puttin together face frames and wondering if its necessary to glue an end-grain to side-grain joint that is held togther with screws using a craig jig. would gluing that joint provide enough extra strength to justify taking the time to mess with glue? thanks.
-alex
Replies
hey alex,
did a truckload of kitchen and bathroom cabinet face frames with the face maker and later with the kreg system and never glued a single joint. zero failure rate. once that frame is glued to the cabinets, all will be well.
eef
thanks eef. good to know.'
Those craig screws work great - and you are probably going to glue or nail the face frames to the case - no glue necessary-
SA
I use the kreg jig for face frame cabinets fairly regularly and always use glue. It seems to make it stronger than I would expect in an end grain glue joint situation. Maybe it isn't enough stronger to justify squeeze out cleanup, maybe it is. A good question to consider, but believe I'll stay with the glue for now.
Alex,
I asked Stuart Mackenzie of Kreg at a demo whether he would normally glue the joints and his response was not necessarily.
Without the benefit of lab testing, it seems to me that we have one contributor stating that he is satisfied with the strength of a frame using only screws. If we add glue, aren't we just adding some additional integrity to the joint? I can't see that it's a bad thing. I have used glue, sparingingly, and gotten nice looking joints that did not require cleanup, and have not experienced failure. I think it becomes a matter of choice- that's why we have the "tastes great-less filling" debates on all manner of subjects!
Dusty,
I really wish I could remember Stuart's exact words, but I can't. Watching his demo, I noticed that he was assembling the joints with only screws and not glue. I questioned whether that was only for demonstation purposes and if it were an actual project he would use glue. His response was not a definite "yes". Surely glue would be stronger, but not a must. That is what I understood.
"The wood will move less
"The wood will move less across the joint if glued . "
Dusty,
I think this is the key. When I am making shop-grade stuff, I often use pocket holes and don't normally glue them because it's no big deal if there is any misalignment. I know from experience that a screwed-only joint can be knocked out of (or into) alignment.
Like dusty , I use glue, to each his own
Tom
Dusty,
I don't think any one is dismissing the advantage of glueing the joint, rather the relative significance or value of redundancy in this particular instance.
The flaw in your scenario presented is that the frame pieces are typically attached mechanically at the corner, not merely attached to the to the cabinet with no mechanical attachment at the joints.
Not gluing could have an advantage in reducing any tendency for misalignment due to the additional lubrication on the surface or contamination of the surface from squeeze out.
I have glued my limited number of pocket hole joints mainly because of application - large horizontal surfaces - not because of compelling structural requirements.
Many are investing the the Kreg no glue approach to cabinet making. Time will be the judge and many of us will not hear the verdict.
Every experience posted is hopefully of value to the OP in making his/her decision.
Don
I use glue when making frames with pocket screws. The frame of this judges bench is assembled with pocket screws and glue.
Years ago, I attened a seminar by the late Tage Frid. One of the topics was dovetails and someone asked if he put glue on the end-grain of the tail piece. He said he did, and while end-grain gluing did not have a lot of strength, it added some strength and couldn't hurt. It seemed like a reasonable response to me.
Years ago, I attended a seminar by the late Tage Frid. One of the topics was dovetails and someone asked if he put glue on the end-grain of the tail piece. He said he did, and while end-grain gluing did not have a lot of strength, it added some strength and couldn't hurt. It seemed like a reasonable response to me.
and a ho de do to you too dusty,
when we speak of gluing face frame stiles and rails together, we're talking about doing so to butt joints. time has already proven this out to be a poor way of doing things. the face frames to which i referred were joined with pocket screws and then they're glued to a carcass. time has already proven this to be a good way to go. prior to the face maker system, i dowelled all of my ff joints. (and THAT with a hand-held jig...)
eef
dusty,
of course a glued butt joint will have a bit more strength. you'll get no argument from me there. i spent years dowelling. i was so freakin' relieved when that face maker system came around. our face frames surly get much of their structural integrity from being glued to the cabinet box.
fun discussion any-who.
eef
Dusty,
Again your logic eludes me. The intent is to build a face frame with screwed joints, with or without glue. Why would one remove the screws? To me you would have no face frame, therefore no discussion.
Who is the professor?
Don
hi dusty,
"the
hi dusty,
"the professor".
guessing that's me you're referring to. high school shop teachers aren't even required to get a bachelors, let alone a professorship. thanks for the compliment, just the same.
before teaching, i made cabinets for others, for a living. never advertised and never without work. so called " word of mouth", i guess. once in a while i get to see something from 20 or more years ago that i made. the face frames are fine, no joints have come apart. it is important for me to remain open minded to new and better methods of work. there have been so many exceedingly valuable ways to do things shown to me here on knots and i enjoy changing my ways accordingly. however, my dear dusty, i do not intend to start gluing my stile to rail butt joints any time soon.
fun discussion just the same.
eef
ps,
are you starting to see any canadian geese up your way yet? for the past 2 weeks i have seen upwards of 30 birds, in formation, heading your way.
I want my work to be sold in antique shops not yard sales when I am long gone. Therefore I glue it then screw it. I couldn't imagine not doing that way. Seems like a lazy shortcut to me.
I don't think furniture assembled with pocket screws will last long enough to achieve "antique" status, but this thread might just make it!
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