Replies

1. 
   DonStephan | Jun 26, 2002 03:32pm | #1

   About a month ago I started using water stones after years with oil stones and a couple months with sandpaper. Liked the latter's convenience, but the sandpaper always seemed to lose its initial cutting ability very quickly, which was a tremendous frustration. I count on 20 seconds to flatten the 800 stone on 220(?) wet/dry after each session, and the 1200 stone less often, and don't mind it at all. And don't expect to use the 800 on any given edge more than once or twice a year. Use a leather strop with green honing compound more often than a stone to maintain an edge. I was also surprised by the Tormek experience, and glad to remove an expensive item from my wish list.

2. 
   alexlisa | Jun 26, 2002 08:00pm | #2

   I tried the sandpaper on glass method. I also found that the paper seems to dull very fast. I have gone back to my old routine, which works well:

   Three grades of DMT diamond stones, Coarse, Fine, and Extra Fine (about 1200 grit?) followed by a King 6000 grit waterstone, and a few strokes on a leather strop. This will shave my arm hair nicely. I polish the chisel backs every time with the waterstone up to a mirror finish. I use the Veritas guide and a simple holding jig for the stones. I use the medium DMT diamond stone to flatten the waterstone perodically. Works for me.

3. 
   jeffn7 | Jun 26, 2002 08:07pm | #3

   funny, my tormek temptation hasn't been assuaged yet... a Tormek has a motor, stones do not! Seriously, my waterstones keep all my tools plenty sharp and it only takes a minute to setup.

4. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jun 27, 2002 01:21am | #4

   Hi Dave,

   My trade is materials engineering and the author of the article has done a good job in comparing the micro-photographs of the edges with her practical experiences.

   As well, my cabinetmaking training was only to use a red alumina stone - approx 800#. The key thing is to get the secondary bevel absolutely flat and true, hone the back of the blade and (rarely quoted by stone manufacturers) is to strop properly & thoroughly afterwards. We used a piece of oiled, heavy leather, impregnated with green (chromic oxide) paste - From memory, I think that it's 5-10 micron.

   This is the edge that my teacher, a German tradesman of 40 years experience, used daily.

   At home/work, I use a piece of 60#, 120#, 180# and 220# wet & dry glued onto 10mm float glass to grind primary bevels, with an oilstone and strop to work the cutting edge.

   Repeating what I said earlier, the key thing according to my training was to hone the back of the blade, keep the bevel dead flat and true and strop thoroughly.

   Having said this, the waterstones do give a sharper edge, and probably have done for thousands of years, hence their reputation, but I feel the difference is academic.

   As well, I wonder how much of the multitude of options for sharpening available are driven by marketing hype and how much are driven by genuine progress.

   For me, I'll be sticking to what I learnt and worked well in the times when Western tradesmen relied on their hand tools, but keeping an open mind on developments.

   Cheers,

   Eddie

1. 
   Biscardi | Jun 27, 2002 04:32am | #5

   Goodness me. Always such a fuss about sharpening. No matter how nice an edge you put on it it will dull with a few minutes use (with regards to plane blades) and you have to redo it. I get things sharp enough to cut hairs in less than 5 minutes with three oil stones.

   I really don't care a fig about scanning electonmicrographs. I use steel scalpels all the time even though I know obsidian ones give finer edges- the reason being that they cut through skin just fine.

   Frank

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jun 27, 2002 06:05am | #7

   Hi Frank,

   Your reply used far fewer words, but I tried to say the same as you. I'm sticking to my oilstone, just stropping afterwards.

   Cheers,

   Eddie

   Edited 6/26/2002 11:06:07 PM ET by eddie

2. 
   dhpascoe | Jun 29, 2002 10:02pm | #15

   I agree but for many people tools are an end in themselves. First time I tried the sandpaper method, I was sold because it took so little time, is very easy and does a superb job. A sheet of paper is a buck while some invest hundreds in stones and diamonds and I'd be willing to bet their planes don't cut any better than mine. Of course, lacking an elaborate sharpening ritual leaves me with little to talk about so all I can do is marvel at this religion of sharpening. At least it's more productive and less violent than islam.

   Dusty Dave

   Edited 6/29/2002 3:08:26 PM ET by none

   Edited 6/29/2002 3:10:10 PM ET by none

1. 
   JohnYaya | Jul 01, 2002 06:15pm | #17

   "At least it's more productive and less violent than islam."

   Golly, that sure is an open minded statement.

1. 
   alexlisa | Jul 02, 2002 12:29am | #18

   Open minded? Perhaps not. Accurate? Perhaps yes. Actions speak louder than words. Unfortunately, a great religion has been held hostage to it's most fanatical adherents, with the connivance of a number of Arab governments. We are left to make our generalizations, bought and paid for in American blood.

