This is a post I posted on another question, but I thought it I would re-post it because it is–I believe–something many of us deal with in this business. So, give me your opinions. Maybe I’m wrong in my rantings. If so, I can accept that.
“I actually smiled when I read your post. This is really off topic of my original post, but you hit the nail right on the head. I usually do not work for GC’s. I either work directly with the homeowner with no subs or I am the GC. I do not have a problem with communication–without it the job turns horrid.
I agreed to do this big trim job because the GC was someone I knew years ago and just met again. Biggest problem on this job–no communication. Owner talks to GC alot, will not speak with me because I’m just a “sub”. Numerous changes have been made, and I find out about them after I begin whatever phase of the job. Aggravating.
Keeping everything professional is difficult in a situation like this. There are many aspects of how the GC handle this job that has lead to my decision not to work with him again.
When I GC a project, I work. I do the carpentry, finish, and anything else to make sure the job is done properly and professionally. The GC I am working with likes to “play the part”. Walk on the job with Northface jacket and shiny boots, look around, take a few calls, and leave. I don’t know how to get boots shiny–I thought mud was shiny.
Meanwhile, to keep him in his shiny boots, he hires horrible framers (Amish)–fast and cheap, who cares about plumb and level–he hires cheapest drywallers, then brings in a finish carpenter (me) and a painter to “fix” everything and make it look good.
I guess I’m just venting because I do not work like that, and it bothers me to be on a job with someone who does. Communication and respect go a long way. For a GC to brag about what “he” has done, he should respect the craftsman who are actually doing the job so he can say “he” did it.”
Replies
Sorry but I have to say that if you communicate with your customers like you write your posts then I can see where the trouble is. The GC is responsible to organize the job and if he can keep his boots clean in the process, make a profit, get repeat work and do a good job, more power to him.
I started with the tools, and then moved to management, then to ownership. By far the easiest job was with the tools, period. I had one of my tradesman, who was always gripping about “the suits” having it so easy take my place for a week, he left crying like a twelve year old girl and never again made those comments.
Your comments are not surprising. You, on the other hand, most likely treat everyone "under" you with the same disrespect that you have shown me.
Old man told me one time: "truth make you wanna fight", which is obviously true in this case.
I have no problems whatsoever with my customers. Maybe you do the way that you talk to folks. Or is that you just talk this way because this little blog allows you to.
Oh, and by the way, I can handle the both the tools and the GC at the same time. My money is as green as yours, too. I don't need shiny boots and sport coats to sell my craftsmanship, I let my tools and my hands do that.
You have a nice day and a nice life.
“So, give me your opinions. Maybe I'm wrong in my ranting. If so, I can accept that.”<!----><!----><!---->
Based on your request I gave you my opinion, sorry you didn’t like it, it’s obvious that you can’t take it and were only looking for someone to agree with you. Also give spell check a try.<!----><!---->
I spent my time with the tools, and then I grew my business. I made sure my employees (tradesmen of the highest caliber) were well taken care of and most stayed with me for a very long time. My activities allowed quite a number of them to retire very well off and they are still close friends today. Most of my customers were with me for over two decades and did millions of dollars of work with me, do yours stay with YOU that long, and do they spend that much money? How many people do you create jobs for? I was able to sell my business and retire at 47 years old, how about you, huh? Your attitude is full of contempt and your lack of understanding is demeaning to craftspeople.<!----><!---->
I speak to people the way they deserve to spoken too, period. And I do have a nice life, no make that a great life, thanks.<!----><!---->
You're so right. If I'm wrong, I can accept it. But to be personally attacked for relating a personal experience?? No, my friend you have the problem. You want to attack me and then come back with a some million dollar story. As I said, my money is the same color as yours.
And the spell check comment just shows how professional you are. One big difference here is I also live a great life, but it is because I love the trade more than I love the millions. I respect the people in the trade more than I would like to claim fame off of their backs. I can show what I created with my hands, not just claim it. Contempt?? Read your first post.
