Replies

1. 
   JPGrout | Jun 05, 2003 08:43am | #1

   Rob I am not going to say that what you are proposing is not feasible ,it is. What I would like to tell you is how we built up stiles in a door shop. The process was similar except we had ####pressing jig that would do about six stiles at a timemade out of steel. The frame was three 1/4" x 4" channel iron welded boxes bolted to the floor with two piece of 1/4" x 6" x6" square tubing. above the top piece of square tube we had three 1 1/4" acme threaded screws (these were adjustable feet used on scaffolding). Use was straight forward you glued the stiles together seated the top beam on the stack and then ran the screws down tight.. there wasn't a lot of room between the frame members so we had a cheater pipe we could turn the nuts with and a 3 lbs. hammer to use when the cheater pipe got in the way of the frame. Then we let them cure for a minimum of two hours and started the next set. We used regular tightbond 2 glue ( when it was hot and humid we would thin the glue about 3% by volume to extend the open time a bit). Two people working together could do 6 stiles in about six minutes if they worked together. I could do six by myself in about 10 minutes which seemed to be the outside limit before you had the glue presetting.

   Whew That was the way we started and it worked well and does to this day.

   Then I started playing with vacuum pressing on large flat panels (door skins) and I realized that you could do the same process with a vacuum bag and a high vacuum pump for a lot less investment than that mechanical press.

   If I were you I would investigate the Vacuum pressing angle. I think that you will be very pleased with the end result and the cost is not all that bad. I bought a 48" x120" bag 30 mil vinyl for about 150 dollars and the vacuum came from ebay for about 150 more. I added a vacuum chamber and a way to evacuate the bag quickly to start with using a shop vac and an automatic vacuum gauge to turn the vac on and off for another 100 dollars. So for around 400 bucks I built a press that is for more versatile than the mechanical press and we had 400 in the iron and had to pay to have the welding done which tripled the price. Think about it and if you want to pursue this avenue I could give you more info. I pretty much know every thing there is to know to do this (except the math part but I know where to find the numbers)and will gladly share.

   Joe

1. 
   robkress | Jun 05, 2003 05:47pm | #6

   Joe,

   Never even thought of a vacuum situation.  Indeed I can see that as being more versatile in the end.

   I am very familiar with the metal work that you described (I used to work in a machine shop) and it sounds like the press was a very serious one.  But I think that a metal press for me would be going too far.

   Having said that, I still need to get these boards glued.  So, yes I am interested to hear more about the vacuum stuff as I know absolutely nothing about it (where to get the bag, the pump, how it all works, etc....).  And furthermore.... math?  What math do you speak of (is this the clamping force to get the glue to properly hold?)?  Clearly there is something that I don't know about and am very glad that I asked my question as I may get a little more insight from people who know.

   If you would like to do this off the forum you can email me at [email protected].

   Thanks so much for you reply and help,

   Rob Kress

2. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 05, 2003 09:37am | #2

   Rob, Is there a reason why you can't buy 10/4 stock and machine it down to the thickness and width you need? Why do you have to glue up stock that is too thin? Slainte.

   Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

1. 
   JPGrout | Jun 05, 2003 04:57pm | #4

   Ah, Richard I just wish I had access to all the lumber that you do. 10/4?

   The largest piece of 10/4 I ever saw was a baseball bat blank. I'm not ragging on you here but he has the material and maybe it is all he has. So why not approach the issue as it is presented?

   My.02

   Joe

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 05, 2003 07:28pm | #7

   I was just curious to know why this approach was being contemplated, Joe. It wouldn't normally be my first choice because of the extra work involved perhaps leading to extra cost. Face gluing wide stock together doesn't necessarily lead to a more stable end result-- I've seen plenty of failures as a result of this technique over the decades. It might lead to additional stability, but if done incorrectly, it might not.

   Then you also have the problem of presenting a glue line and change of grain orientation to the viewer in the finished product, and how is that to be dealt with? Just some questions or potential problems that immediately flashed through my mind on first reading the question.