2. 
   TimSams | Jul 02, 2002 01:02am | #19

   OK folks, let's nip this side discussion please and stay on topic...

   I sharpen my tools with my teeth.

   Tim____________Tim SamsAssociate Editor, Fine WoodworkingKnots Moderator

3. 
   RevTed | Jul 02, 2002 02:33am | #20

   Tim--

   You might want to try selling those teeth on Ebay. Prices are darn close to retail for used-but-not-abused bicuspids and incisors.

   Rev Ted

4. 
   dhpascoe | Jul 02, 2002 04:23am | #23

   I'm not going to  bite on that hook! This is no place for politics and I'm sorry I said that for that reason.

   Dave

5. 
   Alan | Jun 27, 2002 05:14am | #6

   Unfortunatly--for me--the power grinding bug bit me good.  So I'm now the not very happy owner of a Makita wet grinder.  I chose the Makita over the Tormek because I don't like hollow ground bevels.  I don't know why; pure aesthetics I guess.

   The Makita is not designed to sharpen hand tools:  it's designed to sharpen planer and jointer knives.  I don't know how good a job it does on those, because I don't own either machine.  To do hand tools, even simple ones like plane irons and chisels, is a struggle.  The "hand tool jig" that they sold me for use on the Makita is terrible; the machine is frustratingly difficult to set up for hand tools.  Everyone I know who uses a Makita for hand tools either free-hands or has jury rigged some kind of home-built jig.

   Suffice to say I'm back to doing all my sharpening on my water stones.

   You do have to keep up with them to keep water stones flat.  I got one of those ceramic flattening stones; that works great.  On my softer stones (coarse grit stones) I just make up my mind I have to re-flatten them every fifteen or twenty minutes.  With the ceramic stone it takes no more than a minute--usually less--to flatten a water stone.  I make sure I flatten each water stone each time I use it.

   My stones are getting rather thin (I've had them for more than twenty years) and I'm leaning towards the Norton stones as replacements.  Any comments from users?  The FWW article certainly raved about them.

   Alan

1. 
   RevTed | Jun 30, 2002 04:45am | #16

   Alan--

   You might want to try selling the Makita on Ebay. Prices are darn close to retail for used-but-not-abused Maks and Torms.

   Rev Ted

6. 
   ChasStanford | Jun 28, 2002 12:11am | #8

   It makes one wonder what Goddard and Townsend, Sheraton, and the rest of the bunch did before the invention of diamond paste.

   Sharp tools existed before the year 2002; take all these articles with a grain of salt.  If you're having trouble, then try a new method.  If you're not, then don't.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/27/2002 5:15:57 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD

1. 
   Biscardi | Jun 28, 2002 02:07am | #9

   CS

   Good to see you back on the forum!

   I saw my Grandfather sharpen tools with a rock out of the garden.

   Frank

1. 
   wamara | Jun 28, 2002 05:10am | #10

   Great discussion. I always thought the real issue was cutting and not sharpening, but as to sharpening the metal is in my experience more important than the sharpening system. I have a number of chisels and some take an edge much more easily and quickly than others, they also hold the edge longer. My experience on good steel is with a variety of arkansas oil stones, some manmade stones and I strop on a variety of materials including the side of my shoe or boot and copy paper. I always grind on sandpaper laid on my tablesaw or other flat piece piece of metal. I usually test the edge of a chisel on the end grain of white pine or another very sof t species. If I can pare a slice I can see through and it stays in one piece I am happy and proceed on. The process usually takes less than ten minutes.

1. 
   GregB126 | Jun 28, 2002 06:51am | #11

   I agree.  Good discussion.  The bottom line is indeed cutting, rather than sharpening.  There also is the matter of speed in getting where one is satisfied and then back to work.  It was good of FWW to publish the comparison, especially when there are so many products out there, all claiming to be the way to go.  There is something else to consider these days, though.  Some of the newer replacement irons may be a bit tougher than what Sheraton, et al. had.  We want it that way, these better edge-holding irons.  The best modern replacements are also a bit thicker.  So maybe the faster acting diamond stones are better when these irons are being used.   Hollow grinding and micro bevels are also useful when wishing to quickly hone an ultrasharp cutting edge.

   Here's to personal preference!  Mine is a combination of diamond stone (if necessary), then water stones, then, if I want to, some 3 and then .5 micron mylar-backed abrasive on glass.  I actually do want the block plane, skew rabbit plane and iron miter down to the .5 micron.  Once there, it takes so very little to hone them back to .5 again.  This is about as fine as one can get with the paste, and is exactly the same technique as any other paper-on-glass.  I believe the end grain planing, especially on difficult timber works out better with the sharper edge.

   Thanks again to FWW for the focus on this important area.

