Good Afternoon,
I received a $100 gift certificate to the Garrett Wade catalog earlier this year. I figured I would probably use it towards a LN plane, a smoother of some type. I actually came to this forum to poke around and get some feedback on the various LN planes and instead I read alot about the Veritas line of planes by Lee Valley. However, Garrett Wade doesn’t carry Veritas planes.
So my question is this:
Does the bevel up Smoother offer any advantages over the LN low angle smoother or jack ? If so what & why. Can you really not use the bevel up smoother with a shooting board ?
If the bevel up smoother is the “better” product then I can always use my gift certificate to Garrett Wade for something else and just purchase the Veritas plane directly.
Thanks,
Joe
Oxford, CT.
Replies
LN and LV planes are both excellent. Which you choose is more a matter of prefernce than performance.
You are correct that the LV smoother does not have machined sides, and therefore is less optimal than the LV BU jack (which does have machined sides) for shooting.
I have the LN BU jack, and wouldn't trade it for anything.
Samson,
You use the LN BU Jack.
Do you camber the blade?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
No I have plenty of other planes for camber tasks.
L-N 4 1/2 with the York pitch frog, a wonderful all around smoother IMHO.
Napie,
He is talking about bevel ups not bevel downs.
"Did you copy, over"Philip Marcou
Oh boy, you're going to get a lot of feedback on this one. I have both the LV smoother and the LN jack. I like them both although the jack may be a better choice because it is more versitile. You can adjust the jack to take a very fine shaving or you can use it as a more aggressive plane.
Jim
Yes, I get the feeling that there is alot of strong opinions about the two brands.
The York pitch LN smoother is very nice but also the most expensive of all the smoothers made by either company. I was hoping to spend less than $300. I like either one of the low angle planes from what I've read so far. Is there any real difference between the two ? I like how Vertias offers blades ground to different angle so you can imitate a York pitch setup. Like I said in my initial post. The only curveball in my situation is my gift certificate is to Garrett Wade which does not carry Veritas planes (that I'm aware of), only LN so if I were to go with the Veritas I would have to use the gift certificate for something else and fork the entire $245 out of my pocket.
Edited 10/21/2008 3:08 pm ET by JoeOxfordCT
Advantage of Veritas bevel up smoother:
• has a stop so when you close the throat after reinstalling the blade you don't risk banging the blade edge with the iron throat part when you reclose the throat.
• Flatter sole than my LN smoothers. Yes I find it is enough to make a tangible difference. Invariably the toe and tail are higher than the area in front of the blade which must also touch the same plane as it were. This can result in a slightly convex surface and misinformation between the plane and the user about the surface. See Toshio Odate's book Japanese Woodworking tools for the particulars and also:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2091
• Norris style adjuster
• side blade stop screws so blade is repositioned in the slot more quickly and accurately. Questionable value but I like them.
>Does the bevel up Smoother offer any advantages over the LN low angle smoother or jack ?
I am a little unclear if you ask about Veritas smoother verses LN or LN smooth verses LN bevel up
The LN bevel up Smoother I do not own but have used. the mechanism is complicated but seems to do a better job of adjusting the blade than the LN bevel up or jack. Smaller and smoother movement of the blade for amount of knob turn and no "tilt problem". More on "tilt" to follow bellow.
Some times with the BU/jack the lever cap moves with the blade if I go too far then back then forward but less again. Not a big problem and I like the LN BU and Jack but not as refined as the LN bevel up Smoother. The trade off here is quicker to change blades on the BU/jack and the blades may be more inter changeable between BU/jack and other planes in the line.
>bevel up smoother is the "better" product?
Ok we are talking Veritas bevel up smoother . . . it is to die for as they say. I highly recommend it. There is almost nothing it won't do. (except shoot). One thing I will stress; the blade is very wide. If you are attempting to plane hunks off a very hard board then, as with any other plane you are planing hunks off with, get another blade and sharpen it for this purpose. That is; put a pronounced radius on the blade. All that width in the straight across blade causes it to rise up on the surface when not fully sharp and it is quite a hand full to push that wide blade during a heavy cut in any case. I am not a big fan of long jointer planes though I have a LN and a Veritas. Nice to look at and builds your shoulder muscles and traps up some thing beautiful but I could get along fine with the Veritas bevel up smoother and my straight edge and square for large boards.