   Given what Rob has since said in reply, I concur with you that investing in a bag press is possibly the way to go-- about US$400 to $500 should buy a good working system (plus the cost of setting up a station where the job is to be done) but some money might need to be set aside for replacement bag vinyl(sp?) particularly as he has 'millions' of them to do, ha, ha. I can easily see a total real investment of $2,000-- $3,000 in time, materials, and equipment to set up a vacuum bag station.

   I'd also suggest considering use of a non-creeper such as urea formaldehyde as the glue rather than a PVA type, but the problem with that is a longer set up time, which can be reduced by applying heat, which requires yet further investment in equipment.

   On the other hand, if there are really that many to do, I'd investigate different glue options, ones that can be cured in a few minutes, such as the thermal assisted setting alluded to above, or a cure kicked off with an electric current. Both might aid faster throughput and more efficient use of time. Set against that of course would be the significant initial financial investment that might have to be recouped in the profits of this one job. On the other hand the real cost of the investment in the equipment might be recoverable over many similar such jobs, or by branching out and offering veneering services and bent lamination expertise, for example. Slainte.Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

1. 
   JPGrout | Jun 05, 2003 08:41pm | #8

   Richard I suppose that a lot of what Rob is going through is typical in door construction The problem I always ran into was getting stock that was thick enough, wide enough ,clear enough on two sides and straight enough to get the end product out of. When you order a 1500 BF unit of material knowing you need say 100 stiles for 50 doors, I can almost assure you that you will not meet all the above criteria. This seems to be the way that most door companies are going anyway, or at least some version of this. I have seen laminated cores with thick veneered skins, back to back glue ups as Rob is trying and even 3/4" plywood integrated into a dodoed core all at an attempt to build stable straight stiles. I agree about the urea glue except for the time factor and quite frankly the electrically cured joints is beyond the means of most. I have seen the equipment and I am impressed but find it hard to justify short of doing 1,000,000 glueups, Ha Ha. Rob is in a not so unique situation anymore. I myself am bidding a table that calls for 5" wide by 6" select alder for the leg bases and I know absolutely positively that I am going to have to get creative because the material is not cut into those dimensions and if they did It would not be stable enough. And I do not have 3 or 4 years to wait. It is unforunate but what are you going to do?

1. 
   robkress | Jun 05, 2003 10:14pm | #9

   Guys,

   All very great points and a great discussion.  You get exactly what I am going through.

   So Rugby I have thought of two more questions while I have you....

   What do you do about boards that come out of the press with a twist?  Or is that just not an option.  The only boards that go in are perfectly straight and flat.

   And secondly, do you clamp your doors to a true flat slab at glue up to ensure that they don't twist during assembly?

   Thanks,

   Rob Kress

2. 
   JPGrout | Jun 06, 2003 01:56am | #13

   "And secondly, do you clamp your doors to a true flat slab at glue up to ensure that they don't twist during assembly?"

   Richard and I had a very long discussion about flat top workbenches a while back. I await his response to that question :)

   Gluing doors is not as hard as it may seem the trick is to start flat and keep it that way. I built doors off of well situated sawhorses and had no problems as long as the horse were on the same plane. To get them right I used the stiles for the door to make them parallel and it worked fine.  You should oppose two clamps at each major rail and three at the bottom. I agree that you ought to have decent clamps for glue ups. I used 3/4" pony clamps for years and while they weren't  Bessey's they were quite serviceable.

   After clamping  a door I always set a straight edge across the door to make sure that the stiles were in alignment with the door. There were times when one of the clamps was not very tight. and the opposing one was real tight I never figured out why that was, but it didn't seem to affect the finished unit.

   I am not sure how thick you intend to finish your stock to prior to gluing but if you keep the stock about 1 1/2" and then joint and plane you will be able to save at least part of the stiles that twist. It is a sort of art to get the parts the way you want but if you oppose the growth rings and get the bows to oppose each other you will have a 95% return of straight stiles all other things considered. It seemed to be the best way to accomplish this process.

