I’m using (in a router table) a 1/8″ roundover bit (with a bearing = beading — a little bit of an upright edge at the top of the roundover) on 1×4″ hemlock. The edge-grain looks fine, but the end-grain has little fuzzies coming off the upright-edge part. Is this “to-be-expected” or is there something amiss, either with my technique or the bit?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Try passing it through one last time, If the fuzzies are still there then I would say that you got a dull bit.
I did that, but didn't help a great deal. Hmmmmm, they say "satisfaction guaranteed" so maybe I'll take it back. It's a Viper from Home Depot, which I've always been reluctant to try, but that's where I was when I got the bug to make this little display stand.
While we're here, another question: this is the first edge-forming routing I've done in a table. The pieces I'm going to be doing are the same 1x4" hemlock, but they'll be 24" long. With the sample, which was only 8" long or so, I didn't use a fulcrum or a fence. I just advanced the piece carefully toward the bit/bearing (end-grain first), and then followed all the way around the 4 sides (there was a guard over the bit, though). Given the small size of the bit, and the size of the material, do you think this is pretty OK, or am I seriously seeking trouble? forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
End milling to a degree always presents some level of problems.
Imagine a whole bunch of soda straws. Say you want to trim one inch off one end of this grouping with a knife. The first thing you will notice is that the straws will first deform away from the knife. If the blade is sharp enough, it will cut, but because of the deformation, you will not get an even cut. Even with a sharp blade you will also develop some separation between the straws and were they glued together, this separation would appear as tiny cracks. (This is a type 1 end milling scenario).
If the blade is really dull, it is entirely possible that the straws will not cut at all but will instead tear off below the preferred cutting plane. (This is a type 2 end milling failure). I sincerely doubt that this is what is going on. The only way I know to check it is with a 25X magnifying lens (I got a neat one at an independent kid's toy store for about $10).
My guess is that you have a type 1 chip formation but the cutter is sufficiently dull so that you are not slicing all the fibers cleanly. You are probably literally bending some of these uncut fiber over and to a degree mashing them into the wood surface. After machining, the fibers will straighten and the surface will appear fuzzy.
You can develop a somewhat similar problem with planers, the defect is called "chip marks". If the exhaust system is inadequate, chips will remain on the surface of the board and they will be pressed into the surface by either the feed rolls or be hammered in with dull knives. You can get a hunk of something covering the blade and get a similar problem. This defect is different from tear out; if you moisten the surface of a chip marked board, the dents will swell often above the plane of the board. When planer blades are really dull or you are machining very low density woods (eg Western Redcedar) you can also develop a condition called raised grain. It appears mostly on flat sawn boards and the hammering of dull knives will compress the early wood. To a certain degree, you likely have both of these phenomenon occuring.
My guess is the router bit is not sharp. Either take it to somebody who can sharpen it or get an entirely different brand. Over the years, in moments of extreme desparation, I too have purchased router bits from the Big Orange box. I never have been satisfied with surface quality and several of them have broken shortly after I started using them. I have come to the conclusion that I will never again need to be so desparate.
I hope this makes sense!
Thanks Niemiec! I'll print out your info on planers too, for that eventual day that I finally get a planer :-)
'Tween you and Steve, I think I have enough info to take it back -- just bought it yesterday. I guess I'll stop by DSC and pick up a CMT bit, or if I can find one, a Freud.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
f_g, get rid of that bit or sharpen it if you can find enough carbide on it to sharpen. I'm not sure where US Saw is getting those things but they are the pits. I've got carb techs that are better and sharper. Get yourself a Whiteside, Amana or Freud, (thats my order of preference).
I got stuck once and bought one of their Oldham Viper cove bits, it ripped the end grain on con com redwood so I ended up free handing it and cranking the router all the way up to 22,000 rpm. Still I had to constantly touch up the bit. If you ever want a thrill try running a 3 1/4hp PC 7518 free hand at 22,000 rpm with a 1/4 bit. Its a lot like learning how to use a Roto Zip and makes you seriously think about buying a bullet proof vest.Steve - in Northern California
Hi Steve, sounds like I've learned a lesson, eh? I'll take it back. Our local store carries CMT bits, and they're supposed to be pretty dern good, no? Not sure if I can find a Freud bit closer than 30 miles away, and I'd like to get these shaped and do the Forstner work on them today so I can paint them tomorrow.
