Has anyone out there evaluated these blades? Are they really as good as claimed? (Assuming true arbor, natch.)
If they’re good, any experience with how much ripping before they get flaky?
Thanks…
…John
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Hey John,
I imagine that forestgirl will jump on this one, but I can tell you that the Freud combination blade (LU84M) that she brought to the sawblade showdown we had at the Northwest Knotfest, stole the show.
The finish left by that rip blade was as smooth as that left by any jointer. Truely amazing.
Tom
Edited 4/16/2005 10:22 pm ET by tms
Thanks, Tom! That really is pretty nearly unbelieveable. Freud has a terrific rep to protect, and I'd not expect them to try to pull the wool - their accomplishment is to be lauded. I know full well that you folks would have wrung it out mercilessly, and I trust your evaluation implicitly. Wish I'd gotten in to this forum early enough to have planned to attend the Knotfest (I'm in central WA) - maybe I could have ground and polished the silver....Regards,---John
Tom, I have to correct you on one thing, and maybe you can edit your post: The blade was the Freud combination blade not the rip blade. We never got the rip blade on the saw. The model# was LU84M. The teflon model is LU84R.
Freud does make a glue-line rip blade, might even be better than the LU84. It's the LM74R or LM74M (the R version has the teflon coating)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks to all for info! Surprised (well, a little) to hear that Freud combo did that well. No question that good blades make a *huge* difference. Anxious to hear more of the blade standoff....
I use a Freud glueline blade on my MiniMax SC2W, to the right of the blade, not on the slider, and can glue straight from the saw (there was a discussion here a few weeks ago on this subject). Haven't used it enough to give you a durability assessment, but in my experience, useage is very hard to normalise - my 12 months before sharpening might be your 1 day. Depends on what you cut. I buy cheap rip blades to clean up recycled floorboards, nails and all, and don't expect them to last. But I save my very expensive (airmailed to the adge of the world) Freuds for the cuts that matter.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
I have been using Tenryu Gold Medal for 3 years now and like it immensely. They have the good carbide like everyone else and todays automated sharpening gets all the teeth sharpened and true for the clean cuts we want. They also have superior plates which truly make the difference in blade runout and vibration free running. I am 33 year professional cabinetmaker and have used most of the blades out there (including Freud) and find the Tenryu to be right at the top with a couple of others.
Mind naming the others?Freud is a good value but I wonder about their ability to hold sharpness.
holding sharpness is caused by a number of things, plate integrity, materials cut, and the number of miles on the blade. I dont care for Freud that much as they compromise to give you the low price. Their carbide is equal to just about everyone's but their plate technology is weak. Systimatic is good, Forrest is better, but my fav is Tenryu with tyhe Gold Medal being an exceptional blade. My experience is with hardwoods medium to high density, maple, eucalyptus and teak mostly. Hope that helps...... Aloha, Mike
Hi, Mike...Sorry to have been so long in responding. There's little Tenryu info online, and the local distributor was no help whatsoever. Soooo... I called the factory (859-282-8158) and spoke with tech rep John Lape. Very well-informed and helpful. FYI - he was kind enough to send me a full catalog. He recommended the Gold Medal, as you use, even in the face of insistent questioning about "the sacred blade" for perfect cuts - says he'll bet that the 40t Gold Medal will suffice for both rip and crosscut with super results. Further improvement possible for crosscuts using 80t Miter Pro Plus for miter saw and Precision Crosscut 80t Pro Series for table saw.Also, I trust very few saw sharpening services (had some bad experiences with idiots.) Factory recommendation is "Accurate Cut Carbide" in Utah:
Accurate Cut Carbide Inc.
North Salt Lake
Phone: (801) 292-9697
Fax: (801) 292-9704That's all I know and, as usual, more than I understand...Regards,---John
The 40T Gold Medal is my regular blade but I use Freud's LM74 for ripping.
Thanks, Bill.. Do you find the Freud to yield a better ripped surface than the Tenryu?---John
John, It may be my technique but I get some burning while ripping maple and cherry with the Tenryu but not the Freud. As far as crosscutting and sheet goods.....I really like it at a very reasonable price. Got it at Western Tool Supply.