Sounds like you are up for getting several planes so best to reserve the smoother for final finish and get a jack or dare I say it. I will say it. A scrub for scrubbing.
>Can you really not use the bevel up smoother with a shooting board ?
yes the sides of the Veritas bevel up smoother curve and probably are not square to sole. They roughly call this a coffin shape.
Looks like the LN bevel up Smoother could be used on a shooting board in a pinch but it is a small short plane and a longer plane like a jack or the miter plane is preferable to shoot.
For the shooting board I can highly recommend the LN "Iron Miter Plane" ! serious bucks but no regrets here.
I can sing the praises of Veritas planes all day if you want more info.
I have many LNs and like them very much. Also hard to beat the aesthetic of the brass, black iron and cherry wood. Oooolala ! Yah I'm a tool turkey. Buy 'em and look at 'em. I admit I have a problem.
Back to Veritas. I find the Veritas soles to be more accurate and the mechanisms more useful and refined.
e.g., the Veritas bevel up smoother has a Norris style adjuster that works infinitely better than the disc in slot that the LN bevel up jack uses and a little better than the stanley bedrock style the LN smoother and miter plane use. To be fair if they put on these complex and accurate adjusters on the coarser planes the price of the planes would go up so they got your best interests at heart right?
Disc in slot adjuster that the LN bevel up jack and others use that causes "tilt problem" :
After smoothing the edges of the slot and disc and lubing I still find the blade can be accidentally "tilted" when turning the blade advance adjust knob (has the disk on this knob). Some times I get frustrated with it and just tap the blade with a plane adjusting hammer with the knob taken off.
When do I need to do this you ask? Seems to have to do with the position of the planets or the humidity or something. Just kidding but you get what I mean.
My only complaint about Veritas is they don't have a T-shirt so it cramps my fan boy style.
To the shop me Hardies !
Edited 10/21/2008 3:24 pm by roc
Edited 10/21/2008 3:31 pm by roc
Edited 10/21/2008 3:49 pm by roc
Edited 10/21/2008 3:59 pm by roc
Another vote for the LN low angle jack. I believe that the LN low angle smoother has a slightly trickier system for mounting the blade. Also I like the slight additional length of the jack even for smoothing. Both LV and LN are excellent products and great companies who stand behind their products. In any case with a low angle plane you may find (as I do) that it's useful to have a second blade sharpened (with a microbevel) at a higher angle. My most used plane is a LN low angle jack (#62) with a blade sharpened at 35 degrees.
It's true, the Veritas Bevel-Up Smoother can't be used on its side. However, the Veritas Low Angle Smooth Plane is great for shooting.
I don't quite know what Veritas is thinking with these two; I mean, they both have bevel-up blades bedded at 12 degrees. The difference is that the "Low Angle Smooth Plane" is lighter (3.5 vs 5 lbs) and has a slightly narrower blade (2" vs 2.25"). Very confusing.
Anyhow, I have the LASP, with the 25 and 38 degree blades, and I'm very happy with it. I've used it for smoothing difficult wood (with the high-angle blade), trimming end-grain (with the low-angle blade), and on a long shooting board to joint veneer edges.
Joe
You asked,
Does the bevel up Smoother offer any advantages over the LN low angle smoother or jack ? If so what & why. Can you really not use the bevel up smoother with a shooting board ?
The Veritas BUS is one of the outstanding smoothers around and (when set up with the approapriate cutting angle) will outperform anything else in its price range.
My review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Smoother.html
But you must understand that it has its limitations. It is first and foremost a smoother. In this guise it is superb. It cannot be used on a shooting board as the sides are not flat. Frankly I do not see that this is a problem - it is a plane that you want to dedicate to smoothing (and smoothing of the most difficult grain), not use as a jack of all trades (the LA Jack is just that sort of plane).