If you have a minute, would you be so kind as to check out my second post in this thread and give me some feedback on the way I'm handling the wood in this little project? Thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think you're fine doing the way you are. I've done a ton of them this way. The only time it gets scary is with the bigger bits when you are removing a lot of material. Hem Fir is long grained and the bit can bite if its dull but a fence or a guide pin is not going to prevent that. Just concentrate on where your fingers are in relation to the bit and take it easy. Router tables are more dangerous than one might think. You are moving the piece into the bit rather than moving the bit into the piece. You are also holding the piece in your hands when you would normally have it clamped down.
And as for the CMT bits they are O.K. if it will save you a 30 mile trip. Is it that far for you to get into Seattle. My memory is a bit stale but I thought there was a Tool Supply somewhere around Univeristy St. Steve - in Northern California
Thanks for the reassurance, Steve. It felt OK, but I just wanted to check.
I'm on an island 9 miles from Seattle, and do 99.9% of my shopping on the Kitsap Peninsula, not in Seattle, because the traffic is not fun in and around Seattle, and it costs a fortune these days to take a car over there (I walk to ballgames at Safeco though! yes!) We actually have a bridge that goes to Kitsap. Whew!
There is a machinery place about 15 miles away (carries CMT, and maybe Amana). I was thinking the closest place to get Freuds would be East Bremerton (actually more like 40-45 miles) as HD (30 miles) only carries the Vipers. Good news though: I just called the local Lumbermen's (main clientele is contractors) here on the Island and they carry.......yes!.......Freud. Cool.
I've always thought I'd go for CMT for the more heavily used bits, based on reviews and comments people have made. Sounds like you're not particularly impressed? BTW, do you have one of those rabbeting sets, with all the bearings etc.? If so, what brand? This has been on my list for awhile now, and I'd like to get one soon.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Looks like you got lucky.. I think the CMT is ranked somewhere between the Amana and the Freud. But, I haven't had a lot of luck with them myself. I've got a set of Freud raised panel bits that came with a set of special toung and grove bits. They were around 250.00 and work great. The t/g bits make the frame joints look like m/t with a compound mitred inside corner. You need a big router to swing the raised pannel bit but it has always produced high quailty results. I also have a few other Freud's that I am replacing with Whitesides. And Yes, I have a set of CarbTechs, they work great when I'm hacking something out or if I'm working outdoors on an outside project. There's not much sense in using cabinet grade router bits to round over the edges of a fence.
BTW - Mariner's put on a great show last night ! A's lost to them damn "money buys everything" Yankees. The Giants had the night off. Sure wish they would start letting Bonds hit again. Steve - in Northern California
Steve, I totally agree with you on the Bonds thing! Would love to see him get his chances this year!
Last night was something reallllly special, for Mike Cameron especially. He is extremely well-liked by his team-mates and coaches, and had the unenviable task several years ago of replacing Griffey in centerfield. He had a smile a mile wide when, after the game was over, was getting high-fives and hugs from all the coaches and team-mates. Even made big, BIG news on ESPN. So glad he and Boone (or, Boonie, as we call him) snapped out of their little hitting slumps.
The Yankees are our nemesis too :-( Did you hear about all the hoopla last week, people wearing "Yankees Suck" T-shirts, and the stadium folks asking them to cover them up or turn 'em inside out? It was pretty funny!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, just got through testing the Freud (1/4" radius, not 1/8) -- still get fuzzies. Other possible causes I can think of:
The alternating hard and soft growth rings of the hemlock are making things difficult
The router, which is a 1hp, 1/4" job, may not have enough speed. Haven't found info on RPMs yet. Don't have my big Freud router ready to go yet.