Bill
I use the Freud LU84M blade to cut glue joints too does a perfect job
Have a nice day Lee
I've owned several. For the last 10 yrs. I've been using a Systimatic tripple chip rip. I normally work with 1"-2" domestic hardwoods. I'd say, I get at least 5000 LF on a sharpening, probably more. I do clean the blade often. If I don't mark the cut edge and stay organized, I have a hard time seeing the cut from the jointed edge.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
John,
Like Hammer, I had a Systi Matic TCG glue line rip blade. Nice blade, worked well, fairly clean edges. I thought it was a little "slow" in cutting, but I've only had a 1.5 horse Craftsman to judge against.
I know you asked about glue line rip blades, but I have to mention that my Forrest WW II did an equally nice job, and then some. It's not that you have to buy Forrest, but only to suggest that a quality blade that is not advertised as glue line rip can still do the job sufficiently. Either way, you can run a plane along the sawn edge to clean up any machining if the saw blade doesn't leave it smooth enough.
Cheers,
Seth
I would just like to make the point that good, 24 tooth rip blades have been making "glue line rips" for a number of years. I have a Freud 24 tooth full kerf, FTG grind rip blade from the 1990's that was touted as a "glue line rip blade" back then. There was no need for jointing. The newer ATB rip blades also do not require jointing.
Freud's newer 30 tooth rip blade is excellent for ripping up to 6/4 stock. The 24 tooth rip blade is excellent on 5/4 to 8/4. The Freud 50 tooth ATB&R combo blade does an excellent job ripping 4/4 stock but can cause burning on some hardwoods over 1" thick.
John,
Dittos on the Freud Glue-Line Rip blade. I have one that I use for general ripping of up to 2" stock. As another person said, I have to mark the stock as I joint it so I'm sure what I just ran through the blade. I've done glue-ups straight from the tablesaw.
Now, having said that, let me expand on my normal process. If I'm doing a critical panel glue-up, I will always go back to the jointer for a final, light pass. After aligning the pieces for the glue-up, I mark them with a triangle. When I run them through the jointer, I alternate faces; i.e., I joint one edge with the top face out and the opposing edge with the top face toward the jointer fence. This corrects for any slight mis-alignment of the fence. Yes, I check the fence with a mechanic's square to be sure it's dead-on 90*, but the process of alternating faces ensures a perfect joint if the fence happens to get bumped a bit.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill. I am not surprised that you go back to the jointer for critical joints, I was just wondering if you could help me to understand what a non-critical joint would be. To Everyone Else
If you are ripping a board and you can see the kerf behind the blade getting wider or narrower, how has the GJ rip blade helped you when the parts coming out of the saw are warped? Do you just glue and clamp the bow out of them?
"... I am not surprised that you go back to the jointer for critical joints, I was just wondering if you could help me to understand what a non-critical joint would be. ..."
Well, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a non-critical joint now that I think of it. If I'm gluing two boards for a something like a drawer front and have checked the tablesaw for square, then the GLR is probably adequate. If three or more boards are involved, I beleive it's prudent to go to the jointer.
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Hi Bill, question here. Can you see, if you look carefully enough, knife marks from your jointer? Although my jointer leaves a very nice surface, if I look real close I can still see that the edge went through the jointer. On the other hand, if my ripping technique is good, I can't see any marks on a TS ripped edge. If my experience is normal, then it sounds like using the jointer is as much to get a near-perfect 90* as it is to get a really clean edge.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
In industry the practice for at least the last 50 years has been to go directly from the saw to glue-up. They usually use straight line rip saws but utility or cabinet saws work OK, to.
My glue suppliers who formulated our glues said that a freshly sawn surface was the best for gluing, rating a jointed surface second, and a sanded surface way down the list.
In response to an earlier question, if your wood spreads or pinches the blade, that is due to a drying defect, and you might not want to glue it up at all until the stresses have been relieved. Jointing is an option, but gluing wood with drying defects or reaction wood alwayse gives me cause for concern.
Michael R
"Hi Bill, question here. Can you see, if you look carefully enough, knife marks from your jointer? Although my jointer leaves a very nice surface, if I look real close I can still see that the edge went through the jointer. On the other hand, if my ripping technique is good, I can't see any marks on a TS ripped edge. If my experience is normal, then it sounds like using the jointer is as much to get a near-perfect 90* as it is to get a really clean edge."
