Gidday 🙂
I’m recently doing a project that I’ve finished with Minwax Wipe on Poly (Gloss) I’m wonder what process other forum members use to Rub out this Finish (Which is one of my Favourates)
I’d like to ideally get the most out of the Finish BUT dont want to go so far as the create a mirror like gloss!
What will be the effect of adding more coats of poly?
At this stage I was planning on about 6 coats finishing with wax than rubbing out with 0000 steel wool which I think will reduce some of the gloss.
Any suggestions on the best way to get the most out of this excellent finish really appreciated!
REgards Lou
Replies
You are running up against two problems. First you are using poly. Poly is designed for "toughness", particularly with respect to abrasion. It therefore is softer than many other finishes. But rubbing out a finish is a process of abrasion, and consequently it is difficult to rub out evenly. Harder finishes are much easier to rub out evenly and clearly. Nitrocellulose lacquer and shellac are both much harder and rub out much better than poly. But, since they are not as protective it may be desirable to sacrifice some ease in rubbing out. But remember, until recently almost all factory made furniture was finished with lacquer that worked pretty well in most situations. A good compromise is to use a traditional resin varnish--without the polyurethane modification. These are a bit harder and generally rub out much better. And, durability is very nearly as good as poly. They are also clearer than poly. All these resins are "plastic" but only the poly tends to look that way. Personally, I would avoid poly except on surfaces to be walked on. Poly is just a marketing gimmick in my opinion.
The second problem comes from using a wipe on finish. These leave very thin coats--a third or a quarter of the thickness of brushed on varnish. As a consequence it is more of a challenge to rub out without rubbing through. This is important for the final coat, since when you rub through you run a risk of seeing faint "contour lines" or "witness lines" at the boundaries between coats.
The other problem that affects rubbing out all finishes is not waiting long enough for the finish to completely cure. Varnish, including poly, takes about a month to cure. If you rub out before completely curing, the varnish can continue to shrink and a surface that was rubbed smooth reveals the pores and defects you previously thought were filled with finish.
lou2u,
I like to make the last one or two coats the satin finish....quite nice. As Steve points out, when I rubbed out with Liberon oooo not too much happened to the gloss finish. The satin gave me the look I wanted.
I've had excellent results with gloss Arm-R-Seal wipe on urethane rubbed out with 4F pumice. You can get it at Woodcraft and various mail order placeds. You should try everything on an unobtrusive area first.
Pete
Edited 4/23/2006 10:51 am ET by PeteBradley
Thx FellasSome sound advise here..............Appreciate the steer in the right direction & wakeup call in regards to what kind of finish I can expect to get from Poly.REgards Lou
Lou: I just went through a process of learning how to best use the minwax Wipe-On Poly, too. I had a hard time getting the Gloss to look consistent once it had built up a little. What I decided to do in the future is: One, use the satin finish; Two, only apply two or three thin coats, enough to penetrate and not enough to build up on the surface. This should protect the wood. And three, wax the finished piece and provide the customer with a can of high quality beeswax with instructions to wax it once a year. This method allows me to get through the finishing process quickly while adequately protecting the finished piece.
Bob K
I would not call 3 applications of wipe on finish near an adequate protective coat. Plus when using wipe on varnish I don't find that the finish even looks good until 4 or more coats. No doubt about it--that would be a quick way to get through the finishing process. Also, when using satin finishes you MUST continually swirly the contents in order to keep the flatting agents insuspension.Gretchen
Three coats of wipe on finish is probably less thickness than one full coat of a brush on varnish. No matter what finish is used, it is thickness that provides protection from water. True, some finishes can't tolerate being applied thickly, and thick applications certainly have a different look, but at least two coats of brushed on varnish, which is roughly 6-8 coats of wipe on varnish, are needed for significant protection. (Outdoor varnish starts at having 6 coats at a minimum.) But most situations don't really call for much protection, but you should know the trade offs between thin coatings and protection.