Secondly, BU planes - unless used on a shooting board - are better suited to those comfortable with honing guides. If you only want to freehand your blades, then look elsewhere. The value in the low-centre-of-gravity BU plane is that it is extremely easy to set up and most comfortable to use, but the reason it has such potentially amazing performance as a smoother is that is can be easily set up for very high cutting angles (I use a cutting angle of 62 degrees). Few BD planes can reach this cutting angle. Certainly not the Stanley/LN bench plane range (and I am disregarding the option of backbevels on the latter as this simply complicates sharpening even more).
To obtain a high cutting angle on BU planes, a honing guide makes the processs child's play.... however, you need to be prepared to use one to create secondary bevels. This is not the type of angle you can create freehand. Say, 50 degrees ... give or take a few degrees .. is a specific task. By contrast, a BD plane does not care what angle you hone at.
As a smoother for difficult grain the BU plane is definitely worth the effort. Here is another review, this time featuring the BUS and a Marcou ...
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Marcou%20S15%20BU%20Smoother.html
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Now the LN LA Jack verses the Veritas LA Jack....
Both these planes are superb. They are different planes in many ways, one importantly being size. The LN is a rebuild of the Stanley #62 (think of this as a #5 size), while the Veritas is a larger, heavier plane (think of this as a #5 1/2 size). I like using both planes, and they have pros and cons. The LN feels smaller, which makes it a more comfortable plane on smaller work. It is really the same effective width as the Veritas (2" verses 2 1/4"). However, the Veritas is prefered on the shooting board owing to its greater mass and adjustments. The point I want to make is that they afre not equivalent planes, and that you really need to try both out if you want to go down this line.
The other point about a LAJ is that, while some like to use these as a "supersmoother", I do not. I prefer short planes as smoothers. The LAJ does, however, make a fantastic panel plane for large surfaces. These planes can smooth a surface as well as the BUS. It is a good choice as a smoother for those who flatten boards with machines. It is a great allrounder for all others.
Another review of interest: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Son%20of%20Stan%20or%20LV%20and%20its%20development%20of%20the%20Bevel%20Up%20Jack%20plane..html
Veritas LAJ and Stanley #62 ..
View Image
Hope this helps more than confuses. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek (able to avoid a BU verses BD debate since only info about BU planes was requested)
Edited 10/22/2008 2:15 am ET by derekcohen
Edited 10/22/2008 5:44 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,as an aside:
"By contrast, a BD plane does not care what angle you hone at. "
Actually it can do, which reminds me of an interesting incident way back when I worked for a furniture factory in Zimbabwe:
Certain "gentlemen cabinet making assemblers" were saying that their planes were not working nicely. (They were all issued with English Stanley #5's). When I looked at these planes I found that the blades were all honed at a very steep angle which allowed virtually no clearance-must have been 40 degrees plus.
"Moses, what angle are you honing at my man?"
"Eh, 30 degrees, seh"
They swore they were honing at 30 degreesas taught . Ofcourse they all honed free hand. So the solution was to make a few 30 60 90 triangles from masonite which could be used as a checking gauge....so that they could continue to hone free hand.Philip Marcou
Thank you for replying Derek. It was your reviews of the Veritas BU smoother that caused me to pause and rethink. I am not (at this point) the kind of guy thats going to have a cabinet full of planes. I need my planes to multi-task and so your argument for the low angle jack (of either brand) makes sense. I still think I like the Veritas a little better but I may get the Lie Nielsen simply because of the $100 I have to use at Garret Wade. I have emailed the folks at Garrett Wade to see if they are considering carrying Veritas planes in the near future but have not heard anything at this point. Thanks again Derek and thanks for all those other hand tool reviews. I have found them good reading as well as being very informative !J.