For the time being, I don't mind quickly sanding the fuzzies off. Oh well.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Shoot, I was sure that would fix it. By any chance would you be accidently upcutting the endgrain ? Be careful and use a long test piece then try going in the oposite direction. Sometimes it can be decieving when you are going around a piece like that.
It could be that the long grain of the hem fir is the problem although I can't remember it being a problem. I wonder what the moisture content of the wood is.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 5/3/2002 2:35:01 PM ET by Steve Schefer
I think you two should exchange ICQ numbers and get a room ! You can talk about the moisture content there. Really thow forest girl, you could have had them all cut and sanded by now. Get back to work and leave Steve alone. Its getting clearer by the minute that you like him. Maybe your router runs hot for him...hmmm? Just ask him out already!! :O
I certainly hope that was more of your misguided humor.. By the way Run4Wood, I'm sitting in my office waiting to retire. I'm bored stiff. I've already scored more points on my minuature basketball net than Michael Jordan has in his entire life.... O.K. so maybe I've missed more.
The bottom line is that even if I was busy as heck, the forum is always up in the background. Forest_Girl is one of the most pleasant people on this site and not afraid to ask for advice when she needs it. Just because we seem to communicate a lot does not indicate anything else and I would appreciate it if you would not make remarks as such. These types of things can get really blown out of proportion and often innocent people get hurt.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 5/3/2002 4:59:50 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Wood strength is inversely correlated to moisture content; that is the strength of the piece decreases with increasing moisture content. In my mind, the wetter the wood, the more likely you are to get fuzzing.
As I have stated previously, a minimal bite will contribute to a greater rate of dulling. Increasing RPM without proportinally increasing the feed speed will only exacerbate the problem of tool wear unless you begin to get machine burn (which might actually solve one problem but will create another).
It is too bad you could not find a HSS bit. While carbide tipped material will wear at a lesser rate, you can never produce as sharp an edge as with HSS. If you have any tapered round stones, I would be tempted to lightly touch-up the back of the edge to see if it might improve the situation. The only other sscenario I could think of to improve the cut would be to create some sort of support (like a chip breaker on a planer) that might minimize fiber deformation. If you have a block plane with an adjustable throat, you will immediately understand the benefits.
I certainly don't know who run4woods is, but it appears this individual thinks that learning is a waste of time.
>> In my mind, the wetter the wood, the more likely you are to
>> get fuzzing.
I think the theory is that since wetting does weaken the fibers, you can cut them off at the tool edge rather than tearing them off above or below your intended surface. I've also seen dampening recommended for hand and machine planing.
Plus there's the infinite variability of wood. Sometimes it will help, sometimes it won't. Sometimes it will make things worse.
Run4Woods has a sense of humor that is unequal to anyone else on this site. Thank God! He means no harm, I think. I just hope he didn't offend f_g. It wouldn't bother me a bit if any of it was true but I think she might feel differently about someone saying those things.
As for router speed and fuzzy wood, you are correct in that when I had a similar problem, I took the router out of the table and cranked it up to 22,000 or was it 20,000, no matter it was at max speed. I then cut very slowly and probably just slightly above the burn point. I had a viper bit like f_g's and had to keep touching it up throughout the process. I was hoping that the Freud bit would fix the problem since out of the box they are usually very sharp.
With all that behind us now, I'm beginning to think that the Hem Fir has a high moisture content and the end grain is being pulled and then cut because of its long grain and elasticity. I think thats pretty much the same thing you said. Steve - in Northern California
Steve, given the materials people have to work with now days , end grain problems are not uncommon. Fast growth farms could care less about anything else but the sale of the product. Whatever your waste percentage is add another 10-20 percent, depending upon what the material is. Moisture content checks on your large orders of wood should always be done and kept on record. Don't feel shy to send something back if its to wet. I say if you want to make anything nice anymore look for a batch of wood that has some age to it. The end result, machining, and "wispage" (warping combo twisting) is kept to a minimum along with the frustration of working with it. The extra money spent can be incorporated into the sale price so don't worry you guys! Now Laun and Teak are a different story all together. Run4wood is stirring things up again I see.