   Joe

3. 
   robkress | Jun 06, 2003 03:31am | #16

   Thanks all for your replies.  No I am not going into the door making business but do have a project that needs doing.  I'm not sure yet what I'll do but am considering all of the above comments.  Turns out that I do have access to steel tubing stock and could easily make a steel press for actually not a lot of money but the vacuum bag thing sounds nice too.

   Thanks again

   Rob Kress

4. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 06, 2003 01:33am | #11

   Joe, I was trying to get a handle on the scope of Rob's project before making suggestions. For instance, I couldn't tell if the need was for a one-off project--- there could be a call for a lot of matched doors in only one building--- or if here was a plan to get into the business of architectural door making. The opinions and suggestions I might make would vary according to the perceived need that Rob has.

   You are correct of course in that laminated stile and rail parts for such doors are more common, particularly as long clear boards are getting harder to find.  Those in it in a big way have usually got the system down, and often possess thousands of dollars worth of equipment. Another thought that crossed my mind was to come up with a hydraulic press system of some sort-- they're probably on the market already, or perhaps a mechanical wind down press similar to an old fashioned veneer press made out of steel girders and the like. I agree, the electric glue setting equipment is sure to be expensive, but if the operation is big enough, it might be worth looking at.

   Regarding your table legs, I'd do exactly the same thing-- glue up smaller sections, but as there are unlikely to be more than four or perhaps six or eight of them, and they aren't too long-- less than 3 feet probably, I'd think a series of G clamps, long reach quick release clamps, etc., would do the job efficiently enough for a one-off job. Of course, another option might be to create a hollow column mitred at the corners, perhaps with local thicknessing where joinery is going. That might create a cleaner look. Just a thought. Slainte.Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

5. 
   JPGrout | Jun 06, 2003 02:20am | #14

   Richard here is a prelimniary drawing of half the profile  Now you can see why I am not very thrilled with the prospect of building.

   I am to the point where I will probably glue up four pieces for width and then shape the profile and veneer the curved section. All ideas are welcome at this point I have to do all four like this 

   Joe

6. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 06, 2003 05:16am | #17

   Joe, I can't open your files with the .vc6 suffix. I could sort of open your Autocad .dwg in my CorelDraw 11 programme, but it didn't like it, and what showed up wasn't useful to me. Is there a chance you can change the format of your drawings to something easier for me to open, such as JPEG?

   Now as to flat workbenches-- I'm not getting into that again. I had far too much fun with posting it as a contentious topic a couple of years ago, and if anyone wants to read it, they're welcome to search in the archives. "Flat workbenches and other hoary old chestnuts," as the search terms might yield results, ha, ha. Certainly there haven't been too many threads in Knots with 'hoary old chestnuts' in the subject line. Slainte.Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

7. 
   JPGrout | Jun 06, 2003 05:50am | #18

   try this one Richard  Sorry about the size it didn't show up for squat at a small more managable size

   You will find it in the lower right corner of the screen

   I figured that hoary old chestnuts ought to be raised at least once in a while :)

   Joe

   
8. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 06, 2003 07:20am | #19

   Okay, I can see that, Joe-- it's a foot for a refectory type table. You don't have much choice but to glue up solid stock, with glue lines running vertically. I've made a few like that. I've never been fond of the core and show veneer approach. The veneer gets knocked off and damaged by feet, hoovers, etc.,  scuffing it which rather detracts from the look a few years down the line.

   In my experience the ones that look the best are the ones that don't disguise the fact that they're laminated. There are plenty of precedents going back as far as the English Tudor and Elizabethan periods-- I'm thinking bulbous turned legs, and all that heavy oak, where size was built up locally as needed. One thing that can help-- only  my opinion of course, is to get all the cupping of the end grain going all the same way, i.e., cups within cups, and selecting stock carefully.

   If I was doing this, I'd make a pattern of the upper profile out of 10 mm (3/8") MDF and use it in conjunction with a spindle moulder (shaper) and profiling head with a bottom bearing. I'd register the pattern or template from both sides and profile towards the middle of the foot. My Amana profile cutter has a cutting height of ~60 mm, I think, so from both sides of the foot I'd be able to shape most of the profile-- certainly ~120 mm of it. That's about 4-3/4" if my mental conversion factor is somewhere near.

   Naturally, there will be some handwork to complete the job, but some of those right angle returns could be predefined on things like a radial arm saw after the blank is glued up and squared again on the planing machines. That would be useful and help save some time. And naturally, you would rough out the shape with a bandsaw prior to whacking the thing over your spindle moulder. And you could set up a router, a bottom cutting bit, and a jig to clear out the corners where your spindle moulder cutter won't reach.

   You could make the foot a little fat so that your template can be screwed in place-- double sided tape probably wouldn't be my choice here, and then as a last step you would re-thickness it to remove the screw holes-- there are other dodges you could use too. The bottom doesn't need to be very fancy. Just bandsaw out the shape as near as you can-- it'll be hidden by shag pile carpeting anyway more than likely, and who's going to lift it to see what it looks like?

   Why do I feel you don't need any of this information, and you already know what you need to do? You're just poking me to see what I might come up with, aren't you, ha, ha?I'll let you work out whether drum sanders or spokeshaves, scrapers, and rasps might be useful.  I'd like a punter to throw some money at me to make a few of those feet-- business is horribly thin down here. I haven't made anything worth a fig in six months. Anyway, doing the profiling looks a bit like this. Slainte. "View Image

   Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

   Edited 6/6/2003 12:26:10 AM ET by RichardJ

9. 
   JPGrout | Jun 06, 2003 05:28pm | #20

   Thanks Richard for the replies. your synopsis is along the same lines as mine. I thought about the veneer and came to the same conclusion as you .I was thinking about the visual aspect more than the utility and you are correct I ought to be able to make the wood grain work for me.

   If I appear to be uhmmm just picking your brain I always am looking for an alternative solution to challanges and I also do not seem to have any druthers about how I get it Ha, Ha.

   No seriously I like your approach to this and will probably go with it. 

   Just a little something I may throw out there in RE: to screwing on jigs and shaping parts.  

   I have expanded my use of vacuum pressing to making jigs that I can attach utilizing a vacuum and I have had very good sucess so far with the system. The big bonus is that you have no screw holes to deal with although it occasoinally is a challange to find a way to attach and work around the vacuum attachment point.

   See there now maybe I gave you a little someting back :)

   BTW this is the first big project I have had this year to even bid on. Guess things are slow everywhere.

   Cheers Joe

10. 
    SgianDubh | Jun 07, 2003 06:57am | #21

    Uhm, vacuum hold downs and their like, Joe? Been looking at them in a disinterested sort of way via various magazines, like CWB, etc.. It's crossed my mind to add them to my armory. Always resisted the allure of their charms mostly because I only make one or two of anything.

    Still, it crossed my mind that machining the shape of your foot on the spindle moulder-- because of the reverses in the grain-- might have to be done entirely from the middle section, and outwards-- basically cutting with the grain rather than against it-- so you'd need to have a pattern that could be attached to either side of the foot.

    I don't think I need to draw a picture for you grasp the essence of what I mean. This would entail cranking the spindle moulder up to its highest setting to shape as much as you could-- after defining the initial profile from the pattern. Then, of course, you could come in from the other side with a big 3+ hp router and bottom bearing bit to get most of the rest-- and some handwork to complete the job--- maybe.

    Yup-- business in the making of furniture for paying clients really sucks here in Houston now. It has always sucked in all the years I've lived here. Luckily I'm British, and I've a few options available to me, before I get really too old and doddery to make furniture. I'm off to the old country for a job interview-- I was just invited this morning-- teaching furniture making subjects again, and if that doesn't work out, maybe I'll be able to wheedle(sp?) myself in somewhere else over there, ha, ha.

    If nothing else, maybe I'll get the chance to move away from the worlds worst climate to somewhere where it isn't always roasting hot, humid, and full of mosquitoes, ha, ha. The cold and damp off the North Sea in  GB seems very attractive to me right now-- tongue very firmly in my cheek as I type. Slainte.Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

11. 
    JPGrout | Jun 07, 2003 09:27am | #22

    I have a brother and his family living in Houston and quite frankly do not understand why anyone would subject themselves to heat and humidity. Then again cold and damp just sounds depressing too. But I digress :)

    I have thought about these legs all day and I agree with you about the grain issues and cutting with the grain. On thing I want to consider is to try shaping the interior parts of the leg before I attach the outside parts. I think this has some merit and it may even solve the issue of how to shape the leg. If the center is captured and I used it as the pattern by setting the knife and bearing up high then I believe it would save a lot of time and trouble. and I doubt I would even be concerned with part alignment if I drilled a couple of holes through the center section and blind drilled the outside parts for a reference alignment I bet I would have few if any issues with the block being square. Even if I did a couple of passes on a jointer and through a planer fixes a small misalignment

    Yes I was speaking of vacuum hold downs. I actually got interested in them after getting a job that required 300 arch top doors and was looking for a fast and repetitive system so that I could have a general laborer do the work It worked very well and the laborer thought he had moved up the ladder a couple of rungs, which was good because I know I would have been bored out of my skull after about 10 of them :)

    Anyway, I feel they have a place in my work and I even use them for jobs where I may only use the jig once or twice. If for no other reason than that it seems to work very well.

    Cheers

    Joe

12. 
    SgianDubh | Jun 07, 2003 10:15am | #23

    I'm not sure where you are going there, Joe with your thoughts? Your foot shaping job looks to be a separate task from the joinery of the leg into the foot. Mostly, a massive tenon, or a double tenon of some sort goes into the top face of the foot whilst all the blanks are still square, or cut to known angles.

    Shaping comes later, after the joinery has been executed.

    I wonder if Rob is still reading after we took his thread in a completely different direction? He's probably totally p'eed off. Slainte.Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

13. 
    JPGrout | Jun 07, 2003 05:54pm | #24

    Richard, I doubt I was clear in my description. I am not speaking of the leg joinery per se, I was referring to the fact that the shape of the foot could be done in two stages mainly because I lack enough straight shaper knives to make a 3" cut on half of the face. I can make the height ok, I have a long spindle for my shaper but only have about  2 " of matched straight shaper knives.So by shaping the center section of the foot prior to a glue up I would have a built in pattern that I could use after the rest of the joinery for the upright was performed. Then once again I could set up the spindle shaper and complete the shaping process. I think I said the same thing twice there but I believe it should work.

    I guess we should have taken this elsewhere but  Rob isn't complaining yet :)

    Cheers

    Joe

14. 
    SgianDubh | Jun 08, 2003 09:06am | #25

    I see what you mean now, Joe. Glue up and shape the top face of the central 3-1/2" inches inches or so of the total width using the shaper, add the outer parts to make up the full 6" width, and use the centre as the pattern.

    That should work, but it might be easiest to do the final shaping with a router and long half inch, or bigger if one can be found, bottom bearing bit. Using the router would make it easier and safer to climb cut thus reducing the chance of grain tear out ehere you'd normally be cutting against the grain. Slainte.Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

15. 
    JPGrout | Jun 08, 2003 04:09pm | #27

    I had also considered a flush trimming bit, especially after realizing how high the knives would be on a shaper I have a 3/4" by 2" long down shear router bit that ought to work very well. Thanks for the input Richard, four days ago I had at  concept of this but now I believe I have a handle on it. 

    Cheers Joe

16. 
    NickGianpaulo | Jun 08, 2003 03:11pm | #26

    Richard,

    Awesome pictire, looks like a task requiring a mop just in case you slip. Try putting a $275. Delta stock feeder on the shaper. Tilt the feeder so that only one wheel contacts the wood, angled 3 degrees to the tangent of the cutter rotation, 1/4" from the cutting circle. If you were to use a heavy Italian or German feeder, you could climb cut.

    Sash Guy

17. 
    SgianDubh | Jun 08, 2003 05:17pm | #28

    Yeah, ha, ha, Sash Guy. No guards, and no feeder. Actually that picture was set up specifically to illustrate a written description of shaping using patterns and jigs, with that example being a leg , so all guards were omitted for clarity-- the same sort of disclaimer as seen in all woodworking magazines, ha, ha.

    If you look again at the picture, you'll see a power feeder half hidden by my right elbow. The second point I should make is that I'd just made a new false table for the spindle moulder or shaper expressly for the purpose of doing that kind of job. Underneath the false 6mm MDF top that the work slides over is a Felder machine with a sliding table.

    Typical of that set-up, the aluminium sliding table is set half a millimetre or so above the cast iron top. The small step is just enough to snag a jig, pattern, or piece of wood as you freehand oddball shapes around a ring fence or bearing mounted cutter.

    I came up with and custom built and polished the false top to provide a smooth and flat surface, and that was its first experimental use after construction. True, I lose a little available length of cut-- about 12 mm (1/2") in total if working from both sides of a piece as Joe and I have been chewing over, but the snag free operation is much safer. Later, I bored holes in the MDF top so that the guides, guards and shroud could be bolted in place. Slainte.Website                                            The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh

2. 
   robkress | Jun 05, 2003 05:40pm | #5

   Richard,

   Yes, I could press the mill to deliver 8/4 stock rough which would be fine.  I also have another source who I wouldn't have to press but they are more money.  But the real reason that I am going to be laminating is that I will have much more stable doors than if I use solid stock.  Not that solid stock is all that bad, but it is a slight insurance policy you might say if I glue boards together for the rails and styles.  I'm expecting less movement from that type of situation.

   Thanks

   Rob Kress

3. 
   user-17340 | Jun 05, 2003 01:56pm | #3

   If there can be holes some place in the work, just get yourself a good drill and drill the two planks together with glue between them. I've used this method with crown moulding before and I was successfull

   Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec

4. 
   Elcoholic | Jun 05, 2003 11:59pm | #10

   Sounds like you're getting into the door business fairly big time.  A vacbag isn't going to do you any good for clamping those doors together.  I'd be thinking about some K-bodies or Gross-Stabil PC clamps and some 8x tube steel for cauls.  Depending on your job size and your commitment to door building a door clamping table might be the answer.  I saw some nice vertical ones with hydraulic clamping at AWFS.  With the ingenious placement of some blocks and or aforementioned tube steel it may handle your front-end laminating very nicely.  BTW I'd use plastic resin glue.

   John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

5. 
   JohnWW | Jun 06, 2003 01:41am | #12

   Rob,

   Before you spend a lot of time figuring out the proper technique, and there are a lot of them, perhaps you need to look at the basic math concerning what you are trying to do.

   If it takes ten minutes to glue up a pair of boards and you are making up five hundred glued pairs, you'll be at it for 83 hours.  Each additional minute spent per glue up will add another 8 hours of work to the job. 

   I doubt that you will be able to buy stock ready to glue up, if only because some of the boards will probably lose their flatness while they wait, possibly for days or weeks, waiting to be glued up.  If you have to joint and plane the stock before you glue it, or if you are starting from rough sawn, you'll spend most of the hypothetical ten minutes just preparing the stock.  In addition, if the clamping jig is going to be tied up waiting for the glue to set, you won't be able to make many pieces per day unless you invest in multiple jigs.

   My quick take, based on the math, is that any method that can save you a minute of time per glue up is probably worth a couple of hundred dollars if you value your time at $25 an hour.  Second, unless you're a glutton for punishment, and you have a lot of patience, I'd be looking for somebody with automated gluing equipment to sub this job out to.

   John W.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/5/2003 6:49:17 PM ET by JohnW

1. 
   JPGrout | Jun 06, 2003 02:33am | #15

   John you make some very valid points and they are indeed worth considering. 

   We did a cost effect trial over a month  one time and our conclusion was that the process was indeed profitable as long as you could average one finished door per day per employee.We had seven employees and the idea was to get seven doors per day. Our average was right at 7 doors per day so we worked on right on the fence. The only time  that a problem arose was when everyone got all jammed up in the same process and instead of doing something else ( to build a door requires a lot of gluing, stiles, rails , panels etc.) they would assist the other group or person with their work and did nothing on their own work. We tried to keep the jobs spaced out to wheree this was less of an issue but invaribly something or someone would fall between the cracks. 

   Joe