Are you working for my brother?
I live in Amish country ! And believe me, some of them are good and others have to count the little lines on a ruler. They are just like the Yanks.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
They are just like the Yanks. DAMN.. I'm a Yank! By the way.. What are all those short marks between the long marks on a ruler for?
Dad gum. You're a yankee? And I've always liked your posts.
Oh well. No one's perfect. I guess I can treat one more yankee with proper respect like I do with Norm! LOL
By the way, all those little marks are to confuse those who have never used a story pole.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Without the short ones, the long ones don't make any sense.
. . . - - - . . . Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I knew the "Amish" comment would get a comment. There are plenty of fine Amish craftsman. The majority--yes, majority--of Amish rough framers are just that: "fast and cheap".
Maybe you guys are the lucky ones, but I have had nothing but problems with Amish rough framing.
Winemane,
The Amish are no different then any other group of people. Among them there are some fine craftsman, some OK craftsman and, some really bad (so called) craftsman. I find it really funny that most people actually believe that being a member of a particular sect automatically makes you the best. I also find it very aggravating talking with a client and when the discussion turns to price, they throw out how the Amish do such good work, for less money, and how they are doing it without electricity. Bulls#$%! The Amish shops that I have seen are better equipped than most. They have the latest and greatest in machinery, yet the work output, with a few exceptions, is only average at best. This is not an attack on the sect, simply pointing out the fact that they do things just like we do and there are no Devine forces at work.
Bob, from Tupper Lake, NY, who has been to Amish shops in PA, and NY.
As you can see, I simply refer to Amish "rough framers". I am also speaking from my experience. I live out by Middlefield, Ohio. I deal with everything you said on a daying basis. I actually have a very good Amish friend who builds cabinets in his shop--a shop just like the one's you describe. When I go there at night and he pulls a propane tank over so we can have some light. I wave my arms around the shop and he just shrugs and laughs.
Unfortunately, my experience with their rough framing hasn't been good.
I live about three twps. away from Middlefield and I know some of those Amish, actually many. Other than not having Electric motors, tell me you wouldn't die to have a facility like Marsh Valley(Amish). Olin Yoder at K&D Hardwood is probably one of the nicest people you could ever meet. I've visited a few sites GC'd by Residence Artists who had Amish Subs on a Multimillion home in Avon Lake. The results were jaw dropping.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
What is interesting is that in a few posts back I said that I also have many friends who are Amish and who do extraordinary work--fantastic cabinetry.
My only complaint is about the many--not all--Amish framers, who are fast and cheap. I went into an addition in Auburn with an inspector one time after the homeowner fired the Amish crew and hired me to fix. The inspector's jaw dropped two steps into the place and immediately said it had to be ripped down. It was literally unfixable.
Another example is my current job on the westside (Edgewater). A pocket door 2 1/2" out of plumb, rough openings that are 1" out of level (where I had to chisel the header just to put in the door), a two story exterior wall so far out that they attempted to use a winch to pull it back in (couldn't)--the same exterior wall facing the lake and when it rained, water actually poured in--waterfall poured--above the siding glass door. Believe me I can go on.
I've spoke to many homeowners with Amish framed homes, who have nothing but problems.
On the other side of the coin, I worked in Hudson and saw the most beautiful custom kitchen I have ever seen, came right out of Middlefield. I have a good friend in Parkman who has an unbelievable shop and does great work.
As I am not disparaging an entire community because of some, I do not believe you can support an entire community because of some. Do you really think those advertised Amish heaters are built by hand in some barn with bow saws and wooden hand planes?
Yes, I would give anything for K&D's shop, but I really don't think that's the point.
I never--in my first post--called out an entire group of people, I merely stated a fact that the framers on my current job were horrid and were Amish. What I found so humorous was the way many read--and inserted implication--to my words and then personally attacked me. I do not mean you either. Thanks for trying to have a conversation.
Bob, Munson Twp.