You couldnt be more correct both about the wood and run4wood. A few weeks ago I salvaged some 6/4 redwood from a barn that was built in the mid 1800's. Redwood was plentiful and it is likely that the wood came from the property. The wood was flat as a pancake after all this time. It had some splits but I managed to get 4 6/4 x 8" x 8' pieces out of it. I planed it down to 5/4 and exposed the most beautiful clear heart redwood I have ever seen. It has worm holes throughout but that really adds to the character. I'm not sure what to do with it yet. Forest_Girl suggested table lamps and I like that idea. I was also thinking of clocks or some other decorative item. The wood has lost most of its structural strenght due mainly to the worming so even though it would make a beautiful table top, I don't think it would hold up very well.
So my long winded point is that when done properly, wood products can last more than a lifetime.Steve - in Northern California
Pike, thanks for the post -- I learned a new vocabulary word today, and appreciate your thoughts on wood quality in general.
I have a weird question -- how did you get your response/post to spread so wide across the frame? I had to scroll right-left-right-left...... to read it! Odd.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Niemiec, another informative post, thank you. I've not heard before about HSS producing a sharper edge than carbide. What's the reason behind this?
These project pieces are not of the sort that demands I fix the fuzzing problem -- they're going to be painted with a look-of-granite paint and used to display gaming miniatures on, and I can just touch the fuzzy edges up with sandpaper before painting them.
I'm going to grab a piece of wood that's been in the house for a coon's age and test cut that, and also take a piece of oak from the garage (moisture will be similar to the hemlock) and rout that one and see if the resulting information will solve this mystery.
Have to keep the store open 10-5:30 tomorrow, wish I could be routing and Forstner-bit-drilling and painting instead!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
>> I've not heard before about HSS producing a sharper edge than
>> carbide. What's the reason behind this?
I didn't see anyone else answering your question, so I'll give it a shot. The reason is that carbide is a composite material, while HSS is (more or less) uniform. Carbide is tungsten carbide grains (or titanium carbide, or any of a variety of other very hard substances) in a matrix of cobalt. Think of gravel in concrete.
When you sharpen HSS, as you go to finer and finer grits, you get smaller and smaller scratches in the cutting surface, or smaller and smaller notches in the edge, and you can carry this to ridiculous extremes if you want to, even beyond that green chromium oxide stuff some people use for stropping.
With carbide, as the size of the abrasive grains approaches the size of the carbide grains, you can't get the edge any sharper, because the abrasive won't effectively cut the carbide. Instead, the carbide grains get pulled out of the cobalt, so the notches in the cutting edge never get any smaller than the carbide grains.
It might be possible using very fine diamond dust and a very light touch to actually sharpen the carbide grains on the edge, but that's just speculation on my part. With the current state of the cutting tools industry, no one has come up with an economical way to get carbide bits as sharp as HSS.
The other side of the HSS vs. carbide sharpness question is, suppose you do sharpen a HSS bit until it will shave the hair off your arm. How long can you use it before it's no sharper than the carbide? If it's only a few feet or a few minutes, it's probably not an optimal use of your time.
Edited 5/5/2002 2:12:48 AM ET by UNCLEDUNC
WOW! You guys have been busy! I couldn't believe when I came home from a busy day at the store (3x average receipts today! Yes!!!!!) and found 8 new posts!
I'm going back to read and digest them now. As for Run4wood I find that reading his posts almost invariably takes the fun out of this forum for me. I don't appreciate people who get enjoyment out of goading other people, putting them down (even if he's "kidding") or being inflammatory just for the sake of it. I'm old enough to know what type of people I enjoy being around, and what type of people I don't, and stubborn enough to make the choice. So, I'm going back up to that rather juvenile post above, navigate to his profile, and click on the "Ignore" button.
Ahhhhhh, I love the Ignore button.