Gretchen: You're probably right about 3 coats being a little skimpy for a top, but it isn't for vertical surfaces. The point is that I want to stop before the finish starts to build up on the surface, and starts to look like a typical polyurethane finish, which will scratch in time. I want to go until the wood no longer absorbs the finish, then stop, let it cure, and wax it. I did that and the result looks more like the spar varnish and linseed oil finish that I have used for years. The wood feels like wood, not plastic, and you won't get the headaches of trying to rub out polyurethane. Try a sample of cherry and see if you like the way it works and looks.
Bob K
First I don't use poly so I don't need to "stop before it looks like a poly finish". Try it, you'll like it.
And even for vertical surfaces, 3 coats of wipe on isn;t enough to look good--in my opinion.
There is NO reason to use polyurethane, for heavens' sake. Anything looks better.Gretchen
I started using the wipe on poly (Minwax Satin) to get away from runs. My finishing conditions leave a lot to be desired. I've found that a minimum of five coats with steel wool between each leaves a nice surface. Each coat is better than the last and I assume that 6 or more coats would be better than 5.
Thx FellasSome great information and opionions here well worth considering. As with all things worthwhile I think I'll do a bit of experimenting and see where the journey leads me. For me the Minwax Wipe on poly Finish is one well worth having in the finishing arsenel.................and is a cut above the rest when it comes to ease of application and avoiding the typical poly look! Would be great if all continued commenting so that we can nail this finish to get the best from it!thanks to all who have contributedREgards Lou
Do you work for the Minwax marketing department?
Minwax makes a run-of-the-mill, consumer grade product, which only avoids looking much like poly if you apply so little of it as to get none of the benefits of polyurethane resin, and which would be no better than any polyurethane varnish thinned to wiping consistency. But, ANY traditional resin varnish you can find today can be thinned to wiping consistency and will look better if it is allowed to built to a protective film thickness. If you want such a very thin film for esthetic reason, MUCH better to get it with a thinned traditional resin varnish, which will be much easier to repair down the road, since it will certainly need it exactly as much as the harder to repair polyurethane film.
For me the Minwax Wipe on poly Finish is one well worth having in the finishing arsenel.................and is a cut above the rest when it comes to ease of application and avoiding the typical poly look!
I'm going to say what Steve said more succinctly. You can buy a non-poly varnish, dilute it with mineral spirits and have a far superior product and finish to that of Minwax.
If you don't like the look of poly, why on earth do you use it.Gretchen
GiddayDefinately don't work for the Minwax marketing department. My comments are more directed towards a comparison over here in Australia compared to other polyurathaine products which are generally inferior (WE dont have the Range of products you guys have to choose from unfortunately).I'm definately a finishing Novice with pleanty to learn and appreciate the 'take' on the superiority of VArnish. Regardless I still think its worth while gaining an understanding of application and use of a broad range of finishes including polyurathaine.REgards Lou
Gretchen, I'm going to direct this to you since you are the most vocal and oppinionated on this subject, but this also goes for everyone else sharing your views.
You have only marginally contributed to this discussion and minimally answered Lou's questions. As another finishing novice I find most of what you have to say nothing more than condescension. If you are going to take such a strong stance then at least give some specifics so that anyone interested in taking your advice doesn't have to continue searching out info on how to go about what you propose.
Any brands of varnish you reccomend? Does Waterlox Originial count? It is referred to as a varnish. How much thining? What is a "wipeable" consistency? What about application? Sanding/buffing in between? Lou wants assistance and has offered far more specifics regarding what he proposes to do than you have offered in your response while looking down your nose and wondering why on earth anyone would ever want to use crappy old poly.
Sorry to rant, but I was hoping to find useful info here and all I found was the typical "poly sucks" response from those more experienced finishers that know of better solutions.
Jake
Love your aka. And I wasn't the only one offering advice on using non-poly
I have used Pratt and Lambert 38 and also McCloskey's spar varnish, diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits. I use satin and am very sure to keep the mixture stirred to keep the flatting agents in suspension. I have not used Waterlox but have read that it is a good coating. I don't sand between coats, but after about 3. When I have given instructions previously I tell people that the first several coats look pretty awful, but to persevere because there is a turning point when suddenly the finish begins to "glow".Under normal conditions I can usually apply 2-3 coats of finish per day.I have used soft cotton cloths in the past but now use unembossed paper towels. The difference in using a non-poly varnish is that the finish seems to be "in" the wood and not "sitting on top of it". Sorry to be so subjective in my terminology. Hope it doesn't irritate you too much.You are free to use whatever you want. I don't care for the look of poly. And you do have to go to a real paint store to get non-poly varnish which may contribute to the feeling that it is the only kind of varnish available.
