended for that. This is in part because of pressure from the market-place. This does not mean, however, that the major timber producers are making product that is useful for furniture and fine woodworking, unless your designs call for curved 2x4s with lots of juvenile wood.
As a group of consumers, we woodworkers should make our voices heard by calling for sustainably produced wood and we should be willing to pay for an improved management model that produces product for us.
Voting with my wallet,
Randy
It's an issue of the economics. When 2x4 production provides the best returns, that's what gets produced. Let the price of hardwoods increase, and more hardwoods will get produced. This is already happening albiet in relatively small scale. For example, Swietenia Mahogani, is being produced on plantations. Is it the same as in the 18th. c., perhaps not quite, but.... Teak is also being plantation grown. Lyptus is a specially designed hybrid now grown on plantations, with a particularly short harvest cycle. Weyerhauser is the US distributor. When wood has value, it can be produced. And, you can pretty much use the price as a better gauge of scarcity than the reports of organizations with points to make (taking account that governemnts can sometimes impact the apparent scarcity to account for social goals.)
to feed a growing population, you need to strike a balance... something you are not going to see in corporate strategy. Marginal lands, watersheds, soil banking, erosion, and simple long term land banking are all required for responsible agriculture and forestry provides that buffer. Wood that we work with is a benefit of a well managed system, not the sole reason that we need healthy forests .
Re wildlife: without an intact canopy, precipitation falls off, habitat is gone, diversity is impossible. A grass mat might form inviting ungulates that serve as mini land compactors which makes it difficult to re-establish anything at all and increases run off. With the water gone, streams dry up, entire watersheds collapse. This cycle goes on everywhere. One of the reasons that the numbers on hardwood production look good today is not because of careful planning, but due to the dirt farming techniques of the south that left the land so depleted that it had to be abandoned. 100 years later we see trees covering these lands, but the topsoil is long gone.
Corporate tree farms are growing chips, paper, and some very standard species for industrial millwork. They wood that I am interested in needs to be planted by us.
You've missed those little "tree farm" signs along the country roads running through those "abandoned" lands. Cotton used to be the crop, poles and pulp are now the crop. Cotton was labor intensive, trees not so much. But not corporate farms, just the 160 or 320 acre family farms--some larger plantations of course.
doorboy,
Devil's advocate is always a fun role. I just love it. You did a good job at it. But I flew to California from Virginia a few months ago (on an airplane). I had a window seat, and often could see the ground. I gotta tell you that I am no longer worried about the population explosion. There is a lot of open space down there, and LOTS of green stuff, which I took to be trees. The cities seem quite sparse along the way. I am not going to loose much sleep over the possibility of running out of wood anytime soon. Of course, it may be that in a few years, people will get so excited about the possibility of getting a nice piece of poplar, that they bid the price way up. :-)There are a lot of things to worry about. THis one is low on my list right now.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Their have been regional wood shortages for some time, some of which have been known to change, or even eliminate societies. Lief Eriksson traveled to Vinland (Nova Scotia) looking for timber, which 13th century Iceland was in very short supply of.Easter island was completely denuded of trees, which resulted in the near destruction of the Polynesian culture on the island. Without trees, boats could no longer be constructed, so deep sea fishing and travel became impossible.The steam engine was invented in England due to a wood shortage. There wasn't enough wood remaining in Britain for charcoal to support the iron industry. So, the English turned to coal for their iron production. Deeper coal mines were prone to flooding, and eventually, Thomas Newcomen developed the first workable steam engine to pump water out of the mines.As long as there are trees, wood will still be available. Higher quality composites such as Trex are insanely expensive compared to wood, and will probably remain so. Meanwhile, lower quality composites such as particle board are only suitable for kindling. Most plastics are petroleum based, which is probably going to be in short supply far sooner than wood is going to be.
Mr. Oak,
It was a nice surprise to get a response on this old thread. You made some very important points.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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