PS: Run4wood, it's really none of your business how much time I spend on these boards, and unlike Steve (hi, Steve!) I don't choose to justify or explain it to you. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I agree with the general train of thought being offered as diagnosis, but somehow the results you experienced with both the Viper and Freud bits don't surprise me. I've had the same problem with end grain on soft woods (pine, spruce), no matter whether my bits were brand new or not (admittedly, I've not tried the non plus ultra of bit brands, so maybe a real pricey bit would be different, but I somehow doubt it. The other guys' talk has gotten me interested, though. I think I'll have to pick up a Whiteside bit next time and do a test against my most ordinary of MLCS bits.
Like you, I'm still waiting to hear the perfect (if economical) solution, but for now I've gotten used to sanding the end-grain fuzzies off.
Norm, I think you're right I've finished 9 of these little doo-dahs, which adds up to 38 linear feet of 1/4" roundover/bead. All of the end grain has fuzzies (just on the sharp upright part of the cut), but the sides from the first piece through the last are slick as a whistle. The sanding takes seconds.
I did try a couple of pieces of oak and they were slightly better, but the fuzzies were still there. Haven't tried any bone-dry wood yet though.
Let me know how you do with the Whiteside when you get around to it. I'd like to settle on a brand of bit before I start investing in many more.
Anyone out there have a favorite for the big rabbeting sets?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forest, I wouldn't take contributions here slamming the bits you got from 'The Shed' too seriously. Viper bits aren't fantastic, but they cut pretty well on the whole, and they are cheap, so they have their place in woodworking, even if it is only for a one-off job.
My favourite curmudgeon Stanley (Niemiec) dished out a bunch of solid technical information explaining why you get fuzziness on end grain moulding operations. My advice is to restrain yourself from seeking the bit that cuts perfectly cleanly on end grain. None do, and it's always necessary to get out the scrapers and sandpaper, and the water to raise the grain, plus a bit more sanding prior to polishing if you are looking to do high quality work. Whiteside bits are good, and so are the Viper offerings at their particular price point. I've used carbide router bits from probably most of the makers in the US and Europe, and none of them are 'brilliant' on end grain, especially softwoods. I also grind high speed steel (HSS) cutters razor sharp---much sharper than you'll ever get a carbide router bit--- for use in the spindle moulder (shaper) and I still get fuzziness and other imperfections on both long grain and end grain. It's a fact of woodworking life. We have to live with it, and work with it, and it's just work. Slainte, RJ.http://www.RichardJonesFurniture.com
Norm, wait! Don't go off buying that bit yet! I think I found the answer, and it has to do with grain orientation. It's almost 1 a.m. here, so won't go into it now (wouldn't make sense, even if I tried, zzzzzzzzzz.....) I'l post after work tomorrow, maybe with a couple of pics.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Don't worry, I don't do anything very fast. First off, I have to find a supplier that ships to Japan . . .
Do tell us your solution when you get time.
So is it a climb route...?Steve - in Northern California
Hi Steve, did ya think I wasn't going to tell! Nah. But yesterday, after I got done working at the store, I ran to Silverdale and picked up some parts for dust control (via my old Craftsman shop vac). By the time I got home, was p-o-o-p-e-d! No energy left for routing or even visiting on Knots! So I spent the evening with Nero Wolfe, Dana Scully and my cat.
At any rate, this wood that I made these things out of basically #### (see the Forstner complaints further down). The grain thing I alluded to earlier was this:
PS: Just realized I didn't answer your concise (now there's a concept) question. I haven't tried climb cutting it (assuming you mean feeding in the opposite direction from the usual. In other words, feeding with the rotation of the bit rather than against the rotation. Think that might help?
Ooooooo, how embarassing, I got censored! Definition for the "#####" above is, roughly, "inhales sharply"
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/6/2002 9:30:30 PM ET by forest_girl
Edited 5/6/2002 9:35:29 PM ET by forest_girl
Forestperson;
Uncledunc is more or less correct regarding the ability of HSS to take a sharper edge. You can never get cabide as sharp as HSS.
