I just put the final coat of stain on my Misson sofa table, and found a blemish that had to be sanded out :-(.
No big deal really, had it fixed in a few hours but in the process, I had to wipe down with some paint thinner – it made the dark/light contrast of the oak just “pop” off the wood. It looked great.
Now what’s the best way to get that “pop” permanent.
It’s white oak, dyed with a transtint then stained with Bartleys gel stain.
I’m thinking of a danish oil or a tung oil. Any advice? I’ve used wax on the smaller piece but it didn’t give the spark I’m looking for. (it could be the wax I’m using…)
Thanks,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Replies
Hi Mark,
What colors are you using for the dye and stain? Lighter/brighter shades of dye will give you that "pop" you're looking for. Darker shades not as much.
Instead of the danish or tung oil, I'd go with a film forming finish (e.g., varnish/poly, shellac, or lacquer). The film will add depth to the finish and bring out the shimmer the dye creates. Not to mention, the stain will essentially seal the wood and tung oil and danish oil are penetrating finishes that are best used on bare wood.
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Paul,
Dark Mission Brown Dye
Jet Mahogony StainThe contrast is nice, but when I wipe on a little paint thinner - Bam! Ok so not danish/tongue oil...I've never used shellac. I could spray lacquer from a can (don't have spray equipment)
or poly with a brush - but I'm concerned that poly will give me that plastic look...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Hi Mark,Do a sample using the same dye and stain. Then use spray can shellac or lacquer over it. Three even coats, not too thick, should look very nice. Sand very lightly between coats with 320 grit as needed to knock down any dust nibs. If you're able, do a sample with some spray can poly as well. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the appearance of a properly applied polyurethane finish (and it's a lot more durable). Spray in a well ventilated space, but not in direct sunlight.If you have any brighter dyes, like Golden Brown, Reddish Brown, Dark Vintage Maple, Red Mahogany, Yellow, Bright Red, or Orange, try a sample with each of them under the stain and see what you think.Before committing to a finish on the sofa table, do as large a sample as you can just to see it on a lrage surface and make sure you like it. The underside of the table top is a good place for a final sample.Paul S
Website
Too late on the sofa table stain. Already done.However I did a practice piece and liked what a saw, I was just so surprised the way the wood popped with the mineral spirits, I decided to finsh the table differently. (and to think I never would have known if I hadn't had to sand out a tool mark from the stained surface)...Sometimes they are accidents other times happy accidents.I did prep some sample wood and I'll try the spray laq and a hand rubbed poly and spray poly the samples...Thanks for your insights. FYI I like your web site.
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I really hate to disagree with Paul Snyder, since he is one of the real finish experts around here. But I must say I am mystified by his advice to use a film finish (instead of an oil) to pop the grain. And I would say your experience with wiping the surface with mineral spirits disproved his point. If my objective is to accentuate the grain, say with something like QSWO, I would take either Watco (or BLO) or a tung oil, and dilute it way down with mineral spirits -- about 1 to 4 parts. I wipe on one or two coats of this concoction -- and then either move to a film finish or mix up a more convention wipe-on finish. As for stains, if the project is relatively small scale (like an end table), my first choice (for grain popping) would be what's called a NGR stain (non-grain raising). This is widely used in the furniture industry, where it is sprayed, but you can use it as a wipe-on if you project is not too large scale, and you can work quickly. The most readily available NGR stains are produced by Behlen (called Solar Lux) and are available through Woodcraft. I hope Paul will come back to explain his reasoning behind avoiding oils to pop the grain.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Nikkiwood,
Actually now that you mention it, I'm puzzled too... About two months ago, I finished the bow case and did the BLO then the urethane to pop the grain....FYI, I'm going to resand the top of my table. :-(I repaired the one tool mark and couldn't get the color to match so that end of the table is slightly lighter than the rest of the top (about 1 foot of the six feet).Also, after applying the stain, I saw all sorts of other planer marks that I thought I had sanded out - I can't live with them - so I've got to get out the 60grit and the ROS - bring everything down to bare wood and start over... (actually just the table top, not the legs or aprons)... Should take about 2 hours of rework... I'm posting a related question about planer marks ....Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Paul's point is probably that it's the amber color from the linseed oil that "pops" the grain. It makes little difference if the amber color comes from pure boiled linseed oil or the linseed oil used to make many varnishes.