JoeOxfordCT,It is quite a time to buy planes. There is lots of good stuff out there that was not available a few years ago. The blade quality that comes with them has improved in the last couple of years I have noticed.I never appreciated the jack size plane bevel up or down until I bought all those other planes and used them. The jack size plane is a seriously good size if you are going to have one plane.Some thing I was going to remind you of and I forgot; you probably already know this but if not here goes. Woodcraft will let you try out a plane or two if you are trying to decide so you may want to take advantage of that as far as it goes (no Veritas at WC). They are good to buy planes from (after you use your gift card) 'cause if you have a problem they will trade planes or refund your money without hassle or shipping back to a mail order place and waiting for all that. I have had issues with at least two LN products and they took care of it quick and no guff. That is really worth supporting.Good luck and good planing with what ever you decide on.
roc
Edited 10/22/2008 10:13 pm by roc
I just ordered a Veritas Scraper plane for my problem Sapele and Panga-Panga wood!
May be here tomorrow! I hope!
I CAN use a Scraper! A plane I just ruin my wood!
>Veritas Scraper planeFun ! A very specialized tool. Mostly for finish planing veneers. Don't expect to take off any thickness with it. For thickness I recommend, as 9619 says, the LN BU and a wide sharpening angle. I think maybe others mentioned that also.I find my LN scraper plane does not stay sharp very long. Nice tool to look at though. I hope to do some veneer work in the future but it will probably be thick veneer like James Krenov so not sure I will even need it then.
I vastly prefer my LV scraper to the LN one I had, and sold. Also love my LV Bu smoother and while I'm at it, my LV medium shoulder plane. However I love the very small brass LN low angle block plane and prefer my LN #4 to veritas #4 by a country mile.
My 2 cents
Gary
>very small brass LN low angle block planeI always wondered about them. Seems to have quite a wide throat and no adj. Works well though? I never found a tight throat to be a big deal if blade sharpened properly. Though I chose the low angle block and regular block instead of the very small ones because of adjustable throat. So go figure.What specifically is better on Veritas scraper plane? Maybe I need another plane.
The small brass low angle B/U : Just sits so nicely in your pocket, comes to hand easily and then becomes like an extension of your hand. I use it constantly, all kinds of things from edges to checking lumber for figure, coopered doors...
The LV just is so much easier to tune up and get shavings. Struggled for hours with the LN.
The thinner blade on the LV also cambers and generally is easier to sharpen and position. Try one at a 'show', that's what sold me.
Hope this answers your questions.
Gary
Don't expect to take off any thickness with it.
I do not.
I mostly use hand scrapers. Sometimes I use planes but I'm not very good at it. Especially with the woods I normally use. I sort of create my own problems because I pick 'sticks' with 'grain'.. The more the better.
I find that I waste to much wood using planes. I'll go along fine for awhile and then tare-out... Yes, hand scrapers require ALOT of work, but I rarely have any problems when using my scrapers. I have stated before that I usually DO NOT put a 'hook' on my scrapers. I hone them at 90 or 45 degrees depending on how things go. Even without a hook the scrapers still require honing often. Especially on Jatoba and Purpleheart. Hickory is more forgiving on my scrapers.
I would expect the same problems using the Veritas Scraping Plane. Just that, I hope, less tired hands and 'hot' fingers. We will see...
In fact, about one hour ago FedX delivered my scraper plane. I humbled myself and also bought a Veritas Tri-Burnisher. I have to admit, after all these years, I never bought a good burnisher. Maybe I will prove to myself that a 'hook' is a better way to go.
I have not tried using it yet. Very unlike me, but I have decided to read the instructions that came with the plane first!
WillGeorge,Sounds like you are all setup for a great woodworking week end with your new tools. Have fun ! I gotta work on Saturday but I took off Thursday and went to a local woodworker's juried show ( I took off to vote early but then made a day of it). It was held in a nice old stone building that used to be the courthouse long ago; so nice day, nice location and nice woodwork to admire and learn from !
WG,
I coming late into this discussion, but do you have a proper burnisher? If not, drop me a line and I'll get you a nice shiny piece of highly polished carbide.
T.Z.
Does that work well? I have tried a few differnet ways on my Scraper plane and I have mixed results.