There is also another factor as well and that is associated with tooth geometry. There are three primary angles you need to consider in understand tooth geometry. Clearance, Sharpness and Rake (aka Hook). If you can imagine a plane iron in a clear plastic body, the clearance angle is the angle between the wood and the blade bevel. The sharpness angle is the angle of the meat of the blade, between the bevel and the face of the blade. The rake or hook angle is the angle between the face of the blade and a line perpendicular from the board at the point of contact of the blade.
These three angles in most situations will sum to 90 degrees.
The clearance angle is necessary because when wood is cut, there is always a certain amount of compression of the wood during cutting and after the blade (tooth) moves on, the wood springs back. And insufficient clearance angle will lead to huge amounts of friction and in rotating blades, bits, knives an insufficient clearance angle will lead to machine burn.
The sharpness angle requires compromise. The lesser (narrower) this angle the sharper the tool will be. Think of a straight razor for example; these blades are very sharp and very thin. The problem is as you go thinner the blade is not rigid enough (it can break or deflect) and there is not enough mass to provide good heat transfer/"adsorption". Remember that heat is the primary source of tool dulling because of both plastic deformation of the sharpness angle and the corrosive actions of the acids within wood (all woods to my knowledge are somewhat acidic from acetic acid and they get more so with extractive acids like tannic.).
Rake/hook angle is the last angle to consider and this is a factor because the more the chip/shaving has to deflect, the greater the amount of work that is required.
HSS is tougher than carbide tooling. Carbide granuales are imbedded in a cobolt mattrix and the cobolt alloy is softer. Solid carbide tooling is extremely brittle To overcome this softness and brittleness, carbide tooling tooth geometry is different than HSS. The clearance angles are both more or less the same (though in some cases, the clearance angle in some HSS tooling will have a 16 to 18 degree clearance angle while with carbide tooling it is generally about 12 degrees. In some situations, I have heard of carbide tooling having a clearance angle of 8 degrees.
What the tool maker is trying to do is increase, as much as possible, the sharpness angle for the needed additional strength. When that angle increases it is generally done by lessing the hook/rake angle. With a thicker sharpness angle you have increased the size of the wedge you are trying to drive into wood. The thicker the wedge, the more force is required. But with a decrease rake/hook angle, the wood chip has to deflect more and this also requires greater amounts of force.
In HSS, the rake/sharpness/clearance angles might be 34/40/16. In carbide you might reasonably see numbers like 26/52/12.
One of the most unfathomable mysteries to me in the standardized tooling that is mostly available is the fact that all manufactures have more or less the same tooth geometry. I do not understand why they do not offer tooling with different rake/hook angles. The primary necessity of this variation is that different woods perform at some optimum hook angle. Thus if you were machining (the following numbers come from a table regarding planing in Peter Koch's book Wood Machining Processes ; Ronald Press 1964).
Red and White oak -- 10-15 degrees
Hard maple -- 20 degrees
Bigleaf maple -- 10 degrees
Cherry -- 30 degrees
Ash -- 25 degrees
Black walnut -- 20 degrees
Basswood -- 25 degrees
Cottonwood -- 5 degrees
These numbers in my mind are not correlated with density of material but instead relate specifically to some unknown property within each individual species. And while these angles produce the best result, they are not strictly followed because with decrease hook angle and increased sharpness angles, power requirements really increase dramatically. But I would like to have the option to buy a router bit or a planer head that is not set by the factory at some fixed angle by its manufacturer. For router bits, I would really like to be given a choice between (ideally) say 20, 28, and 36 degree rake angles. Hell, I'd be thrilled to have a choice between 20 and 30 degrees for the given profiles. The only way I now know how to do this is to chose either HSS or carbide and it is really difficult to find HSS router bits and sharper cutters.
With regard to your Forstner bit, I would be tempered to sharpen it as well to insure that it too is actually as sharp as it could/should be. And you might experiment with rotational speed (if you have a multispeed drill press).
Sorry for the delay in responding; I actually get some time away from my computer and when it happens, it is really amazing that I don't miss it or go through withdrawal.