I will add that the original poster was the one who said in this thread that he didn't like the look of poly--along with others. If you don't like the look there is little reason to use it, except for the applications were poly is the best finish for the use of the piece.
Perhaps you would also be interested in where I learned this technique. I love Bob Flexner's book--highly recommend it as the other poster did. However, I have been using this technique of wipe on varnish since the 60's from a now out of print book on refinishing by Ralph Parsons Kinney. He also had the "recipe" for the Watco style wiping finish. All that is old is new again.
Yet one more reason for making your own wipe on--poly or non-poly--is not to overpay for a diluted product.
Gretchen
Edited 4/27/2006 1:31 pm ET by Gretchen
hi gretchen-i have been following your suggestion from message 29570.18 on 4/27/2006
to finish a bubinga dining table top. (i.e. P&L satin 38 varnish
diluted 50/50 to make a wipe on varnish). i have 7 coats now; i sanded
after 4, 5 and 6 with 400. it is looking very nice. a couple questions:1. how many coats do you usually aim for? i feel like i am nearing enough, but i have never used this technique. 2. after i am done applying coats, how long do you wait to rub out the
finish and what is your usual technique? thanks
dave
I don't rub out finishes so someone else will need to help you there. I usually do at least 8 applications for table tops. I can usually stop at 6 for legs and sides that won't get so much use/wear. I hope you will really like this, because it is easy and gives a beautiful result.
Gretchen
Let me make one final point. There is nothing magic about a wiping varnish. ANY OIL BASED FINISH CAN BE MADE INTO A WIPING VARNISH by mixing it with mineral spirits. The ratio is 50/50 as a starting point.
You are best off to mix your own as you then know what is in it and it is less expensive.
When the home brew wiping varnish became popular, Minwax and Watco jumped on the bandwagon and marketed their own pre-made products. However, you end up spending more for their products than you do for a full strength varnish. They are selling a thinned product for more than a full stength product. There is nothing that makes their product better than one you mix yourself.
Applying 2-3 coats of a wiping varnish is about the equivilent of one coat of full strength. 2-3 coat will also give you a reasonable facimile of an in the wood "Tung Oil Finish" similar to Formby's. Formby's is nothing more than a thinned wiping varnish and it contains no real tung oil. In other words, a thinned wiping varnish mimics very well the look of a true tung oil finish. It is actually superior to a tung oil because the varnish makes it more protective and long lasting.Howie.........
The perfect answer. All these people with there snotty opinions are wasting everybody's time that want to learn more about finishing. Goodluck Lou
Drock
Heres the kind of finish I'm getting after 3 coats of wipe on poly.............The method I have used is to wipe on a liberal amount leave for 5 minutes wipe on another liberal amount leave for 10 minutes then wipe of the excess with a clean cloth.Just for interests sake I'll post a few more after 6 coats and a final finish of pastwax.Would be fantastic if some other forum members posted a few pics of their wipe on poly technique so that we can see the outcomes!Regards Lou
First of all, that is a pretty cool looking project you've got going there. Let's see more pictures, please. Secondly, I am also a finishing novice. I do use poly among other things. While I do not love poly, it has its uses. I can also recommend Bob Flexner's book. One of the things I do like about poly (in addition to the protection my things get from my 2 and 4 year olds) is that I don't to have a chemical lab in my basement to use it. It's simple and effective. I am gradually moving away from it as I am also experimenting with things other than standard oil-based stain. One technique I can recommend with poly is (after a full month of drying) is to use swirl remover (auto polish) to buff it out. This has worked very well for my projects in creating a low luster look without the cloudiness. I certainly didn't think this technique up, and maybe some of you experts will pan this idea, but it has worked for me, and is worth a try.
