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Friends,
I think I do pretty good work for a hobbyist. I get a little frustrated though that I can’t ever seem to get things just right. Things are a little out of square or things don’t get cut to exactly the corect size. It is a little anoying. My family and friends don’t see the mistakes, but it annoys me a little. How does one go about getting more accurate with these sort of things?
Frank
Replies
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Study and practice. Precision metrology tools are essential. Without them you're guessing where the errors are.
There is still the "ghost-factor" but after 30 years there's less of it. Invented a double ended square that let's me measure from the left and right side and scribe a perfect line, that helped.
*Frank, I don't know how bad your 'mistakes' are if no body else notices them. I've been a carpenter for about twenty years and a woodworker for about five. As related to carpentry I had the same problem for about the first ten years, I always felt that things were not exactly perfect although no one else seemed to notice. It gradually grew on me that the work was acceptable and I've learned not to over- critique my work now, while realizing I can improve on it somehow on the next project, albeit in very minor or sutble ways. Nobody will notice the improvements either. I treat it as a continuous learning process. If it helps' I could go back to every project or house I've worked on and show you some mistake or goof that I hate but for some reason or another it's just me that can see it. Good luck, I think it's a matter of mind control to an extent(for me at least).By the way,I still butcher things up now and then. Even professionals as well as hobbyists do it. Learn by practicing your craft and the results will show.
*Frank, Ditto to George's statement. Just about everything I've ever built had some little mishap or miscut that no one else but me noticed. Funny, once I moved it out of my shop and into the house, or wherever it was going and installed it, I didn't notice it again either. I read something one time which I intend someday to rout into a board and hang in my shop: "The perfect is the enemy of the good." GP
*Frank, I often feel the same way and the little dings and mistakes that I can see, someone else calls it character. Funny that, I am now the customer on a piece of cabinetry that I couldn't finish, I purposely bought drawer pulls for the period piece and asked that they be stripped and left in their slightly bent and misshapen condition. The finisher told me beforehand that the walnut had some dings, grain oddities and such and he worked with me to keep them yet lessen any serious problems. My nine drawer apothecary cabinet hasn't looked this good since circa 1910. I only wish that I had gotten a digital camera for xmas so that I could post it here, hmm, maybe that leprechaun with cupid's bow/arrow I saw yesterday will help out? Keep on doing what you like best and it'll all turn out for the best I'm sure, be safe too. Good luck.
*This is an interesting question because I have felt that way also. And while I have found that most of the time people don't notice the mistakes, I would still like to improve my precision. Typically joints are my biggest source of error. I don't know if it's my tools or my technique.
*I found when I started woodworking that my pieces when done looked good to everyone but myself. When I looked at it and all I seen were the mistakes. Now when I look back I don't see those mistakes mostly because I forgot what I did wrong to begin with. Now a days my biggest problems are getting the time to do the work I want. The mistakes are usually fixed with no second thought give to the problem. The works keeps getting better and the mistakes keep getting less significant. Mostly do to the fact I know how to fix them without compromising the overall look I was going for.Scott
*Hi Frank,I think this is a really interesting question. First off I’d like to recommend a good little book called The Nature and Art of Workmanship by David Pye. Pye was a woodworker (he died a couple of year ago) and in his book he makes a distinction between what he calls “workmanship of risk” and “workmanship of certainty.” In workmanship of certainly you know what the final outcome will be before you start the operation – there is no risk. In workmanship of risk, you don’t know what the final artifact will be like until it’s complete – there is risk of failure right up to the end. Now both of these modes have more precise definitions in Pye. But the reason they’re interesting to your question is that it gives you a clear method of proceeding toward more precise work. In the most general terms, the way to get “more precise,” in your woodworking, is to move toward workmanship of certainty and away from workmanship of risk.Understand that it is not one or the other – risk or certainty – but a continuum from one to the other. To make matters even more complicated, most of us find even the idea of workmanship of certainty anathema to the practice of what we consider “fine woodworking.” The idea of CAD driven CNC routers cutting out parts that are “perfect” fills us with loathing. But that vision is on one far end. There are a lot of other steps along the way to take first that are much more palatable. For example adequate planning and correct sequencing are the first step toward more