Munson !! If you've been to Eagle America in Chardon (Woodworkers Outlet) We probably know each other. I just can't place a face to written print ;-) Looking forward to meeting you.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Remind me again: Why are we discussing general contractors on Knots?I have no Amish friends, have never met an Amish person and have nothing against them!Hastings
Yea, Eagle has recieved plenty of my money. Kind of like a kid in a candy store. Matter of fact, I do have to stop in this week to pick up some stuff. I only wish the store was bigger with more selection. Not complaining though. I would rather shop at Eagle and Carter than give my money to the Depot, which has the worst quality wood available--Oh no, another opinion to get personally attacked on. :)
Spinners has great coffee. E-mail me. I'll buy you a cup.
Spinners ?? All my life in Chardon and have never been there. I work 10-6 Tue. & Fri. this week.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Rod,
First of all I would say that your post probably should be over at breaktime, where there are plenty of other trim carpenters. There your "rant" would be more appreciated by others in the same line of work as you. I suspect there are few trim carpenters hanging out here at knots.
Secondly, this will probably flame you up but it seems as if the majority of the problem is because you are getting the "dirty work" and the GC is a Prima Donna who never lifts a finger. Problem is, you work for him. He can do as he pleases, he's paying your salary. Once you come to grips with that you should be just fine. If you want to be the boss and get dirty and help your subs or employees that's great. Sounds like your GC doesn't. So the way I see it, you can: quit now, finish the job and never so work for him again, or finish the work and next time raise your prices so that you feel better compensated.
You asked for input so there it was . (So, give me your opinions. Maybe I'm wrong in my rantings. If so, I can accept that.)
Good luck,
Lee
Thanks for your input. No problem with anything you said. Unfortunately, I did fall into a situation with a GC that is a Prima Donna. So be it.
You're right, I can quit now and walk away, but is that the right thing to do to the homeowner? Is it the right thing to do for your reputation? I can't walk away. Remember the guy that built 100 bridges and the very last one fell down? No one will talk about any other bridge.
Once again, it was merely a rant about being on both sides. It still amazes me the amount of anger and hostility I received for posting.
Thanks for your opinion. I do appreciate it.
Not exactly sure what you were looking for in your post. Sympathy? It's between shat and syphilis in the dictionary. Why should the owner talk to the subs? He's paying good money for a GC so he only has to deal with one person.
You have not learned to spell or shine your shoes or the value of a good jacket kept clean and you are looking for respect from a guy who just wants the job done with a minimum amount of demands on his time?
You don't even know what the proper course of action to take is in this situation and you want to be considered a professional?
You disparage an entire group of people (Amish) for the shoddy (in your opinion) work of some and expect us to believe you are a reasonable fair minded person?
You put this bilge forth and ask for input and are offended at the responses?
I think you will have to look elsewhere for your boo hoo chorus and lynch mob.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
You guys are a blast. Without a doubt, many of you have past any expectation I had for the hostility, insult, and disrespect launched my way.
It's been great fun. I've had more laughs than ya'll can ever imagine.
I think "ya'll" is spelled right, right?
That's "passed any expectations". <G>No malice intended.John
Edited 1/10/2009 8:34 pm ET by JohnCujie
Ain't gots times to spellt things write cause am busy shining my Read Wings and washing Karharts so's I can make millions lile the wrest of yous.
Alllready started cussin the wife out just to gets in praktise for those worthlass a## subs
Gonna make reel monies now witf them shined up Read Wings. Breeak there backs is what I's say. Millisoions, I tells ya, millions.
I usually try not to get tangled up in these types of discussions but you struck a nerve with me. Now that you've vented and gotten responses from several folks in here might I suggest that you go back to your original post and read it very carefully.
I think you described the problem best in your third paragraph, with further supporting comments in paragraphs 4 and 5. The rest is just pizzing in the GCs Wheaties.
Oh, and is there just a wee bit of jealousy involved here? Your friend the GC doesn't do the job the way you would do it? Are you absolutely sure your way is the only way to do it right? Is all this worth losing a friend?