Get Bob Flexner's book, Understanding Wood Finishing. Ignore all other advice.
Lou: Welcome to the world of woodworking, where differences of opinion are a constant. After all this noise, I am somewhat surprised that no one has refered you to the article in FWW #178 by Chris Minick. He put 17 different wipe-on finishes to an array of tests under controlled conditions, testing different properties like drying time, viscosity and water resistance, and proclaimed the Minwax Wipe-On the clear winner.
It was this article that convinced me to give it a try, since I had a customer who really wanted a polyurethane finish, for some reason, on the dining room table I was making for her. I also don't have a dust-free shop or spray booth. I had typically used a varnish and oil mix, thinned down so I could wipe it on, and, frankly, would not have ever considered a poly finish, either. But the results I got were pretty nice, and the convenience of application and fast drying are real pluses. Also, it seems that the formulations of stock finishing products change a lot. Watco is no longer what Watco once was, for example. And polyurethane seems to be taking on some of the properties of a classic varnish. The last time I looked at poly, wiping it on would have been inconceivable. We should all keep our minds open to change. It's part of the fun. Good luck.
Bob K
You might be interested in this thread evaluating that article. There is also a thread on this site which I cannot find because of the total inadequacy of the Prospero search function. It was equally discounted here.
http://dgroups.woodmagazine.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=3254.1&nav=messages&webtag=woodrefinishingGretchen
Wow.. That was a pretty impressive dismissal of the FWW article. Who CAN you trust?
Finishing is my least favorite part of the woodworking process, except for that moment when the first coat hits the raw wood! Trying to make a living at woodworking is hard enough without having to stop and conduct one's own experiments with finishes. So, we read and try to learn from others. This has been a good conversation, and I feel I learned something. I've never read Flexner's book, but will immediately begin to search E-Bay for a used copy! See you down the road...
Wait, wait--Flexner has just put out a revised edition of his excellent book and it would be well worth getting it instead. Unless the new one is hard cover, it is soft cover and was about $15 originally.
Gretchen
And yes, I think everyone was pretty surprised that FWW would put out such a piece. I wish someone would find the thread on this site.
Edited 4/28/2006 10:44 am ET by Gretchen
I have read 24 of the responses in this thread. Lots of good advice. Now my 2 cents.
When I do a wipe-on finish, I first apply the first 2 coats with a brush at full strength and sand between coats. This gets a build up quicker than applying several coats by wipe-on. I use gloss for all coats except the last coat if I desire satin finish. I do this because I don't want the light refracting serates in all of the coats because it may obscure the grain. I only use poly finish for surfaces that are exposed to heavy use. Resin varnish will polish better if a gloss is desired. I still am old fashioned and use pumice and rottenstone for this. I hope to soon try the automotive polishes that other woodworkers have had success with. It will be a little more expensive but I'm anxious to compare techniques.
don
That certainly will work and absolutely nothing wrong with that, but one of the reasons for many to pursue the use of a wipe on finish is that applying a full strength coat of varnish is sometimes problematic for runs, drips, or dust nibs. Wipeon is very easy to control.Gretchen
You made a good point which I was thinking about myself. Any appreciable build of satin finish will have some effect of obscuring thw wood. That's really what led me to the approach of rubbing out gloss Arm-R-Seal. It's still a matte finish, but the grain and any figure has that sharp look not unlike what you get with blonde shellac (and much more durable.Pete
Does it make sense to use gloss for the first few coats, satin for the last one or two?
--Barry
Can't hurt.Pete
Yes, it is fine to do that. The reason it "makes sense" is that you don't have to attend to the swirling to get the flatting agents into suspension. Then do the final coat with the satin finish.
Gretchen
In fact, using gloss for all but the last coat is the preferred way to go. That way, you do not obscure the grain by multiple layers of dulling flatteners.Howie.........
Howard, that exactly what I was thinking.
Lou,
I am a big fan of wipe on polys also. Try this and see if you don't like the results. I brush on Minwax poly for the first and second (if needed) coat, lightly sanding each to remove any bumps and to give the next coat some tooth. Then for the wipeon coat I have been turned on to Old Masters gelled varnish. It is really a gelled wiping poly that is much easier to apply. The brushed coats give a faster buildup of finish and the wipeon leaves a perfect finish that my customers love to run their hands over (no little bumps or dust nibs). You can find Old Masters at most True Value hardware stores. Let me know what you think after you try this.