Here is something to try. Wipe on a couple of coats of BLO wiping it dry between coats. Now coat the surface with a waterborne finish (so no more amber is imparted by the film finish). On the other side of the board, just apply two coats of a linseed oil based varnish or poly varnish. Chances are that you will not be able to see much or any difference.
You can avoid the BLO step by using a phenolic resin based tung oil varnish like Waterlox Original. BLO is redundant with this finish for most woods.
Howie.........
I completely agree with Howie - use Waterlox instead of BLO. It's as easy to use as oil, but it builds faster and gives a better, longer-lasting finish. To really preserve that "wet look" though, you have to build a film finish (multiple coats of Waterlox, or just use a regular varnish, or shellac, or lacquer)."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I guess you're not going to let me get away with a "hit & run" post. ;)
It's not that I think that oils don't have a place in popping the figure, rather I believe you need a film forming finish to get the full effect. I also believe that you can get more "pop" by using a dye than an oil. I'll explain my thinking... This may be a little long. :(
I'll start by referring to David Sorg's article, "Varnishing Secrets," in the February 2004 issue. The first line reads, "To bring out the full color, depth, and figure in wood, a finish must be as clear and level as possible." David achieves this with an oil-base varnish (a film forming finish) and the pictures show the results (outstanding).
In my mind, and to my eye, a film forming finish acts like a "lens" on the wood. And it doesn't have to be thick! A french polish finish is VERY thin, but the color, depth, and figure are all featured wonderfully. The same benefits can be realized by using other film forming finishes, including lacquer, shellac, some water-base finishes, and varnishes (including a quality polyurethane). It's the 'lens' that produces the look of depth. Some specialty finishes are referred to as "3D." That's because the film is thicker than normal but very clear and polished. It creates a 3-dimensional look that gives it the name. The lens is thicker and the effect is greater.
On to the point... Take a look at this sample board;
View Image
Click picture for larger view
This curly maple sample has linseed oil on the left, nothing in the middle, and dye on the right. A few coats of lacquer cover the entire piece. Which section has the greatest amount of shimmer (pop)? To me, all three sections have great shimmer. But the added color of the linseed oil on the left and the dye on the right produce more contrast which heightens the effect. Does the oil pop the figure better than the rest? ...not in my opinion. Oil, or an oil-base product is not necessarily the key to popping the figure in wood. Dyes do an equally good job, and have an infinite color range.
Here's another example. I took a piece of birch ply scrap and divided it into 8 squares, each about 7" x 7". In each square, I started with a different first step. Here's the products I used;
View Image
Here's a list of what was applied to each square (in no certain order);
<!---->Lacquer only
A dilute dye - close to linseed oil
Linseed oil
Watco natural danish oil
Benjamin Moore poly
Minwax poly
Waterlox original
Blond dewaxed shellac>
And here's the test panel;
View Image
I applied one coat of each of the products, and then sprayed lacquer over everything. The sun wasn't out today, so the shimmer effect isn't that great, but they all have it. Can you tell which product was used on the bare wood? If I didn't label it, I wouldn't know myself. They all look great! The oils with the most color (linseed, danish, and Waterlox) are slightly darker and the contrast makes a slight difference/improvement. By using dye, I could increase the contrast and the overall effect even more!
There are other ways to improve the contrast, and increase the look of depth and shimmer, but the finish that Mark used - dye, seal, glaze - followed by a film forming finish is one of my favorites for wood like quartersawn oak.
Well, that's my thinking on the subject! And it's just my opinion so always do a sample, the larger the better, before committing to a finish on an actual project!<!---->Paul S
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Edited 6/29/2005 9:22 pm ET by Paul Snyder
Paul
Thanks. Great post.Ok now I'm more confused :-)I'm on a b-trip now. When I get home, I'll finish finishing and I'll post pictures.FYI the technique I used for the dye/stain combo came from a Jeff Jewitt article.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Thanks Mark. Jeff has a couple good articles on Mission and Arts & Crafts finishes on oak. One of them is in the archives here at FWW.Look forward to seing the completed project!
Paul S
Website
A belated thanks for taking the time to sort all this out. I don't think we are really on different pages when it comes to this issue. I certainly agree that a film finish of one sort or another does act as a kind of "lens" to accentuate the grain -- and the BM poly you displayed is the one I have used since forever. But, if you are not staining the wood, I still like the idea of wiping on a dilute coat of some sort of oil, followed by a film finish. Do you disagree with that? -- or do you have some more effective approach you could recommend?I am also curious to have your opinion on Minwax stains -- since my understanding is they contain dye as well as the regular ingredients in a penetrating oil stain. I like them because they are pretty much "idiot proof", and they are easily repeatable -- which is an important feature for me. On occasion, I have used them without mixing -- assuming the liquid at the top of the can is the dye/oil part of the stain (with the pigments still at the bottom of the can.)Thanks again for your advice. ********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
What you see is obviously light reflected from the wood. A rough surface has mostly diffuse reflectance. You see the surface qualities more than what is underneath. Finely scratched glass appears white and opaque. Its only clear when polished. Wood can't be polished like glass or metal since it has pores and grain. To get beyond a certain point, some type of film or oil is essential to fill the pores and grain; let light into the fine structure of the wood. Shellac and varnishes don't penetrate as deeply as oil. If I want to see the wood, I always put on oil first. First polish the wood as finely as you have patience and time. Sanding scratches will fill, but it looks better without them. But, scratches and grain are what holds pigments. Wipe a pigment onto glass and it wipes right off. The density and size of sanding scratches is important for very hard and smooth woods like maple. Sand too finely and and stains won't work. Dyes or chemical treatments will still work. This is one reason why most all commercial stains have both a pigment and a dye combined. Dyes can accentuate the grain or hide it. Depends on the wood and the dye and how it is absorbed and applied. Pigments accentuate the pores because that's where they stick.
Then the film coating. Coatings have a refractive index. The higher the index, the more light is reflected from the surface without penetrating. (Fresnel's Law for the physics weenies). Looks more glossy, but at the expense of seeing less of the wood. Also appears totally reflective at a higher angle. A smaller range of angles where you can see through the coating. Low index coatings look more natural. High index coatings appear thicker. Acrylics and lacquers are usually the lowest. Then shellac, then oil varnishes. Although, that isn't a hard and fast rule. Depends on the brand, etc.
So, what's best? Got no answer. Depends. What do I like reasonably well at this instant? Can answer that. Sand. Polish, really. 800 or better at a slight angle to the grain. Exactly with the grain just pushes the fibers back in place. For open pore woods, fill first. Dye lightly with water-soluble dye. Sand again. Waterlox or BLO wiped on and dried fully. Wash coat of dewaxed shellac. Topcoat with an alkyd varnish. I like a varnish hard enough to rub out. I like the look of shellac but it isn't as durable. Your mileage may vary.
thanks for your response. What do you know about the Minwax stains -- is it true they have a higher concentration of dyes than other pigmented oil stains?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Minwax stains are OK if you need something from a can. Comparable with other stains in cans. I've used them before. I don't use them often because I think they look muddy. Probably they have around the same amount of dye as other brands. Not so much tar maybe. Some brands like Watco have a lot of tar in them. Oil-soluble dyes are handy sometimes. Can be slower drying with the right solvent, like kerosene. You can buy the powdered dye easily enough. I have some around, mostly for tinting lacquer but it can be handy sometimes. I keep some of all three around. Water, alcohol and oil soluble. Water is what I use the most. If you want it even, wet the wood first then flood it with dye. A light shade. More coats if you want it darker. If you want to pop the grain as much as possible, put it on with the wood dry. Harder to control without blotches and lines unless you spray it.
I agree. Absent a dye or stain, a lot of woods really benefit from a coat of an oil or oil-base finish prior to topcoating with shellac or lacquer. As long as the yellow color of the oil works with the wood, it's a good approach. If you're using an oil-base finish (e.g., varnish/poly) on the bare wood and the finish has good coloring, then the coat of oil before the varnish isn't necessary (IMO); the varnish will do the work all by itself.
Chris Minicks article on oils and oil-base finishes in the current issue has a picture that shows the color of a variety of products. Boiled linseed oil (BLO) falls in the middle. I've used Watco to pop the figure, and although it's lighter than BLO, it works well also. Usually, I use Waterlox original sealer/finish because it has good color and dries in a day.
Cherry is one wood that really pops with a coat of oil. Here's a sample with an oil-base product on half and lacquer on the entire piece;
View Image
One recent customer had some speakers and display cabinets done in cherry and wanted an "oil" finish. I did a sample with a hand rubbed danish oil and one with Waterlox followed by lacquer. He liked the oil/lacquer combination the best because of the look of depth. Some of the speakers were HUGE. They came from a stadium and we veneered them with cherry and then painted the inside of the horn. Here's how two of them looked as the lacquer was drying;
View Image
The biggest problem I have with Minwax stains is their slow dry time, but they do a good job for the most part. They also change color if you spray them (spray & wipe). I think they must have changed the formulation in the last few years because they don't seem to work as well as they used to. I'd definately recommend you try some other brands. Try some of the paint store brands (e.g., Benjamin Moore, Sherwin Williams) for comparison and if you can find Behlen stains give them a try as well. I like different colors from different brands - Behlen for example has a couple "Mahogany" colors that work really well compared to other brands I've tried.
It seems like all the brands have colors that are a combination of dyes and pigments. One "weakness" of these is that oil-base dyes aren't very lightfast compared to others dyes (e.g., metallized acid dyes).Paul S
Website
Paul, I've posted the final product in the gallery. Thanks for your assistance. You'll see in the pics that the "rays" pop nicely in the white oak... I'm very happy with the piece.
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Glad to help Mark! I'm off to the Gallery...Happy 4TH!Paul S
Website
I'm sorry I let so much time pass before responding to your post; even though I'm late, I want you to know I appreciate your effort. I am a little defensive about using the Minwax stains. Years ago, I started using them when I was doing a lot of refinishing work on doors/casings for old houses -- many of which were QSWO. I liked the Minwax because it was dead simple, repeatable, and produced a good result. I have used it on furniture/cabinet projects, but clients do seem to be impressed if you use stuff they are unfamiliar with (like dyes, glazes, etc.) and can't buy at Home Depot. Anyway, thanks for your comments. When you speak, I always listen.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
"When you speak, I always listen."
I should be selling stocks & bonds! LOL
If only I had a clue!
Have a good one...
Paul S
Website
Well, the pay's a whole lot better -- and probably the hours too..................********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Wetting the wood with a solvent does tell you a lot about what you can get from it when you apply the finish Mark. Nothing quite matches the look of the wood when it's actually wet, but the right finish comes close.I totally lost track of the fact you had already dyed and stained the table! Oh well, you can try some colors samples next time if you want to.I'm working on some material for the website and will load it as soon as I get it ready (someday!). I'm glad you like it (so far)!Paul S
Website
Wetting the wood with a solvent does tell you a lot about what you can get from it when you apply the finish UNTILL ya try to finish it!
I just had to..
I hear ya! (LOL)
Paul S
Website
By wiping it down with mineral spirits you effectively previewed how the surface will look if you put on an oil based finish. It can be either an oil/varnish like Watco or Minwax Tung Oil Finish or it can be a film finish like varnish. It's the oil in these finishes that "pops" the grain and give the illusion of depth.
I suggest you do what most pro finishers do and test your finish on a sample made from the scrap of your project. Sand the scrap just as you did the project and then stain it. Now test a couple of finishes to see which one you like. Try the oil/varnish and try a wipe-on varnish like Minwax Wipe-on. One of the two should give you what you want.
Stain kills that pop your looking for. Stick w/ dyes if you must color the wood. My favorite QSWO pieces I've done were fumed with amonia which provides the color and contrast between the rays and the variatitions in the wood. To pop the figure I oiled with 50/50 BLO/paint thinner w/ Japan drier to speed up the cure. Nothing pops figure like oil. Next a coat or two of 2# cut dewaxed orange shellac warms the color and adds depth. Early on top coats were sprayed water-white gloss lacquer (Guardsman or Lilly) rubbed out to the desire sheen. Now I use Enduro poly or lac depending on the durability needed. Still use gloss and rub it out for sheen. Also avoid sanding sealers. All that silica hides the figure. I guaranty if you make some samples varying the fuming time you'll be happy with the end result.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Mark,
I think it's well worth reiterating a point already made by others:
It is advisable to finish test pieces before applying finish to a completed project.
Taking notes and labeling your test pieces is the first step on the road to reproducible finishes. In time, you will have amassed tangible proof of both your finishing successes and failures; believe me, they're both worth remembering!
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
Edited 6/28/2005 11:30 pm ET by jazzdogg
I bet you aim before you fire -- while more and more of the world is moving to the "ready-fire-aim" philosophical approach (and I am specifically excluding Mark from this).Some time back a guy I know said to me ........... "the problem with you is that by the time you're done thinking about it, I've already got the job done."I laughed, he laughed, but do you know what? Hate to admit as I do, there was a lot of truth in his remark.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Nikkiwood,
What's the old saying?
Anything worth doing, is worth doing wrong.
Mistakes are how I often learn - if I'm paying attention.
Fire! Aim. Ready?
Ready, CB...-Jazzdogg-
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
jazz,
My favorite this week is; "Never time enough to do it right; always time enough to do it over."
Cheers,
Ray
Truth is, I built a whole piece of furniture to practise (perhaps you saw my mission style bench (http://www.pbase.com/durrenm) - making the joints, then finishing.I liked what I saw and duplicated the construction and finish for the sofa table.The happy accident was when I found a blemish in the wood on the table top (almost like snipe from a planer head). It looked so bad, I sanded it out with the intention of restaining etc.After sanding, I wiped the top down with mineral spirits. The part I hadn't sanded "popped" - I was amazed. That's when I posted the question on Knots on how to make the pop permanent (afterall, I can't just keep soaking it in mineral spirits can I?)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark,
So I guess the short answer is that you now have a new trick in your finishing arsenal and have a deeper understanding of the many options available.
Sounds like a complete victory to me, even if it means a little time spent refinishing.
Congratulations,-Jazzdogg-
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
Mark,
I sugest that you try several different finishes and techniques. Find the one that really looks good to you. I use one of three methods depending on the wood, stain, and desired final luster.
Mike
Danish oil is nice... Cept...
I had to wipe down with some paint thinner ...
Yes.. and it takes off the Danish oil.. It can be a blessing if you see something that needs a little correction...
VERY little thinner and wiping down will sort of act like using a fine sandpaper between coats.. Well, I do it that way! Does not make it right... By the way.. be careful of the rag you use.. If the weave is course it can leave the weave pattern in the surface if you stop wiping and left the rag there a bit to long.. I KNOW it can! Do not ask how I know...
I find that Danish oil makes it 'look' nice BUT it is really to fragile... I find almost anything will mark the gloss...
It needs some type of harder 'overcoat'...
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