Forest Girl - I have found the Viper bits obtained at HD to be the softest carbide I have ever encountered. A 1/2" quarter round was dull after cutting 5' of stock.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Yep, they haven't gotten rave reviews here. I took it back yesterday. Only used it that one time, and then went and grabbed a Freud locally (didn't even realize our local guys carried Freud. A new thing, I guess). As you can see by the other posts, that didn't cure the fuzzies though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
O.K. I forgive you... You can sometimes... not always... avoid the problem by climb routing, cut and run (wet) lumber. As for the forstners... Nothing you can do to fix that problem except let it dry. The flakeing at the bottom of the hole is because the grain is still bound by the moisture and its not cutting cleanly. Its just like cutting a tomato. ..... You do cook don't you...You better or the conversation is off and I'll change to my alternate name and I'll be cuttoff. (humor intended... and if you are as sharp as I think you are you got the clue.)Steve - in Northern California
Hi Steve, yes I cook :) How well, I won't venture to express, but I get by LOL Have pretty much forgotten how to BBQ though -- doesn't feel right when it's under 85 degrees, and we haven't seen 85 in a very, very, very long time! Can you tell I'm getting tired of the weather (whine, whine).
Well, I better go out and get the next batch of 1x4's (assuming optimistically that these little dudes are going to sell to my little customers -- most of my customers are under-teen-agers). Put 'em in the house, with all this extra space I have -- Not! How long does a 6' 1x4" take to get "dry enough" in a dry, pretty darn warm, house?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie, assuming that this is dimensional lumber then it was once dry enough for the intial milling. The moisture that is in it is probably re-absorbed moisture that should dry out in about 2 weeks of indoor acclimation.Steve - in Northern California
Jamie, I think I finaly found root cause. The one piece of Hem Fir is western and the ones your working with now are eastern. Probably a sesional harvesting problem in the Great North West... Makes sense to me...Go figure after all this its just as simple as this. LOL ... Oh well, at least you now know where to get Freud bits locally.
This article was found at Wood Central -
Hemlock Recently I was asked the difference between Western and Eastern Hemlock. Many of us from New England know that Eastern Hemlock (Tsuga canadensis) is an evergreen with short, flat needles and it is a native of the Eastern U.S. and adjacent Canada. It grows as far west as eastern Minnesota and south to the mountains of northern Georgia.
It is extremely shade tolerant which allows it to hang around and finally take off when other competition dies off, thus becoming a "climax" specie. At maturity, Eastern Hemlock can reach large size and great age: the record is 988 years old, 84" diameter breast height, and 160' tall. The lumber is used primarily for beams and other structural building members. It is strong, heavy, and unfortunately the grain separates and wood sections can lift. I remember walking in stocking feet on my sub floor and getting bloodily impaled. Shake, or ring separation, is very common.
The Western Hemlock (Tsuga heterophylla) is similar in many respects but produces superior lumber. It is more even-grained with narrower rings, has a more gradual transition from earlywood to latewood, and a finer texture. The specific gravities are close: .40 for Eastern and .44 for Western. At building centers, Western Hemlock and Western Firs are lumped into a single commerical grade designation "HEM-FIR" because their properties are similar enough to be used interchangeably.
Western Hemlock grows along the Pacific Coast from Alaska to Northwestern California and east to Northern Idaho and Montana. Under ideal growing conditions, the trees grow to 3' - 4' diameters and 175' - 225' tall. Larger trees exist, but those over 5' in diameter are rare. Like Eastern Hemlock, it is also very shade tolerant and is a "climax" species.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 5/7/2002 5:32:22 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Steve, you're a genius! and persistent in pursuit of the truth! Since I got the original, easy-to-work wood from the local Lumbermen's store, and the icky wood from Home Depot, it would make sense that they could be different species. I'll talk with the guys at Lumbermen's and see if they can comment.
The description of the advantages of the Western over the Eastern sounds very much like the differences I noticed in working the 2 woods. I'll pick up some hemlock from Lumbermen's in the next couple days and see how it goes.
Thanks for posting that info!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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