Remember, communication and respect go both ways. The pecking order in any job I have ever been involved in was the customer registers their complaints with the GC, not the subs. And, subs are not second class citizens as the name might imply. The subs make the GC, not the other way around.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/10/2009 6:29 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Is all this worth losing a friend?
Very good point Bob.
Also not only does the GC get to deal with the complaints, he also deserves the kudos for a job well completed since he hired the subs.
If the job comes in on time and on budget and to specifications it really does not matter to the owner who did a crappy job and who had to fix it. What matters to him is he hired a GC who made it happen.
If the poster is going to hire out as a subcontractor I suggest he wear dark pants and pee in them regularly. Nobody will notice but it will give him a nice warm feeling.
If he wants all the credit and all the blame it's time to step up and be the GC.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I guess I'm just venting .. You bet and.. As it should be.
Keeps one from going off the deep end or self destruction.
Unless you had a 'contract for your work' I would have politely left the job and tell the GC and the client why I do so.
>>"....because I do not work like that, and it bothers me to be on a job with someone who does...."
Then don't work like that, and don't be on a job with others. Build the entire place yourself.
Start with the bare land that you bought with cash, since nobody is loaning on land these days.
Then do all of the planning and architecture by yourself, and submit the plans for permits. While you wait for the permits, do the time to get your electrical, plumbing, HVAC, and general's licenses.
Dig the foundation with that backhoe you rented, and finish the crete. Build the foundation walls and place the bolts. Build the platform and start the walls..............
A couple of years later, when you sell it, you might actually have a couple of thousand dollars above and beyond what you spent.
Oh, I forgot to mention that you'll need to start with enough money to live on while you're being the 'everything' guy.
Or, I guess it's possible that your mileage will vary.
Not a chance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Why do you want to start an argument with me. Why don't you stop giving your opinion over the internet.
See, I can do the same thing to you. And, unless, you are Al Gore, I thought the internet wasn't owned by one person.
Have a great day.
Please don't tell me you think Alice Goreplay invented the Internet. He only knows about it cause he tripped over it whilst turning on another lightbulb.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/11/2009 9:39 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Isn't Alfonso behind--no pun intended--the proposed "gas" tax on cows--no wait, then he would have to tax his own fata@#. Damn global warming.
Great now I have to find another hero. Billy Carter invented beer, right?
billy carter did not invent beer because he knew that would cause people to accuse him of working , he only taste tested on a very regular basis to wash down the peanuts his brother grew to feed him between testing brew !
Meanwhile, to keep him in his shiny boots, he hires horrible framers (Amish)--fast and cheap, who cares about plumb and level--he hires cheapest drywallers, then brings in a finish carpenter (me) and a painter to "fix" everything and make it look good.
Seems to me, fast and cheap is his method. As a serious question you should ask of yourself. Why did he hire me? You really are not a friend, just an aquaintance right, or have worked around each other. So ask yourself, does he consider you fast and cheap as well? I don't mean this in a mean spirit, sometimes you need to wonder why you were selected.
As a sub you need to be proactive in communication. Be the hammer not the nail. I make my construction documents with drawing after drawing, paperwork all over the place. Takes time, but when my guys hit the job it is clear. If a change is made, they have one freebie, after that I charge for it...
AZMO
Who wears Northface and dirty shoes.
-----------_o
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Good point. However, he did know me (not as a "friend"), and he knew exactly how I worked. He also does the majority of his work on the other side of the city--40-50 miles away. Our chance meeting at a window supplier led to this job. Also, when we spoke of the job, he said he needed someone who could handle it because he was worried that his normal guy couldn't. He knew I wasn't cheap and he knew I took my time to do it right.
He is also not a trained carpenter. You know as well as I do, you walk on a job and you can see the issues immediately. Someone else walks on the job and thinks it looks great because there is wood nailed together. I don't believe--my opinion--that he really takes the framing as seriously as he should. He wants to look nice at the end.
