Replies

1. 
   Alan | Jun 04, 2002 11:40pm | #1

   Keith,

   As to the glue, ten or more years ago I would probably have used epoxy too.  Nowadays, with the new poly glues I'm not so sure.  Gorilla Glue is an excellent product, which is advertised as 100% waterproof.  The only other glues that I know of that are truly waterproof are epoxy and resorcinol resin glue.  Both of the latter are two part mixes, of course, and two part products can be a pain--as I'm sure you know.  I think I would get a little Gorilla Glue and experiment to see if it had the open time I need.

   As to the finish, if you decide to use epoxy as the glue, I would advise that you get more and completely encapsulate all the wood in two or three coats of the epoxy.  Used that way epoxy forms a barrier through which water in any form cannot penetrate.  In a door that would have some desirable results:  since the door would neither absorb nor release moisture there would be no seasonal movement.  You could make the door a very tight fit knowing that it would not swell.  To make the finish pop a bit you could put on a good spar varnish.

   If you decide to use something other that epoxy as a glue (and do not want to coat the door with epoxy) then I would advise the same spar varnish.  Good spar varnish, as I'm sure you know, has ultra violet inhibitors which protect the wood.  It also remains somewhat softer than other varnishes so it can give with seasonal movement without ruining the finish.

   Alan

2. 
   user-302616 | Jun 05, 2002 05:00am | #2

   Keithrust,

                   Agree on the epoxy and spar varnish recommendation. However, I think that the WEST system literature does say that gaseous water will eventually penetrate into or escape from the wood such that the wood reaches equilibirum with the environment. That means that eventually your panels will move but the epoxy does reduce the rate of absorption such that the wood has time to adjust. So I recommend that the epoxy encapsulation be carried out carefully so that the panels are not glued to the frames by the over enthusiastic application of epoxy. This is not easy and I honestly dont know how to do it....maybe a little bit if beeswax on the edges of the panels before assembly might help. Or you could fit the panels loose and prefinish them before assembly.

               Also, the WEST system literature says that unprotected epoxy will cloud under sunlight so dont skimp on the spar varnish eventhough the epoxy coating looks great.  Get the pumps that are sold with the glue - they make mixing so much easier. Dont forget to wear gloves! System Three is supposed to be more flexible than WEST system and more forgiving under high humidity conditions. Watch out when you mix large quantities, pour out onto a roller pan after mixing so it can cool as it will heat up, smoke and even catch fire if you have it where it cant get rid of heat. Standing the bucket in a pan of water also works.

   Good luck.

   Shane

1. 
   Elcoholic | Jun 06, 2002 11:42pm | #3

   Poly for both glue and finish.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

3. 
   wbwood | Jun 07, 2002 04:51pm | #4

   Keith,

   As long as the door will not take any direct sun or other weather, I recommend using pure tung oil. Sutherlin Welles makes real good stuff. I have used it on several exterior doors. According to the mfg. their product is pure, polymerized (cooked to certain specifications to help it dry faster) tung with a very small amount of dryers (mineral spirits). They claim that the amount of dryers is below the amount that requires reporting. At least that's my limited understanding. My interest in this product has been the way it works and it has worked extremely well for me. Garret Wade carries it. There is an exterior version of this as well. If G.W. doesn't carry the exterior, you can buy direct with a purchase of 4 gallons or more.Pretty spendy, but there is a discount by buying direct.(Eme for how to get in touch if you wish.)

   This is a penetrating finish. It doesn't leave a film over the top of the wood; the wood still feels like wood, not plastic. To maintain the finish, all that is necessary is a very light 0000 steel wool rub down followed by a light coat of more tung. I have used several different brands and this one has worked the best by far for me.On a door that doesn't get any direct weather, it will probably need attention only once every 1-2yrs and it will only take an hour or so.

   As far as glue, I would use urea formaldehyde most likely. It is easy to clean up, gives a better open assembly time than pva, and is very strong. Although it is not water proof, it is highly water resistant and , presumably your door won't get wet.Epoxy is too much mess on a glue up like this, and polyurethane glue is not only too much mess, but has questionable strength. Just my opinion. Usually I use pva, but the assembly has to go fast and if you're not used to putting large doors together, you might want more time.