Jamie,
Amen to everything you said -- with one caveat. Using the "flip-flop" procedure on the jointer, the joined boards can be nothing but exactly 180* -- dead flat. Let's say you verify the jointer fence is "90*" to the table. The assumption is that if the fence is 90* the two boards will be at 180* to each other. So far, so good.
But now assume the fence/table is a "nominal 90*"; i.e. 89.85* to be exact -- one might not see that using a square. Joining two boards that were jointed face out will result in a surface that is 179.7*, not 180*. On a narrow panel, one probably can't measure the variation -- a wider panel might show a slight bow.
Now take the 89.85* fence/table adjustment and do a flip-flop (no, this isn't a political statement!). Joint board 1 in the top-out orientation; board 2 in the top-in orientation. Referencing the top face to the jointed edge, board 1 will measure 89.85*; board 2 will measure 90.15*. Puddumtagedderanwhaddayagot? Voila! 180*.
While the GJR tablesaw blade will produce a very clean edge, any variation from 90* on the blade will be compounded on additional cuts. Taking the same 89.85* reference from above and applying it to a four-board glue-up will result in a total error of 0.9* (3 joints x 0.3* per joint). Starts to take on some personality now, doesn't it? Not that I'm anal or anything (hmmm...), but I drew this up in CAD and the error in the center of a hypothetical 32" (4 x 8") panel will be 1/16".
Inquiring minds want to know.....
Hey, you asked!
And because you didn't ask, how 'bout this one? Take the same 0.15* error per pass, same 8" wide boards and keep cutting and gluing them. The result? A circle with a diameter of 341.34'. Egad! I could be doing something productive!
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Edited 4/18/2005 2:33 pm ET by BArnold
Edited 4/18/2005 2:35 pm ET by BArnold
Edited 4/18/2005 2:52 pm ET by BArnold
Someone's going to say this, so it might as well be me. No matter how good the edge is from the table saw or the jointer, aren't you always going to get a better edge by finishing up with a thin shaving from a handplane? I can understand why this isn't done in industry, just because it takes too much time, but for fine furniture work isn't it always going to give you the best edge?
"... No matter how good the edge is from the table saw or the jointer, aren't you always going to get a better edge by finishing up with a thin shaving from a handplane? ..."
Let me answer your qestion with a question: Why would the edge be better with a handplane? If I get it straight and square with a machine, why would I waste my time repeating the process by hand?
The only plane I own is a small block plane I used for cleaning up miters. Now that I have a good miter saw and blade, I haven't used it in months. Working in a commercial a couple of years ago, I saw one guy with a carload of planes; another with no planes at all. Guess who consistently had the better finished product?
I have no problem with those among us who are hand tool advocates. Like I've said before, I'm a power tool junkie. So were (are) the great furniture-makers in history. If our predecessors enjoyed power tools as they developed, why should we live in the dark ages?
Tools don't make fine furniture -- craftspersons do!
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
"Why would the edge be better with a handplane?"
I think the theory is:
1) The mechanical jointer leaves "tracks" because of the rotating blade, just as a mechanical planer does. These are eliminated by the slicing of the handplane.
2) As far as the tablesaw is concerned, I used to think my tablesaw blade left an invisible glueline as well - sometimes, at least. But having now used a handplane, I don't really think there is a comparison, certainly not day in, day out.
It's not a question of getting it square. A machine can do that. It's a question of creating two edges that are sliced so fine they fit together seamlessly.