Being that 99% of my work is directly with the homeowner, I have tried, as always, to be proactive in communication. Some folks are just more difficult than others.
The changes were discussed this morning. The job will be done and done right. After that we'll go back to our respective worlds.
Thanks
Who shines work boots?
“Who shines work boots?” <!----><!----><!---->
Never in the military huh?<!----><!---->
Wook boots--Combat boots??? There is a BIG difference.
You're just not happy unless you are aggravating someone, are you?
You ever wear either?
Edited 1/13/2009 9:36 pm ET by rodnog
Lots of us, including Napie, have worn both and know full well the differences and the similarities. Some haven't and don't, but make a lot of noise nonetheless. Ain't it about time to stop grinding the axe and start hewing the wood? Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Apparently both times I told you that I spent a number of years working with the tools you conveniently overlooked that and passed judgment based on your preconceived notions. Yes I wore work boots and I still have plenty of them and Carhartts too, both being useful on my farm.
<!----><!----> <!---->
I also spent more than enough time getting shot at for my nation and let me tell you something combat boots <!----><!---->ARE<!----> work boots. So did you ever wear the uniform, or do you just complain?
You drew first blood, so don't cry now. Wore them and have learned that the only time you stop grinding the axe is when you bury it in your enemies chest.
Don't come at me about preconceived notions, read your first post. Don't you dare think you can attack me and I'm gonna back down. Think again.
Bring it on, your type doesn't even raise a sweat.
So, exactly who was shooting at you. Unless you lied on your little profile, you would have been enlisted in '79-'80. Did I miss something--who were we at war with?
I see your knowledge of history is right up there with your understanding of business. Do you remember a little thing in the Middle East that included the Beirut Marine Barracks bombing (October of 1983) and the previous and subsequent operations, most not well covered in the press? Not all conflicts are declared wars (none since WWII in fact) or publicized, but if you had stood up and raised your right hand and put on the uniform you might have known that.<!----><!----><!---->
If you are such a hard worker how is it that you find enough time to kill here? I’m done with you go troll someplace else for whatever sympathy you are looking for. Your inane ramblings have become a complete waste of time and a bore. <!----><!---->
The GC may be a trained carpenter, just trained to a different objective than you. Also, "carpentry" is a broad term and probably overused. I feel like I can relate to you a little as in I'm the guy with the higher-end carpentry skills (seems like that also makes me the slowest at what I do), yet I have come to appreciate what the real role of my boss the GC is--to bring everything together, be practical and keep a cool head and 'can do' attitude even when everything goes bad. He made me realize that I don't really want to be a contractor, or even a specialty contractor. I want to be a woodworker.Brian
No not really. My brother lives in Narvonne Pa. and his house was built by an Amish builder. Drove up to the jobsite in a horse and buggy, the whole 9 yds. Anyway the house is the biggest piece of crap you would ever want to see.
"Communication and respect go a long way."
You said it mate; they're your words. So live up to them, take the responses you got, and let's get on with what this site is about -- which isn't verbal fist fights.
And oh by the way, show a bit of respect for your fellow vets whether you like 'em or not. The ones who don't make a big deal about it are probably the ones who most deserve it.
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!
Don't sweat it. As long as you're getting paid appropriately and on time for the hours you put in, let the GC and the customer do it what ever way they like. It's no reflection on you.
Enjoy the fact that your responsibility ends with getting the trim done right and not having to deal with the customer hanging over your shoulder looking for some hand-holding. If the schedule goes south because of poor communication or bad planning, well, so be it. It's not your problem....as long as the cheques keep coming.
When you're hired to run the job, you get to do it your way. If you're not, you don't. If you can't be comfortable in the situation, move on. Life is too short to spend it bent out of shape about things you don't need to get bent about.
a GOOD crafts person can fix the mistakes of others, your attitude ,and your workmanship also has a lot to do with it , you were hired to finish up a job so that it looks great, both to the GC and the homeowner If you can not do the job to your best then don't do it
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