   One more thought, do a complete dry run of assembly so that you know how it's gonna go before the glue begins to flow. However you decide , good luck and have fun! wb

1. 
   pype | Jun 07, 2002 07:04pm | #5

   WB

   After talking to the folks at System Three (an epoxy company) yesterday, I think I am leaning toward a two-part urea glue also.  I have cut all my joinery to my typically tight tolerances and they say that epoxy is much more prone to squeeze out of tight joints and possibly give a starved joint when clamped. 

   I also had been considering a tung oil based finish.  I've not tried Sutherland Wells but know its' good reputation.  Do you think it's markedly better than Waterlox?  From your description it probably has a lower resin content than Waterlox.  Do you know if either of these do anything in the way of UV protection?

   Thanks for your response.  Keith

1. 
   wbwood | Jun 08, 2002 01:19am | #6

   Keith,

   I've never used Waterlox, so I can't say yea or nea on that. Sutherlin Welles has a few options for exterior tung oil finishes including a tung based urethane as well as tung based spar varnish and exterior tung oil with uv inhibitors and mildew resistance. I have not used these. I have to go out for now, but will get you their 800 no. so you can call directly and speak w/them.wb

1. 
   JPGrout | Jun 08, 2002 03:02am | #7

   I build doors for a living and the only glue we use is titebond 2. I know you all have great aversions to the stuff but I have yet to see a door fail using it and I can assure you we do some really complicated glue ups. You just have to-plan and doing a dry fit will show you the possible pitfalls you may encounter.

   As to finishes I used Waterlox on my personal front door and have been very pleased with it. Tung oil may be Ok if you have no weather at all (pretty hard on an exterior door), we generally recommend urethane at least and don't even think about lacquer.

1. 
   wbwood | Jun 08, 2002 05:16am | #8

   Joe,

   I mentioned in one of my previous posts that I usually use pva which is what Titebond is(II also). It's just that if you are not used to doing full sized doors, the urea resin glues like weldwood are a little more forgiving timewise and are probably just as strong.

   I've never used Waterlox, as I said before, but I've used tung oil finishes on a number of exterior doors with good results unless the exposure is extreme in which case polyurethane, spar-varnish, etc. have at least a high maintenance problem including the stripping of old finish . Nasty, in my book any way. I'd much rather use a good tung oil finish and do periodic, tolerable maintenance than the alternative. Once again, this is my opinion given my experience in woodworking.I too have made my living in woodworking, primarily making custom doors, both residential and commercial, since 1980.wb

2. 
   wbwood | Jun 08, 2002 05:22am | #9

   Keith,

   Here's the Sutherland Welles information. Phone 1 800 322 1245

   website http://www.sutherlandwelles.com

   Good Luck,wb

1. 
   pype | Jun 10, 2002 07:40pm | #10

   Joe and WB

   Thanks for the info guys.  As it turns out I have used a Lee Valley polymerized tung oil before so I am familiar with that product.  I thought the Sutherland Wells stuff you were referencing was a pure tung oil but found out otherwise after looking at a Garrett Wade catalog this weekend.

   As for the glue, I have no aversion to pva I just didn't want to feel pressured for time.   My shop will be around 85 degrees when it's time to assemble this door and with the Lee Valley GF 202 glue I usually use I just know from experience that it will be grabbing sooner than I want.  I have a urea glue (similar to Unibond) that I mix up for vacuum veneering that I know will give me a longer open time and it is a type II water resistant glue.  If Titebond II is a good glue for this application I might do a quick test  glue-up and see which one works best for my need.  Can you extend the open time of Titebond or is it even necessary?

   Thanks, Keith

4. 
   PlaneWood | Jun 10, 2002 08:45pm | #11

   Keith -  A major door company here in Houston uses Titebond II and Deft Poly with UV blockers with their Mahogany doors.  I have had one of their entrance doors for 5 years and it still looks like new.  They use stile and rail door joints and also 3/4" dowels.  The lower panels float and they stain the edges of the panels first.  However, I can detect no movement of the panels in my door.

   Their instructions call for cleaning of the door with 0000 steel wool and paint thinner every 5 years and brushing on a new coat of poly.  I haven't done that yet.

   Our door has a stain glass oval insert for the top and it is sealed between two pieces of plain glass.

   I have never had much luck with poly glue and Mahogany.  After the 2nd table top glue up separated, I quit using it.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
   PlaneWood