I just recieved my Forrest 20 tooth 12" blade. I haven't used it yet but wanted to say something that sounded smart in this discussion. They now have a 40, a 30 and a 20 tooth blade. One thing I have learned is that the edge the saw leaves doesn't have to look totally great in order for the glue line not to show. Not that Forrest doesn't leave perfect edges, it's just that as the saw dulls slightly, the edge quality dimenishes.Having done quite a few bent laminations, and being some what naturally lazy, I have let very many saw marks make it to the assembly bench and have never suffered any consequence. What seems to help just as much as a really sharp blade is my vacuum fence. It's hooked up to a shop vac and sucks the thin strip tight against the fence, until the next strip pushes it through. When everything is working right, during the short time period when I'm pulling the board back for another pass, and the strip is sitting there tight against the fence with the blade spinning, no burning takes place. This is a different situation than what Bill Arnold was talking about when he mentioned the board warping during ripping as tension was released. The only thing I can think of in that case is to cut slightly oversized, joint and then cut to size. I've wished many times that I knew more about handplanes. The people that use them always seemed like the real woodworkers. Bill
Edited 4/18/2005 10:38 pm ET by Bill Lindau
<<"I've wished many times that knew more about handplanes. The people that use them always seemed like the real woodworkers. ">>Alright Bill,Quit kissin' up and show us pics. of your vacuum fence!!!Tom
Tom, I'm always happy to find an excuse to take my camera to work and to get to post pictures. It'll be tomorrow evening. Bill
20 teeth in 12" blade? That one must be for very thick stock!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Here are some pictures of my vacuum fence at work. I use it to speed up the ripping of strips for bent laminations. Having learned the hard way that thin pieces trapped between the fence and the blade tend to become projectiles that shoot straight back into the sawyers gut, before I found the vac fence I would have the strip fall as an offcut to the left of the blade. This meant moving the fence over for each cut, 1/8th inch for the saw kerf plus the thickness of the strip. The vac fence holds the strip tight against the fence while the board is pulled back for the next cut, which then pushes the strip out of the blade. Another benefit of the vac fence is that no pressure is needed to hold the board against the fence, only feeding pressure is required. So, as the strip comes out of the blade, it is held away from the rear teeth which seem to be the ones responsible for leaving all the ugly saw marks.
Forest Girl, 95% of what I cut is 8/4 or 12/4. I bought the 20 tooth blade as a hogging cutter, just to get things close, the rep told me it wouldn't leave a very smooth edge.
Vac fence is a honey, eh? They're really great for ripping thin slices on the "wrong side" (wrong per the safety gurus. Personally, I just stay aware and stand out of the line of fire...)Here's an argument, for what it's worth:
There's long been a point of disagreement/question regarding surface condition versus glue joint stability. On a small enough scale, it's certainly aguable and proveable that a multi-knife cutter will leave scallops on the surface, whether planer or jointer. However, attention to keeping machine elements in tune, edges sharp, and not feeding overly quickly will render them virtually undetectable.Dull blades can overheat, melt resins, and polish the surface so that glue uptake is inhibited. Again, sharpness is key.Today's glues are typically stronger than the wood itself, so that if scallops are present up to 3 or even 4 thousandths (big!), they'd have minimal or no practical effect on joint strength.Seems to me that the sole remaining criteria is that of appearance of the revealed glue line. If it doesn't show any unwanted deviations, then why add steps?Ain't nuthin' like a hand plane to straighten out a bad line from a saw, but careful setup and control should yield good edges in the first place. I agree completely that with milling controls exercised, the most likely real need for planing might be on finished visible edges.---John
Hey Bill,That's too cool. I take it the vacuum fence is not a Felder accessory. Did you make it yourself, or is it an after market item?I have a MM CU 300 with an extruded aluminum fence, but I'm not sure that I want to modify it.Tom
Tom, it's an aftermarket item. Here is the url :http://www.vac-u-fence.com/   that I ordered it from, although it doesn't seem to be there now. I'll look in to it tomorrow. Bill
Bill,I'm really interested in your technique. I do a fair amount of glue lamination in chair building and want to know more about your application.The way I was trained we would resaw 5-7" rough 4/4 to 3/16 strips and then widebelt to 1/8. Then to the vacuum press to make a large blank from which slats could be ripped and be sequenced for grain.Your technique seems much quicker and since I don't have a wide belt all the better. I can see it would be more of a slip match for back slats but that doesn't seem like a big sacrifice unless its a wide splat. Could even reverse half for a bookmatch effect.For what do you use the lam's and any photos of the glue ups? Also what type of glue are you using?This may be a new thread but I really am thinking about the vacuum fence now. I had seem it before but thought it was pretty useless, hadn't considered it for making laminations. The light has come on.Sorry to hammer you on this but seems like a big time saver. Only problem is my tablesaw would have problems with 12/4 but I'll be upgrading so its not a show stopper.