   Cheers,

   Greg

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jun 28, 2002 09:56am | #12

   Greg,

   Could you suggest a source for the mylar back abrasives?

2. 
   GregB126 | Jun 28, 2002 09:30pm | #14

   I get mine at the Japan Woodworker.  I usually grab a couple of sheets on the way to the counter when I'm there.  Their online catalog is terrific, and they will send you a hard copy if you like.  The sheets I'm speaking of are the 3M "micro finishing sheets" on page 53 of the catalogue.  They are either adhesive backed or not.  I get the not, but see an advantage in getting adhesive backed if, for example, you want to make a round hone by cutting a strip and wrapping it around a dowel or something.  That might be useful with gouges or shaped carving tools.  The catalogue indicates grit size of 15, 5 and .5 micron, the later being "roughly" 9000 grit (sorry, I couldn't resist).  I could have sworn my own were 9, 5 and .5.  Maybe there's a difference in what is on hand at the store.

   I just take a plain sheet and put it on the glass with a little water to hold it in place.  Have never used an adhesive and it holds just fine.  Especially at the .5, the iron is so darn sharp you need to use pull strokes, drawing the iron to you, rather than pushing back and forth.  Pushing with any pressure can cause it to slice right through.  It also seems to make the sheets wear out a bit faster, I think.  Regardless of how one hones the bevel day to day, polishing a chisel or plane iron's back down to .5 for a half inch or so makes sense to me.  Again, I like anything tackling endgrain to get an extra good honing.  Less frustration in the end.

   When going through the whole process, as with a new chisel or plane iron, I start with the diamond stone, then water stones, then the sheets for final honing.  The glass plate is out anyway, as I put a sheet of wet & dry 220 grit on it for ensuring water stone flatness with a couple of quick strokes of the stone.  For the final honing on the 3M sheets, the glass is right there and this honing takes only a few seconds, literally.  While actually working, I may just polish up a bit with the sheets only.  They cut quickly and a polishing takes only a few seconds, sometimes dry if I'm in a hurry.

   Here is the link http://www.japanwoodworker.com/  Ironically, I see page 53 is on the page opposite the Tormek!

   Cheers,

   Greg

2. 
   ChasStanford | Jun 28, 2002 04:25pm | #13

   Thanks Frank.  I actually liked the article.  I think the most informative part of it was the "dubbing over" of the edges sharpened on the Tormek.  This makes perfect sense to me.  If you try to perform final honing of an edge on a rotating circular stone I don't see how dubbing over could be avoided.  But some people swear by these things and if they get good results then more power to 'em.

   I tried waterstones and didn't like having to flatten them.  I always sweated whether or not they were flat.  I spent too much time worrying about the stones.  What works for me is sandpaper on glass, oilstones, and ceramic stones. 

   I use the ceramics for quick touch-ups during the work day.  I use a medium oilstone when I let an edge go too far between honings.  My sandpaper system starts with 400 grit and goes up to 2000 grit.  I work the edges that I think I'll use each day on the sandpaper (in the mornings) and then use the ceramic stone during the day if needed.

   I really might try the diamond paste for the hell of it to be perfectly honest.  I'd like to know if I get noticeably better edges.

   CStanford

7. 
   RLMillard | Jul 02, 2002 04:04am | #21

   I have been sharpening blades that I could shave with before I could shave. When I was 12, I bought a jointer plane, a hand cranked grinder, a Norton combination India stone, and someone gave me a broken white translucent Arkansas stone. That system remained my sharpening routine, until about a year ago when I added 800-2000 grit paper glued to a piece of glass. After reading the recent article on sharpening systems, I purchased some of the diamond compound, and it is great stuff. I sharpened my smooth plane using the 1 micron diamond paste on a piece of MDF ( it was too hot to look through my lumber for a piece of maple). I used the plane to surface a birch card table hinge, and the results were super. I noticed a definite reduction in the force need to push the plane. I can’t say the surface was better, because I got an outstanding surface before. I have attached a photo showing the back of a Lie-Nielsen block plane blade that I polished with the diamond paste. As you will see, the result is a mirror finish, which took about 30 seconds to achieve ( the blade was already flattened and polished on 2000 grit paper). I do not bother to polish the back of bench plane irons that are bedded a 45 degrees, since I hone a back bevel on these. I only polish the backs my chisels, irons that are bedded at 50 degrees or more, and irons that ride bevel up, anything else is a waste of time ( for me anyway).

   
1. 
   BG | Jul 02, 2002 04:15am | #22

   The article on sharpening couldn't have been more timly for this newbee.  I was prepared to spend a small fortune to get my tools sharp...instead I bought some wet dry paper for a few bucks...wow..what a difference on the planes.  I haven't quite figured out how to attack the turning tools...maybe next months issue?