Doug M
It certainly helps! Are you using a piece of carbide and if so, how polished is it?
T.Z.
Thanks but I bought a Veritas Tri-Burnisher with my plane. See my other post.
Regards from Perth.. HI!
I just received my Veritas Scraping Plane AND I bought the Veritas Tri-Burnisher for 'hooking' the blade.
Comfortable using hand scrapers but not planes.
Any advice from your side of the pond before I mess up my new plane??
Hi Will
For my 2 cents a hook is definitely the way to go. I used my Stanley #112 (with LN blade) for years without a hook. I nearly sold it as it really created pathetic shavings and burnished the surface of the wood rather than planed it. It was just labourious.
With a hook the performance is outstanding.
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Which blade to use in the Veritas, thick or thin? I must admit never to have used this scraper plane. However I did do some experiments with my Stanley ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Thick%20verses%20thin%20112%20Scraper%20Plane%20blades.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Wow ! Thanks
roc
Thanks for the link. I have read before. I try to read your posts wherever I can find them.
I used my new Veritas scraping plane (I even put a hook on the blade). I only had the money for the plane and the Tri-Burnisher so I could not get the optional 0.125 thick blade.
First off, my techniques when using hand planes is, to say the least, bad to worse. So my following comments are based only on my limited planing skills. Did I just type skills?
My first reaction about the scraping plane (when trying to use it). Very aggressive. Way more aggressive than I thought it would be.
In your picture, you show 'the thinnest ribbons of wood that still can hold together'.
:>)
Well, I got nice shavings, but no ribbons. I could get ribbons on some old scrap Poplar I had but not when using my expensive wood. Have alot of extra Panga-Panga but very little extra Sapele. I have never used new Mahogany before. OK, so I have re-worked many very old doors made from it with my old Stanley/Bailey #4.
About the only plane I am comfortable with. I guess because I have used it ALOT?
When I tried my scraper plane on my Sapele I received curls about 1 inch long that were all rolled up. Not a bad thing, I think, but no ribbons. Maybe you are one of those guys with biceps that can push a Range Rover out of mud?
All my Sapele is quarter sawn and I would hate to mess it up. Very expensive wood here.. But my grandbabies are worth every penny!
YES, I have laminated the Quater sawn Sapele to flat sawn Panga-Panga. I do strange things.
Sorry for my BAD pictures. I have a good camera. I just do not know how to use it!
EDIT: After using the Scraper Plane. No finish.
Edited 10/26/2008 8:49 am by WillGeorge
Hi Will
That is beautiful wood. What is it? The finish looks good. You are doing something right!
Don't feel bad about the shavings from the Veritas. Sometimes it depends on the wood itself. The earlier picture was of Tasmanian Oak. Here is Jarrahoff the same blade. This is a short grained wood, and you can see the difference in the result ..
View Image
It does sound, however, that you are using too much cuvature on the thin blade if you are getting such an aggressive action from the Veritas.
Regards from Perth
Derek
That is beautiful wood. What is it? No hate here .. As 'I' recall I posted laminated Sapele an Panga-Panga!
So, I ordered the Veritas DX60 Block Plane a while back. Being a Toolmaker by trade I appreciated the excellent quality. Keeping in mind that, I placed an order with Lee Valley for a Bevel up Smoother plane with an A2 blade.
Shipping initially said August... oh well Covid and all that...
I was pleasantly surprised to find it on the doorstep yesterday!
what a beautiful tool!
I dont know if the photo does it justice but these are shavings from some walnut drawer fronts. Like tissue paper and an amazing finish to boot!
It took a quick 10 or 15 passes on the blade backside with a 5K grit waterstone and 1o quick whacks on the secondary bevel at 40 degrees.
I couldn't be more pleased!
Buy a LV BU Jack. I use a 38 degree blade (50 degrees total) for prep work, then quickly slap in a 50 degree (65 degree total with 3 degree microbevel) for all of my smoothing. You do not need an independent smoother for medium to large size pieces. I rarely if ever use my No. 4.
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