I haven't had any luck locating a Vac-U-fence supplier, they may have changed names. The pictures in my earlier post were of strips being cut for a bent lamination rocker out of Walnut. I use Titebond, creep never has been a problem. I'm including some pics of a finished rocker out of Curly Maple with a Bubinga strip in the middle. The maple strips are glued in the same order they came out of the board.The only sign of glue lines is where the curly grain steps from one strip to the next, due to the missing kerf. The ankles were cut from a different piece of wood for economy. The strips are glued up right from the table saw, no sanding. I'm also including a picture of bookmatched backrests. After ripping the board into strips and stacking in the original order, I arrange the strips in stacks of 4, so that I have 3 sets that are bookmatched. The middle two are a set, the two outside ones are a set,etc.
Bill,Thats really nice work. I don't know why I never considered doing laminations in that way. I knew Maloof used that technique but I just got into the habit of how I was trained. Really seems like a significant time saver.We used yellow glue as well and never had issue with creep. I'm sure it happens but the business is probably twenty years old now and they don't have chairs coming back to them.I know I saw the vacuum fence in the last month or so of surfing. Maybe thye have gone away. But it wouldn't be too big of a deal to cobble together. My weak link would be my table saw. But I'll give it a try and see what happens.Now is see the use of 5 hp in a cabinet saw. Thought that was overkill before but never really did anything over 6/4 with finish cut expectations.Thanks again.
Bill
You're vacuum fence supplier seems to have gone awol. If you track them down, do you mind letting me know?
Thanks
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 4/20/2005 6:02 am ET by kiwimac
For what it's worth, it's very simple to build your own auxiliary vacuum fence.Since you're not concerned about airflow (it's virtually zero when all the holes are covered), all that's needed is a simple frame with a solid back and perforated front. Add a port for connection to vac hose.With frame support "rails" at top and bottom, the face can be 1/4" pegboard - if it's not too tall, the backed-up pegboard won't deflect. For heavy work, you could make an alternate face of plywood with drilled holes. No joint sealing is required if all is true - flat head brass wood screws will do nicely. The holes aren't intended to move air, and can just be straight-bored with no tapers.(It's assumed that attention is paid to making the assembly flat, square, and true.)Although the picture shows large holes in the purchased fence, large holes could be a disadvantage: - - with only shop vac volume, suction would be pretty low until most of the holes were covered. (That's "backwards" - what's needed is maximum suction or negative static pressure, not maximum flow, and the only way to ensure that is to "starve" the vac by restricting inflow, thus maximizing internal negative pressure at the fence.) Using 1/4" or even 1/2" holes spaced closely together will help to ensure that vacuum is as high as possible over working area of fence. Again - air flow is of no concern - just want to be able to have enough hole area exposed to maximize vacuum force on workpiece. The same design will work perfectly well with a dust collector and reducers.If you're concerned about duplicating hole area, just count holes, figure their area, and replace with more/less small/large holes having the same total area. Smaller holes will resist airflow, and help to maintain higher suction when all the holes aren't covered.Overview:
Envision a 1-by rectangular frame, perhaps about 2-3"tall x 30"long x 1" deep, and add a solid back and perfed front. Consider a jackleg at the infeed end to provide a place for the shop vac connection hole on the backside. Perfed front is screwed to frame for ease of replacement or for cover with alternate hole spacing, back is glued. Attach as auxiliary to regular fence. It would help were the holes were pushed away a bit, more toward and extending past the blade so the suction's located where the action is.Depth isn't an issue - it would work if there were only 1/8" between front and back. From a practical standpoint, thickness needs to be enough for strength, and enough to allow shakeout of any sawdust that happens to make its way through the holes.Finally, just to make sure the air is clear - total hole area *does* make a difference. The greater the area, the greater the force exerted to hold the wood. The greater the area, the lower the developed suction if all of the holes aren't covered. Ratz - they fight each other. One trick is to use more holes (same area) but smaller diameter (resistant to flow) to maximize holding force whether fully covered or not during cutting.--- John
Edited 4/21/2005 2:37 pm ET by John
Thanks for the photos Bill. I've just printed the one showing the fence detail and have had a thought. I could drill some holes in my MiniMax extruded aluminium fence, block one end and fit a hose connection to the other, and convert it to a vacuum fence! How cool would that be!
Other readers. Has anyone done this?
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
Bill
Can you do me a great favour please - what's the spacing and diameter of the holes in your fence, and how many?
I'm seriously thinking about drilling holes in my standard MiniMax extrusion and converting it to a vauum fence.
