Replies

1. 
   roc | Nov 14, 2012 04:54am | #1

   You are right . . . Tommy is right

   (I figured I would add a little mortar to fill in the gaps.)

   Gosh . . .

   you are more cynical about the skill level potential of the modern up and coming craftsman than I am.  And that takes some splinters in the seat of our britches let me tell you.

   Over all I agree with you.

   I also know from experience that NEARLY EVERY HAND PLANE I HAVE BOUGHT from the better makers you have listed, if a keen and experienced eye be applied, did in fact need some attention to one or more of the areas mentioned by Tommy Mac.

   WHY ?

   BECAUSE THE TOOLS WERE, FOR THE MOST PART, MADE BY . . . 

   modern up and coming craftsman . . .

   who DID NOT have a keen and experienced eye OR THE TIME THEY REALLY NEEDED to do adequate quality work.

   WHY?

   Because they and their employers were "competing" with the substandard junk that you listed first in your post.

   SO

   Lets add some SOMETIMES , UNLESSs, MAYBEs and IFs in there and so encourage the exceptions to the rule.

   In other words YOU EXCEPTIONS already know who you are so go on and fettle some great tools for your selves.

   If you are sitting there wondering if you should fettle or use as is

   THEN

   You should use as is

   FOR NOW

   Be warned though if unexpected things happen when you plane, or use other hand tools, these unexpected outcomes MAY be caused by a less than squared away tool and not just because you are learning and do not have your "technique" down.

   SOMETIMES NO MATER HOW YOU HOLD YOUR TOUNG THAT SAW IS GOING TO CUT TO THE LEFT OR THAT PLANE IS GOING TO CHATTER AND OR TEAR OUT.

   Two of the most frustrating and unfair situations I have run across is erroneous info that is expected to be regurgitated on a written test

   and

   poorly fettled tools used by an unsuspecting newbie.

   What is the solution for the crowd who says "I don't know if I should be fettling or not" ?

   Spend your every waking spare moment  learning your skills and most days add in a few more semi awake moments late into the night .  Making mistakes and learning from them and practicing over and over and over.  Throw in some metal working study and some mechanics study.  And I am not kidding when I say take a Tai Chi class or two it will make you a better craftsperson.  How ?  Do it and you will find out.  It will teach you about  subtlety, balance (and I don't just mean standing on one foot) and how to slow down and focus, to be observant, to connect our hands and muscles up with our brain (something we modern people need more than we realize ) so that you may go fast when it is required.  No that is not just BS.  You want to learn the old hand tool ways then you need to put yourself into THAT mental space not the "I pushed the button/I paid the bill why isn't it done now" modern mental space.

   This is called paying your dues.

   There may even be a ruined hand plane sacrificed to this process.

   Hurts doesn't it !

   But to quote Stephen Covey "If , early in the year,  you don't plant the seeds and nurture them and instead just screw around all season there will be nothing to harvest come harvest time".

   He called it "The Law Of The Farm".  His point was . . . there was no way to cheat on a farm.  You had to do the preparation; in the right order; small things leading to big things.  You couldn't just go out in the field at the last minute and yank the corn out of the ground.  You couldn't create the illusion in an observers mind that there was a field of corn there when in fact there wasn't.

   I call it "Playing Scales".

   It's Not Quick, It's Not Easy, BUT It Is Necessary To Study (which by the way is DIFFERENT than memorizing).

   Newbies ! ! ! !

   Are you still reading this ?  You should be in the shop making or breaking something.

1. 
   cahudson42 | Nov 26, 2012 04:59pm | #2

   Screwing Up a Good Plane..

   Hi Roc,

   What really got me on this FWW video was the 80-grit dry paper being used on the sole. Arghhh!

   I have a set of #3, 4, 5 and 6 WoodRivers - none of which needed this abuse. I also have 2 of the Veritas 'regular' block planes - one setup with the aux handles as a #3 smoother - and my absolutely favorite plane - the Veritas 4 1/2 low angle heavy wide smoother. All Beautiful. Maybe some day I'll hit the lottery and get some Lie-Nielsens, but my next plane - when wife is not around to question the UPS delivery - is going to be the Veritas low-angle Jack, with the new PM blade..:>)

   I also have Groz and Anant paperweights galore - acquired in early days..

   I think the differences between the junk and the great Veritas/Lie-Nielsen planes, even the WoodRivers,  are much less recognized than they should be. 

   Another reason for the Post. Now I see a new Post - with a video reference even - also questioning the same abuse.

   I like FWW and most everything they recommend. But this is one case of a total screw-up on their part.

2. 
   roc | Nov 26, 2012 09:34pm | #3

   I am sorry, I must respectfully disagree.

   It sounds like we have many things we agree on here so I hope I am not being too obtuse on this one small point.  I really like the Veritas planes and wish you well getting another one through your door under the radar as it were.

   However 80 grit is appropriate.  My reason for saying that is when attempting to take even a small amount of material off a large flat metal area such as a plane sole the going is very slow and frustrating with less coarse grits and the sharpness of the grit breaks down rapidly and so does not cut any where as fast as it does on wood.

   Here's to divers and lively discussions about Fine Woodworking subjects such as this one.

1. 
   cahudson42 | Nov 27, 2012 10:04am | #4

   Hmmm. Interesting, Roc. Maybe I should take one of my Groz/Anant paperweights and give it a shot..:>)

   I was thinking the 80-grit would leave deep, deep scratch marks. But perhaps the 'grit breaking down'  makes this  a non-issue?

   Do you have any photos by chance?

   Chris

1. 
   Pat_Megowan | Nov 27, 2012 07:11pm | #5

   80 grit - it depends

   Hi Chris, 

   Choosing grits to flatten a sole is a lot like choosing for sanding wood--choose based on how much material you want to remove, how fast you feel OK going, the surface quality you want in the end, and frankly, what grits you have on hand. 

   I recently flattened an atrocious new Record no. 4 for a friend. It was concave along the length, convex across the width, and couldn't take a clean shaving to save itself. We flattened it with 80 grit (which I had on hand), taking great care to use even pressure and spread the wear over the whole paper surface evenly, including working somewhat off the edges of the paper in a systematic way. A dense grid of sharpie lines on the sole gave feedback. It took under 10 minutes, and was able to take a predictable .002" shaving with only that level of finish (plus sharpening and a proper blade setting). 

   We did not hold it by the tote and knob, which is an easy way to twist the sole (for me anyhow). We worked on a machine table (a large bandsaw as it happens, but anything is fine if flat and you clean up the sanding grit well) and stood behind the plane, with pressure at the center and down at sole level, essentially bridging the frog/blade with the crook of each hand. Not the only good way, but one. 

   The 80 grit surface on the sole wasn't glorious, but it wasn't atrocious either and it planed smoothly enough w/a little wax. Maybe a sub-thou shaving needs a finer finish, I didn't test that. A top custom plane maker I know goes up to 320--whatever makes you happy! 

   A Groz, Anant, or other poorly made plane is exactly the place to practice. 

   P

3. 
   roc | Nov 28, 2012 12:34am | #6

   No photos of coarse scratches but let me say this about that

   You asked do I have any photos.  I suppose you mean of the scratches on the sole of a plane I flattened with 80 grit.  No . . . I seam to be getting the idea  some people here are thinking that if 80 grit is used to FLATTEN the sole then that is the finish one is stuck with.  It is fine to use less coarse grits to smooth the sole once the errors have been removed from the sole.

   There is more to plane sole preparation than merely making the surface flat; if anyone cares to learn more.  It is actually beneficial to "relieve" areas of the sole so they don't even touch the surface of the work or touch it less firmly so that other areas are going to be the reference and guides for the plane.  This is subtle stuff but it works.  Probably more important for a wooden plane but is still of use in a metal bodied plane.  The top shelf wooden coffin smoother I bought this year from a master plane maker had , in fact, been dressed in this way.  Putting a precision straight edge lengthwise on the sole clearly showed the care with which it was prepared as I loosely described above.

   To learn in detail what I am talking about see this book.

   http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Woodworking-Tools-Tradition-Spirit/dp/0941936465/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354078523&sr=1-1&keywords=toshio+odate

   The Japanese Shokunin have been aware of this for hundreds of years.  And yes it makes a difference.

   For the mid price plane makers (LN and Varitas) to prepare their planes this way they would probably have to at least double the price so I am not detracting from their fine reputations; I am just saying there are refinements to be made if you want Ferrari performance.   I DO so I do.

   PS: I see my last post said "divers" the darn auto correct thing on my text edit program won't stay on show misspellings and resets to auto correct.  Ps me off because it puts in things I don't intend.  Or maybe I have a fun loving second personality. What I was attempting to type was "diverse".

   PPS: Well here are photos but probably not what you were expecting.  I can't show soles prepared with coarse paper because they were smoothed with finer.  Obviously to see 80 grit scratches on cast iron or bronze just take the plane over the grit.  To remove the coarse scratches use finer grit.  What can I say beyond that ?  The bronze plane wasn't very far out but I had to resort to 80 grit because 120 or what have you was taking too long.  I then relived the areas you will see in the book and polished up the sole some with finer grits.