Replies

1. 
   VeniciaL | Jan 19, 2004 10:18am | #1

   Dennis,

   A few short answers to gluing up solid doors and drawer fronts.

   Yes, the glue up you propose can be done. No, you don't need biscuits for strength of the glue joints. They don't add any. They are only useful to keep things lined up in the assembly. You could use them for that. But such glue ups need to be done with ample cauls holding everything flat and true. I'd use hot hide glue over PVA (white or yellow) to avoid creep that could occur in a door hung as yours will be. However, any decent woodworking glue will give you joints stronger than the wood itself.

   You'll need to decide whether to vary the grain direction to allow a wavy result with humidity changes, or an over-all curve of the glued up piece (a classic design decision in large glue-ups)

   (Now a longer answer)

   But your solution is not a good one. There is a reason frame and panel construction evolved.

   Your doors will be quite heavy. That's not beyond the ability of strong hinges to counter act. But there will be extra stress on the hinges and mounts and you eventually will have more maintenence problems than otherwise.

   Not only will there be cupping or undulating of the doors to deal with, there WILL be wood movement. Fortunately, (because of the way you are preparing the lumber) most of the movement will be in the direction of the thickness of the doors and drawer fronts, not their width. But there WILL be movement across the width. All the doors will change dimension horizontally (with seasons), anchored by their hinges, changing any door to door spacing, other relationships and spacings and reveals.

   The doors also may twist and give you all the problems encountered in gates made this way.

   My vote is for frame and panel. You could resaw your ash wood down to 1/2" or a little less for the panels. Or, you could resaw down to veneer thickness and glue the veneer to a stable substrate.

   VL

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/19/2004 2:20:18 AM ET by Venicia L

1. 
   DennisS | Jan 20, 2004 07:11am | #4

   Venicia -

   These are the kinds of comments I was hoping to ellicit. Thanks. Gluing up panels isn't much of an issue but what happens to them over time certainly is. I hadn't stopped to consider the weight factor - ash is pretty dense. I guess I'll look into other options. Fame & panel with the ash plywood for panels might be the best solution when all's said & done but I sure do like the look of the grain with the re-sawed material. I don't think my skill level is up to creating my own veneer at this point.

   Thanks again.

   Back to the drawing board.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

2. 
   TomT226 | Jan 19, 2004 03:40pm | #2

   Went through a similar situation with our kitchen remodel, and decided on edgebanded maple ply slab doors.

   IMHO, frame & panel doors are a holdover from times when there wasn't stable material like ply. They had to make the doors with solid wood. We use that now as a sign of quality, which is a big error.

   Also, look at all the nooks and crannies you have to clean in a panel door as opposed to a slab door. A kitchen can be a dirty place.

   You've really got to watch Ash as it moves quite a bit shich would give you some reveal problems as the seasons change.

   Don't know if you're doing inset doors and drawers, but with overlay doors you won't have as much of a problem with wood movement.

   You could go ahead and make you drawer fronts with solid wood. They're usually not big enough to have movement problems as long as you orient the grain running the length of the drawer face, and attached the drawer boxes with screws with the grain.

   If you decide on the ply doors, use a 1/4" solid wood edgeband. Really looks a lot better than the iron on stuff, and it's easy to do.

   Check with your local wood supplier for "C or B-2" grade ply.

1. 
   DennisS | Jan 20, 2004 07:17am | #5

   Tom -

   The original game plan was to use bamboo plywood (the 'horizontal' type) for frame & panel doors for the cabinets. Then I checked the price.

   I selected ash for the cabinets wanting as light a color as possible but some grain figure rather than maple. All the ash plywood I've seen around here is rather ho-hum compared to the beauty of the milled solid stock I've gotten so far.

   Agree with you about the little ledges here and there that catch dirt. One of the aesthetics of this place is to eliminate every and all dirt cathers where possible.

   Like I told Venicia -

   Back to the drawing board.

   Thanks for the reply and the information.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

1. 
   TomT226 | Jan 20, 2004 02:24pm | #7

   Go to your supplier and look at some "stain grade" (C-2) maple ply.

   I've had lots of luck with finding a large variety of grain including birdseyes, fiddleback, and other interesting stuff. Comes in 1/4", 1/2", for use in F&P doors. 1/2" Baltic Birch might be a option also.

   You can always shoot'm with a tinted WB lacquer, or CAB lacquer and achieve an even coloration without staining.

3. 
   DJK | Jan 19, 2004 06:56pm | #3

   Here is a pict. of a bathroom cabinet job I did with slab doors and drawers with the matching grain on the drawer fronts. Expect the " gap " to change with movement. I have done a number of jobs like this with good success, no warping or twisting. Select the lumber with care and all should go well.

   
1. 
   DennisS | Jan 20, 2004 07:24am | #6

   DJK -

   Excellent work. Somewhere near where I would like to be some day (grin). My design aesthetic for the woodwork in the kitchen leans more towards less figure in the grain, if that's the proper way to describe it. More straight grain or similar to what I would term vertical grain. To achieve what I'm envisioning would require milling the 8/4 S2S ash planks resawing them into 3/4" 'sticks' to create the panels. I think, based on the replies thus far, I'm asking for trouble with that many pieces in the door slab.

   Since I'm a ways away from actually making these doors, I think I'll make a test panel to see how it reacts. The biggest problem is fabricating these things out in my cold unheated shop then bringing them in to a very much drier clime in the house. I'll have to see what happens.

   Thanks for the reply and the illustration. Very, very nice work!

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

4. 
   DJK | Jan 20, 2004 05:18pm | #8

   I forgot to mention a fix for bowed doors that a friend of mine tried with success. The doors were bowed/cupped across the width. He milled two dados 1/2" deep across the back of the doors and expoxed 1/4" steel plate into the dados (after clamping the door flat). Then covered the steel with matching wood. Not an invisable repair but it's on the inside of a kitchen cabinet. One can do the same in the initial design.

   Why not keep the rough lumber indoors, then take it out to the shop for milling and bring it back inside immediatly after cutting.