I frequently need to rip thin strips of high value wood, and this looks like a very elegant solution to the holding problem.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
Malcolm, I was looking at my Felder stock fence today and had the same thought, it could easily be modified to become a vac fence. I'll shoot some more pics tomorrow with a tape pulled across the vac fence to give you the info you need. I've gotten to the point that I don't reinstall the stock fence when I don't need vacuum. The Vac fence works just as well for non vac purposes. Bill
Thanks Bill
I've just taken a look at my fence, and it will be easy. I'll wait until I see your next shots, maybe drill the holes and run a trial this weekend. I can see me buying a used shop vac and dedicating it just to this use.
Do you have any problems with the cut pieces getting caught as they slide past the holes? That's the only thing that might worry me.
Nice rockers, by the way - came across some photos of your work when looking at another rocker-maker's web site a few days ago. Lovely.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
Hey Malcolm,I'm interested in the same thing (CU300 Smart), although not quite as adventurous as you.
I'll be interested in seeing your results. You are going to post pictures, aren't you?Tom
Yes, I'll put up some photos. I've also been thinking about drilling and tapping some holes in my fence to allow me to bolt on supplementary fences and jigs.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
Kiwimac, I'm really looking foward to the pics, this sounds great! Would you be willing to start a new thread, just for your pics and our questions? I have a feeling it's going to be one for frequent future reference!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Yes, this does deserve a new thread. Bill's photos are useful, and Phillip has sent me a copy of a 1991 article in FWW that describes a shop-made vacuum fence. I've been thinking about a number of TS jobs I do, and can see how a vacuum fence will improve quality of cut. Remember tho that I use a slider (a MiniMax SC2W) and so my fence is on the 'wrong' side for some folks.
Look for some results soon - but maybe not until next weekend!
Cheers
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
"Phillip has sent me a copy of a 1991 article in FWW that describes a shop-made vacuum fence." Ooooooo, issue please?! I might have it in my library!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forrestgirl,
The article should be in issue #91, Dec 1991, page 51.
George
Thanks! That matches a gap in my magazine boxes, but not all the mags are currently filed, so I might have it in a stack somewhere, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Malcolm, this fence has two channels, the one being used has the vac hose on one end and a plug on the other. I'm using the channel with big holes for fat stock. The other, I assume is for sheet goods. In the configuration that I use, the smaller holes are on the top edge and they are a little uncomfortable on my hands, but none of the holes have ever snagged any wood. The suction does make feeding the stock noticeably more difficult. The black attachment that came with the fence, has a slip ring that can expose varying amounts of a hole in the black pipe, this allows for adjustment in the amount of suction. Also note how the black pipe is offset so that it doesn't interfere with the board being fed along the fence. Tell me if this helps or not. Bill
Thanks Bill
That gives me some measurements for guidance. I think I've figured out how to make a tidy plug for the near end of the channel, and an off-take for the suction at the far end.
I'll put up some shots (probably as a new subject - this topic deserves it's own archive) when I'm done.
Cheers
Malcolm
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 4/23/2005 6:58 am ET by kiwimac
"It's not a question of getting it square. A machine can do that. It's a question of creating two edges that are sliced so fine they fit together seamlessly."
Mark,
I agree with you completely - if I were joining thin panels, like a resawn and bookmatched guitar top, it would be critical to be able to sweeten the edge with a shooting board and hand plane until I can no longer visualize any gaps when butting both edges together over a lightbox.
However, if I'm gluing up two 3/4" boards, for example, the tolerances needn't be nearly so exact. When I'm test fitting boards for a typical glue-up, my decision as to whether to use a hand plane, jointer, or table saw to enable the two boards to fit together without a troublesome gap is largely one of convenience - it's not nearly as critical as when jointing thin stock or veneers.
My $0.02,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
That makes sense to me. And if you're talking about going straight from the tablesaw to glueup, I suppose it also matters what kind of saw you have and what kind of blade. A Felder with a super-good blade will probably yield a different answer than a contractor saw with a blade that hasn't been sharpened for a couple of years. Personally, I use an old cast iron Delta benchtop saw that was given to me by my grandfather, for which I have made solid stand, outfeed table and so forth. That's probably why I feel more comfortable finishing with a plane.