When we are up to 32 posts on a topic I hesitate to jump in. But, as there are two products/procedures I've not seen I'll add my experience.I have limited space, and therefore do not spray. (I don't know if I would if I could.)I use Poly because most furniture I produce might be subject to some form of alcohol spill and to my knowledge, Poly is best under these conditions.I have sampled about a dozen different brands and the head and shoulders winner (IMHO) is "General" water-based, Polycrylic, available from Woodcraft. I always use Gloss to avoid the stearate dimming from multiple coats and brush it on with a high quality synthetic brush from Jeff Jewett.I thin the intial coat with about 10% water (up to 20% is acceptible with this brand) and thereafter go full strength. 2-3 coats in a day. It levels to NO BRUSH MARKS.After three coats I use a 500 grit ABRALON pad (Jeff Jewett) in a ROS. After my final coat (3, 4 or 5) I go with 1,000, 2,000 and then 4,000 grit Abralon. It begins to 'glow between 2,000 and 4,000.If I'm going for mirror finish, I follow this with a linen buffing pad/wheel and Tripoli, then follow with a cotton pad/wheel and White Diamond. Sometimes I use a 3-M auto polish but haven't seen much, if any, gain in appearance.No sweat (the literal kind) and the finish is to die for. Stop anywhere along the way if you want 'luster' rather than 'gloss'. Jerry
How much life do you get out of the Abralon?
They appear to load up, just as any sandpaper - however, I just run them over the shop vac nozzle and that cleans them right up. They are also washable and are recommended for 'wet' use, though I stay away from that.
In short, I'm still using most of my original purchases after a year.Jerry
Water borne finishes, poly or not, are essentially all acrylics. The polyurethane does give them good abrasion resistance. However, any oil based varnish including the traditional resin alkyd or phenolic varnishes will be more resistent to water and chemicals, including alcohol, than the waterborne finishes.
If that's the case, I'll ask the recipients of my work to stick to "low proof" beverages.Jerry
I think Steve is really talking about "moisture/liquid" resistance--not alcohol, per se. Non-poly varnishes are good finishes for tables, etc., that will see a lot of wear and possibly glasses placed on them.Gretchen
I'd also bet that a spilled martini left over night won't have any affect on a oil-based varnish finish, tradional resin as well as oil-based poly. On the other hand, I'd be somewhat surprised if the same test didn't show some damage to a waterborne polyurethane finish, just like I would expect some damage to a NC lacquer finish. Just because finishes contain poly doesn't mean they are very similar in performance. Waterborne is a whole different category.
I have used Minwax Wipe-On Poly for a few projects in cherry wood. To give the cherry depth I saturate the project with Old Masters penetrating oil before applying the wiping varnish (give it at least 24 hours to dry). I then apply gloss wiping varnish even if you want a satin finish. Minwax Wip-On Poly builds very slowly. I have found that I have to apply 6-7 coats to get the build that I want. However, it dries so quickly that you can apply up to three coats a day. Apply with a soft, clean cloth and very lightly sand with 400 grit after the first couple coats have dried and then 600 grit between coats (very lightly, just to get the nibs off). The last couple coats I apply using 0000 steel wool (no need to sand with 600 grit) and wipe off with a poly-charged cloth. To "finish" the finish, I apply Skidmore’s Liquid Beeswax Wood Finish with 0000 steel wool and then buff to a great satin shine.
I have used roughly the same regimen with Waterlox High Gloss which builds quicker and has a more amber appearance than the Minwax Wipe-On Poly. It still takes at least 5 coats and can be applied up to two times per day.
Wiping varnish is a foolproof way to get a spectacular finish which is easy to repair and rejuvenate. It isn't hard, but takes some patience.
And you can make your own wipe on varnish and not pay for diluted varnish. And use a higher quality of varnish to boot.
Gretchen
Edited 2/4/2008 9:56 am ET by Gretchen
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