precise work. I found that my error rates went way down when I went to CAD drawing (this is the planning part). Not only did I never have to measure anything (the computer did that for me so I couldn’t make a mistake taking a measurement off a drawing), I found that if I made the parts exactly as the drawing told me to make them they would fit together properly. Suddenly the world really was Newtonian!Sequencing is also a very important part of making more precise work. A trivial example: it is more precise to cut all four legs to length (with a stop) at the same time than to cut one to length, change the set up on the saw to cut tapers, then change it back to cut the next leg to length. You may laugh at this example, but you’d be amazed at just how many of us make sequence errors. For example, I consider the little dings that parts and partly finished work get a sequence error. Throw a blanket over work when you’re not working on it. Don’t drop the work pieces. I have a student at the moment that is constantly dropping work and dinging it up because he doesn’t clear it off the bench when he’s done with an operation. The next operation knocks it off the bench because there is not enough room on the bench for both. This is a sequence error – when you’re finished with an operation, move the workpieces to safe place.Other things to consider are the ability to micro adjust (with paper shims or the commercial equivalent) your cuts mean that you can pull your joinery directly off the machinery and not have to tweak it by hand. This makes for much more exact and consistent results.I could give you a lot more examples, but all of them would point you toward “workmanship of certainty.” How you deal with giving up “workmanship of risk” is another issue. I have my own answer to that question: maintain the risk where it can be seen and appreciated, but make the hidden parts with as much certainty as I can bring to bear on the problem.Hope this helps.Regards,Kim Carleton GravesCarleton Woodworking
*Frank, et.al.I heard it said somewhere that the difference between a professional and an amateur was that the amateur showed you and told you about his mistakes where as the professional fixed them and kept his mouth shut.Brian
*Frank, concentration is my biggest headache. I measure twice and cut once but sometimes its on the wrong side of the line. Disruptions cause me to make more mistakes that anything else. When I figure out how to isolate myself from the rest of the world when I'm working I'll let you know but don't hold your breath waiting, its not gonna happen anytime soon.Acknowledging your mistakes is the first step in caring enough to learn from them.
*I saw a guy over in KY once that made exceptionally fine furniture and he only used hand tools - no power tools. All his joinery was with wood joints - no glue, screws, nails, etc. And, he was taking orders 2 years out at prices I couldn't afford. Very humbling to see his work (and frustrating). I decided then that I would be forever an amateur.
*I know this is hard to do sometimes but the best mistakes to learn form are the ones that other people make. They cost alot less and don't hurt nearly as much. But with that said look at what you are doing wrong. Ask yourself is this something that I do often. And try to change your work habits so to not make the mistake again.I used to be real bad for cutting boards on the wrong side of the line also but now I mark a small x on the waste side and it has cut down on the problem a lot.Scott
*Even more frustrating to me than knowing there's a flaw in a finished piece which I've tried with all my judgement and skill to create perfectly is to have someone not notice the piece at all!
*Frank,The use of precision tools has been a real benefit to my woodworking. I saw an ad in the paper for a tool and die maker that was retiring and selling his tools. These guys have more precision tools than anybody, and are usually very careful about keeping their tools in good shape. After all, they usually have to buy their own tools and new ones can be pretty expensive!Anyway, I bought a few basic tools--machinists square, precision right angle plates, 1-2-3 blocks, 45-45-90 steel triangle, a dial indicator, etc.Using these basic precision tools, I have been able to accurately tune my router table, table saw, etc. Mark Duginske's book on woodworking machine tools has been almost indispensible in this regard. I have also been able to confirm the accuracy of new machine set-ups and jigs. Sometimes it's as easy as just getting out the right angle plate in order to confirm that my miter saw will cut square and true.I also use a vernier caliper, which has helped with checking groove widths, tenon thicknesses, etc. Sometimes, once I align a fence or jig for a new operation, I'll send a piece of scrap through, and then make any necessary adjustments to the set-up in order to make sure the dimensions come out right. Only then will I actually start milling the "real" wood.As Kim mentioned, accuracy can be relative. It doesn't matter if you cut a table leg 1/8" too short, as long as ALL of the table legs are the same length! It also doesn't matter if a tenon is 3/64" too wide, as long as the mortise is too! Sequencing (i.e. performing the same operation on all similar parts, using the same set up at one time) is the key.However, for some joints, miters especially, accuracy is important and machinists tools have helped me achieve it.
*OK, what is a 1-2-3 block??? I've seen them in my machinist tool catalogs and often wondered what they were used for.
*Frank, let me chip in with this observation: Measure to the object itself whenever possible and avoid transfers on a rule or square. Example: When I need to cut a drawer guide to length I take a longer piece than I know I will need and mark its length while holding it in place from the back of the case. Simple example, but you get the idea. If you are prone to distraction (and who isn't) using a ruler merely introduces one more chance for error. You can use this method with ANY piece that can be referenced against an existing one. I've gone so far as to take a cabinet side or table leg and stand it up on the spot in the home where it is going to reside before cutting it. You can't get any more "to the bone" than that. Also, consider using a scribing knife or scratch awl when marking lines. A pencil line is ALWAYS wider, no matter how fine a point you put on it. Don't be shy about writing notes to yourself on the face of the work. I do this all the time, like: "hide knot" or "cut this direction". Sneak up on all of your crucial cuts (and which ones AREN'T crucial?) So you have to go back to your chopsaw five times to get the fit you want? Do it. Don't think I'm being catty here, but how old are you glasses, (if you wear them)? Are they your old prescription that you only use in the shop? Doesn't your work deserve better? If they are your good ones, keep them clean of sawdust. How's your lighting? FWW has a good article of shop illumination this month. Check it out.Lastly, if you feel that you are getting distracted, the problem is more systemic, and needs more consideration than we can give it here. Generally, I find that fatigue is the most distracting thing of all. We all want to get "in the zone" when we are working, but sometimes it just won't come. Some days every cut you make is wrong and other days they can't land a glove on you. All I can say is know one from the other and, if you are not on a deadline, walk away. After all, goofs are not seerious, injury is.
*A 1-2-3 block is a precisely milled hunk of tool steel measuring 1" x 2" x 3". It has threaded and unthreaded holes for assembly into various configurations. These blocks are generally for use in tight tolerance metalwork. They can be adapted to some woodworking tasks, though they are by no means essential. They cost between $20 and somewhere North of $200 depending on country of origin and accuracy. Even the $20 ones are good to .0001" or so.Good accuracy tips so far. One more: sequence the cuts that create a single complex piece of wood to preserve registration faces as long as possible. Example: cut the mortise and tenon before curving the leg and apron. That way you'll have good orthogonal references for layout and guiding the work.Design affects accuracy too. Folks who design their own pieces have the luxury of choosing detailing that is within their capability. Picture frames are a common example for me, and a quicky project that comes up from time to time around the house. I find that I get best results by chopping the miters, gluing up the corners, cutting cross-miter slots through the cured joint at the table saw, gluing in the cross-miter splines, and planing everything to meet nicely. This yields an attractive joint that requires little precision during construction but can be made to look accurate later on.I'm also a fan of open mortise joints for similar reasons - easy to machine, very strong, and IMHO attractive. Forget smoking square chisel mortisers, screaming routers, and pricey boring machines. Many open mortises, or at least those at "L" joints, can be cut accurately and quickly with a 8" dado set and tenoning jig at the table saw.
*Friends,Thank you for many good suggestions.Once the peice is finished most of the mistakes don't show. I think the precision problems have most to do with my set up, so I need to look at the process I am using to do that. Lots of good ideas.ThanksFrank
*one thing that helps me out a lot is math. basic geometry and trig are very helpful when your building furniture. this will get rid of stupid measuring errors.(provided you don't make stupid math errors) machinists tools help out a lot. they help with setups and will bring a lot more precision to your work. auto cad would also help. i'm terrible with it right, but i'm teaching myself how to use the software so it will make my life easier in the future. hope this helps
*I would like to make two comments about this discussion.Today I found a carpenter's square that was not 90 degrees. I have had that thing for a long time, but no more. So, make sure your measuring tools are accurate.Secondly, I used to make planters for silk tree displays. My customers would say, "Make me a perfect one". My stock answer was "If I ever make a perfect one, I'll quit making them because I'll never be able to top it"
*Guys,Woodworking is as much an art as precision. If it were that we could make it perfect, and it were easy, it would not be fun. I am a very left brained person and woodworking gives me a sense of loss of control. It lets me use the right part without consequence.Frank,Relax and don't sweat the little things. This is supposed to be fun!TDF
*I think most of the time for me its patience/lazyness. I sometimes dont take the time to measure it one more time or double check the set up or do the math again if I think there might be a error. It also in the set up. Much like Kim touched on. What I call thinking ahead. Knowing whats gonna happen down the line in a set or two or three and planning for it when im make my initial cuts prepping for ythe next step or two.
*A few years back, before I got to where I could work Indoors all the time, Igot a job building a large complicated deck for a lady who got tired of waiting for her architect son to get it done for her. I really sweated over some of (at that time) inevitable flaws that crept in. Later when I was back for some more work, she confided to me that her son had realy tried to find flaws in my deck but couldn't. I began to realize that in spite of some errors, the total effect is what counts.Several of the previous threads have pretty well covered it. Do the best you can & strive for better. We all make mistakes but we constantly strive to make them smaller & less frequently. The worse thing you can do is get so hung up on your mistakes that you become afraid to try. Attitude is everything.Paul
*wood moves, it reacts to weather, humidity and the sign of the zodiac for all I know. It shrinks swells and wiggles about like a dancer! I carefully preassembled some roof rafters last week on my timberframe. carefully marked them and set them outside in the pile. (they're too big to to store indoors) This weekend I went to do finale assembly before I swung them into place. Nothing , and I mean nothing fit! The worst case was a 6x12 piece of white oak that moved over 2 inches over 20 ft. I mean it's not a piece of 3/4 inch pine that will respond to a little pressure, some profanity and maybe a beating. It's a 12 inch thick piece of oak for cripes sake! I haven't figured out how to beat something like that into submission.
*Mike: A 1-2-3 block is.as the name implies.a steel block ground square on all edges and to the exact diminsions indicated.The purchased ones will have also been lapped to precise dimensional tolerances.after grinding.I have a set of four. they are useful stacked together for all sorts of layout or spacer applications.When the reference called for includes a less than 1"segment viz.(2.5692),the machinist or jig builder will suppliment these with a set of ground and lapped gage blocks for the odd diminsion.Now,if he is dealing with precise angles,he will probably get out his sine block. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
*Last night I looked down at my tri-square. It is about 12 years old now and sure looks it. Maybe a good place to start would be to replace it with one of those high end squares out of Garret- Wade. You get attached to these things and hate to replace them.... Then again, there was that shed I built with Grandad's old level. The shed is more then a hair off, and so was his level which I have replaced.It looks good on the wall though.I put a scratch awl in my belt pouch and deep sixed the pencil.Little things like this, will make a difference I think.Frank
*Frank,A few ideas that have helped me find some degree of consistency and along the way a modicum of accuracy.Sketch/Notebook for ideas, setups, jigs, time, everything relevant to project, keep it on the bench though, its too easy to forget to write things down later. I am always refering to mine now when someone sez "can you make me one of those"Draw your own plans or redraw others, so you start to build the piece in your minds eye, this makes me look ahead at sequence, operations, possible problems etc. Draw a flow chart, I have found even simple projects benefit, it really helps you keep track of materials, operations and reduces frustration,(like having to change set-ups because you forgot one operation on one piece 2 steps ago).Story Sticks/Poles have improved my acurracy 10 fold, make mutiples a joy and are always there for the next time.Pick one system for reference marks and layouts and stick to it, make your marks consistently, then you don't have to puzzle over the funny squiggles on 2 edges.Post-it sticky labels so I don't have to mark on the stock until I'me satisfied with selection or layout. Last but not least,( I can hear the uproar already) when I started working in metric I found I made fewer mistakes, I like working with pure numbers, gets rid of those fracin friggtions.so long from the Kootenays, gtw
*i "I can hear the uproar already" Not from me gt. Been working in metric for years. I know exactly what you mean. I've only met one person that I can remember that could work truly competently in fractions, and my basic arithmetic is nothing to shout about either. ;-) Slainte, RJ.
*While there is no substitute for accurate measuring devices, etc. I find that making something simple helps me hone my skills immensely. Something as simple as a bird house can be made with complex joinery and finsihing techniques. Even figuring out the dimensions can be a real learning experience. I've used dovetail joints, half laps, blind and through dados and even mortise and tennons. My latest was to create one that used no glue or nails. It had to have a top that could be removed for cleaning yet support the hung weight of the house. I gave it away yesterday and I know the person I gave it to was not aware of the craftsmanship that was involved in making it. I use precise measuring devices but I learned a long time ago that I never trust any tool that I have not personaly checked for accuracy.
*GTW,Good points.I don't know if I am smart enough to figure out story poles though.I have been using a metric tape- much better than trying to figure out say 1/ 3 of 15 17/18 inch. Needto buy a fancy tri square as I think the old one is a tad bungered up.Frank
*Frank, i just started reading the 3rd edition of the technology of machine tools, by mcgraw hill ryerson. it's got everything you could want to know about precision setups and more, and while it is intended for machinists, i think that it's worthwhile reading material, and there's lots of other interesting material in there too.
*Frank, I believe in story poles or something other than measuring.. It's too easy to make a small mistake that compounds itself with a tape measure/ ruler/scale etc. If you understand paralax error you'd never transfer a measurement again. Here's a simple example Take a good scale/tape and looking at it from the right carefully mark the start and finish of a staraight line exactly 3 and 23/64ths inches long. Now do it looking at it overhead. It will have moved and your line may no longer be that size. if you make a story pole (any scrap of wood that is a least as long as you need to measure) make your marks on it and you can transfer that size anyplace quickly. I get shivers anytime someone talks about machine precision on the subject of wood. How do you deal with the changes that weather forces woood to undergo? If for example you measure something that is exactly 3. 375 inches long on a dry day and the next day is humid , you can bet your bippy that it won't measure 3.375 So if you take several weather periods ( notice I didn't say days) to build something are you constantly doing the math to make allowances for weather factors? The beauty of the story pole is that the weather will affect it the same as the workpiece (assuming it's made of wood that changes the same as the wood used)
*I don't know if this suggestion (?) is out of order or not.I'm a hobbyist woodworker who makes the occasional piece of hardwood furniture. I make violins too; not many, just have been interested in it for a bit over 40 years.Well, I always used the English measurement system, that is, inches and feet, to measure stuff when doing hobbyist woodworking.When I began work in a Master violinmaker's teaching shop, only the Metric Measuring System was used. So I had to learn that approach.So here's the denoument: The Metric measuring system is FAR SUPERIOR to the English system which we are all accustomed to here in the USA.So give it a try; helps reduce measuring errors. Much easier to deal with mentally.Use a metric caliper to measure small stuff; thicknesses, widths, etc. Get hold of a good quality steel metric rule in several lengths.Does it eliminate the maker making errors? Of course not.Measure thrice, cut once is still a rule to practice every time.(I said "thrice!")William
*Frank,This is a great discussion subject. I wouldn't mind hearing of some examples of problems you've had so people could respond with suggestions.Here's 2 of my examples:Recently I was adding molding around the four sides of a square leg (x four legs) and I was frustrated at cutting each piece to length to match up with the adjoining piece. I went thru numerous trial and errors using pencils and a exacto knife to mark my cuts. Needless to say I have a few joints to fill before finishing. Any ideas to increase accuracy on this task?Here's another one. I don't always have sufficient scrap to create a story board or it's a one off piece and a stop block doesn't always seem to make sense for use with my mitre saw. In this situation, how can I increase the accuracy of lining up my saw blade with my scribe line?
*Frank,I'm what I'd call an advanced beginner, so take my suggestions for what they are worth. Most of my mistakes seem to come from measuring errors and sloppy tool setup. I have made some improvements in this area by getting the following:36" hook rule - always measures from the board edge,not some fuzzy alignment you think you have dead on."Incra" rulers - marks up to 1/64" dead accurate6" engineers square- good for machine setups also42" straightedgeWoodhaven Deluxe miter guide w/ adjustable stops-This is an order of magnitude more accurate than the OEM miter guide that came with my saw. Incra makes a nice one too. The point is to have something with adjustable stops that allows repeatable accuracy.Zero clearance blade insert - shows you exactly where the cutting line will beShop built crosscut-box - dittoI also make it a point to think through the operations so that I complete all of a certain parts run before starting the next. You only have to get one thing right for all parts subject to that operation to be identical. Check out Mark Duginske's "Mastering Woodworking Machines". It has great info on setting up machines and jigs for accuracy. It really does make a huge difference. Good luck.
*Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but one of the simplest ways to make a mistake is to use different measuring devices on the same project. In other words, "don't change horses in the middle of the stream". If the measuring device of preference is off a little, at least it will be consistent throughout the project.Just a thought.Steve
*From what I recall, traditional Japanese temple builders intentionally included a mistake only they would recognize. This was done so not to pretend to be as perfect as the gods. Why not couch your "mistakes" there!Best,Seth
*Seth. I don`t have to make errors on purpose. It just seems to happen automaticly.And as I seldom know just exxaacctklly whut i`m doin.It shows up as part of an original design.¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
*It has already been mentioned by someone else but I'll repeat it; most of my mistakes come from impatience. I've reduced the number of mistakes I make by forcing myself to walk away for 5 min. when I start feeling the urge to just get it done. One other thing I've noticed - I wouldn't receive a lot of the compliments I get (not there there are lots of compliments) for things I've made in my home but for a creatively fixed mistake that makes the item look tons better than when I first designed it. Go figure.Tris
*I've been in this trade for years...Run one of the shops for that big museum in Washington D.C. (each museum has their own shop) Do 3 or 4 period pieces a year "on the side." I've worked with guys who are "technically" superior to me in many respects. I am more of a designer than a craftsman, although there a'int much that I can't build. I've found that the easiest way to get better is to build more. Follow some of the advise given here...work carefully...build challenging pieces and your work will improve. Two other points (of many that I would like to give)...Photos of work, often (but not always...I am not trying to offend) look better than the real thing. (Although good design will always stand out) Also, I can play the hell out of rock and roll guitar, but will never come close to Clapton or the other "masters." Was'nt born to do it...Was born to be a cabinetmaker...FWIW....
*Jimmy,I think there is alot of truth in your post. The more I am in the shop the better I do. When I can't get in there for weeks at a time,things don't go as well.Frank
*I worked in a cardiac catheter lab for sometime. The best adivise I have heard in a long time was a Doctor remarking the enemy of damn good was just a little bit better.Jerry
*Being retired, I'm finding that the extra time I have is allowing me to redo work till I'm satisfied. When pressed for time, one tends to comprimize. And, by re-doing, you tend to get better.Also, having a small shop forces me to finish one project before starting another. I have found that coming back to an old project is not allways good.I think a combination of all the above allows one to do more precise work. I think it's as much the person as it is the tools.
*i "The difference between a good woodworker and a great one is how well they hide their mistakes!"lomax
*Lomax, Dang! You beat me to it, I don't consider myself great at woodworking but I do think I have become pretty good at hiding my mistakes.
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