Also, it seems to me critical that you get the table saw blade precisely 90 degrees to the table. If you don't, or if the table is at all wavy or even if the face of the boards are imperfect, you're going to introduce a non-square angle that will prevent a perfect glueup. The handplane give you the opportunity to correct for those errors. When I really care about a glueup I first get the edge perfectly square with an edge plane, then skim the surface with a jointer.
Your $.02 were worth more than that.
"When I really care about a glueup I first get the edge perfectly square with an edge plane, then skim the surface with a jointer."
Mark,
I'm afraid you'll have to explain the logic behind that statement to me. I can fine-tune an edge with a handplane in ways far subtler than I can using my jointer - especially when used with a shooting board on thin stock - and removing less material per pass.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Sorry for the confusion. When I said "jointer" I meant "jointer plane."
This has been a great threat to follow. I learned you can glue line rip on the table saw, OR use a jointer, OR use both, OR use a plane, OR use a TS and a plane, OR use a jointer and a plane, or a TS, Jointer and plane. Somewhere in there you can use a handheld router.
Looks like one can travel many different paths on the journey to success.
Good point. However, the remarks about criticality in joint condition for edge-to-edge glueups are right on the mark, in my opinion. That extremely small edge is all there is to hold it together, and precise mating of the entire joint becomes a genuinely significant issue. The search for the perfect glueline rip blade is more oriented to the potential to save time by having to perform only one cutting operation in perparing for glueup of nominal stock. A really good blade in a really well-tuned saw will allow a really good joint for many applications .... if'n ya uses a really good glue...Using the jointer "inside-in and inside-out" is a *great* way to ensure that there's no issue with parallelism. Same can be done with a hand plane if both pieces are planed simultaneously "back-to-back" (the classic old-fashioned way.)For each joint, I think the question needs to be asked; "How critical is it regarding both strength and appearance, and what do I need to do about it?"Have a good'un...---John
No matter how good the edge is from the table saw or the jointer, aren't you always going to get a better edge by finishing up with a thin shaving from a handplane?
If you are going to be gluing it up, you'll just introduce more error by hand planing unless you use a shooting board, and you don't improve the glue bond, unless the jointer blades are dull and have burnished the wood. You can get virtually inviisible joints off a saw or a jointer with surface flatness well under half a thou. As long as a joint is stronger than the wood and almost invisible, how can it be made better?
Most people would agree that exposed edges look better with the machine marks removed, I think. I often use a plane to clean up machined surfaces that are going to show. Alternatives are scraper and sandpaper.Michael R
"You have to look for possibilities where there are none" Krenov
I bought one of those blades a few months back. It does a really nice job on hardwood. I'm with Bill on running the edges (alternating sides in/out) over the jointer before the glue up, it makes a world of difference.
The only problem I had with the blade was this: my table saw is the porter cable jobsite saw. The glue-line rip blade is 1/8" thick and that takes a bit of power, which the saw almost has, but not quite. I went out and bought a WWII thin kerf w/ the stablilizers, it works much better on the smaller saw. Also, I don't have to keep switching between rip and crosscut blades, which was getting to be a hassle.
Hi, Derek...I *hate* when that happens....Usually try to "skin" rough-cut 8/4 and above with an "Exchange-a-Blade" before milling, but that's no guarantee. Controlling all those other souls must be the source of some nervous moments for you. Do they pay for their errors by way of replacement?...And *that* is why heavy old oak pallets are great for barbecues...------------------Story---Sort of related------------
I recall that when I was a kid, a neighbor who had a perfectly good hand plane was always coming over to borrow my Dad's, as "it cuts better than mine" - and was always given the tool with a smile. Dad would dutifully sharpen the thing after its return. I always admired Dad's patience, forbearance, and generosity, but I still think that he'd have done better to have taught the guy how to fish. All his plane needed was a good sharpening - and someone to show him how to do it. Had he invested the effort to sharpen, he'd undoubtedly have been more circumspect in its use...---John
Edited 4/20/2005 2:19 pm ET by John
Because this is a school run shop, it entitles the students who are in stage design classes free reign of "my" shop. So I make sure to bill out repairs accordingly. I do have plans for this fall to actually teach some of these students the low down on tool use and maintenance. Hopefully this will help. I guess the worst of it all is that they try to save money by using used lumber. Well I'm sure you can figure out what happens then.
Derek
Tell 'em you'll get the pig if they'll save the wood to cook it ...
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled